I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I am interested in finding out how and why this change took place.

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

Leo Bueno wrote:

I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I am interested in finding out how and why this change took place.

According to the Wikipedia it still goes on...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-generic

.... which prompts a question from myself. Such semi generic names are
used to label generic wine (as detailed above) yet the details there
don't really go into much detail. Both Burgundy and Claret, for
instance, are labelled "generic". Surely there is more to the style than
that that makes one wine in one category, and another elsewhere?

Dan

"Leo Bueno" wrote in message
...

I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I am interested in finding out how and why this change took place.

As far as I understand, it was International trade agreements that
fostered the change. I'm a little foggy on the details, but I seem to
remember something about the US wine market agreeing to phase out terms like
'Chablis' & 'Champagne'. I think they can still be used domesticaly, but
have been dropped from export labels.

Cheers
Mathew

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:01:37 +0100, Dan Gravell
wrote:

Leo Bueno wrote:

I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I am interested in finding out how and why this change took place.

According to the Wikipedia it still goes on...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-generic

... which prompts a question from myself. Such semi generic names are
used to label generic wine (as detailed above) yet the details there
don't really go into much detail. Both Burgundy and Claret, for
instance, are labelled "generic". Surely there is more to the style than
that that makes one wine in one category, and another elsewhere?

Dan

AFAIA, wines made in California can still be called Burgundy, Chablis,
etc. However, the TTB (successor to the BATF) requires that these
names be qualified by the addition of the appelation of origin. So
what you see are things like "California Burgundy" (an oxymoron if I
ever heard one). Oregon has outlawed the practice altogether and a
voluntary association that most Washington State wineries belong to
has also outlawed it for its members. I don't think that pressure from
France had anything to do with any of this, or at least was not a
major factor in what was done. For more information on labels, see

http://www.ttb.gov/publications/alctob_pub/p51901.pdf

Another item along the same lines is that the TTB has ruled that the
term "Johannisberg Reisling" must cease being used starting January 1,
2006. I believe this ruling *did* come as a result of some trade
agreements made with the EU.

As for the term "generic", I have always believed that it was used (in
the USA, anyway) to distinguish (generally cheap) wines that were not
labelled varietally from (generally) more expensive ones that were. I
don't believe that the term has any legal significance. No one would
call wines like Insignia, Rubicon, etc., "generic" even though they
are not labelled varietally.

As always, I am not the last word on things like this and am always
open to correction and/or further comments.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:49:23 GMT, "Mathew Kagis"
wrote:


"Leo Bueno" wrote in message
.. .

I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I am interested in finding out how and why this change took place.

As far as I understand, it was International trade agreements that
fostered the change. I'm a little foggy on the details, but I seem to
remember something about the US wine market agreeing to phase out terms like
'Chablis' & 'Champagne'. I think they can still be used domesticaly, but
have been dropped from export labels.

I don't know that they were *ever* used for export labels. In any
case, they cannot be contained on labels for wine shipped to any of
the EU countries. Even the term "Méthode Champenoise" cannot be used
on labels of sparkling wine shipped to these countries, even though
its use is common in the USA.

As far as the French (or Germans, Italians, etc.) being annoyed by
some of these things, I believe their annoyance is, to some extent,
justified. I think the people in Georgia (the US state, not the
country that was formerly part of the USSR) would be pretty ****ed off
if the French started marketing "Vidalia onions" (to cite just one
example).

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.

As far as I understand, it was International trade agreements that
fostered the change. I'm a little foggy on the details, but I seem to
remember something about the US wine market agreeing to phase out terms
like
'Chablis' & 'Champagne'. I think they can still be used domesticaly, but
have been dropped from export labels.

I don't know that they were *ever* used for export labels. In any
case, they cannot be contained on labels for wine shipped to any of
the EU countries. Even the term "Méthode Champenoise" cannot be used
on labels of sparkling wine shipped to these countries, even though
its use is common in the USA.

I seem to remember generic US 'Burgundies' & 'Chablis' on the shelves of
BC liquor stores back in the 80's.... can anyone confirm or deny?

cheers
Mathew

Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:32:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I think your language is a little tendentious here. International trade, it
seems to me needs some kind of mutual respect and discipline. It's not just
France which dislikes wine region names being used as if they were
descriptive of a type of wine. Portugal, takes a dim view of "Port" and
Madeira being treated in that way, Spain with Sherry.

Trade goes both ways, if the USA wants to export to Europe (and I'm not
talking about exporting "Burgandy" or Chablees", but computer parts and
programs), then it should take part in the GATT talks and respect their
findings. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I most sincerely hope I am, but I sometimes
get the feeling that some Americans think that USA companies should be able
to do whatever they want in international trade, because they are bigger and
better armed than their partners. At the moment, we're in the middle of
quite a serious trade war between Europe and the USA, though it may be that
your newspapers and TV news reports have failed to tell you about it.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Leo Bueno" wrote in message
...

I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I still see it in the bigger jugs, although I've never seen "Beaujolais" as
such

What trade wars? Nothing in news here other than Bill O'Reilly and French
Wine.(pricing still has not fallen).

Remember that since we produce virtually nothing here in USA trade wars have
little effect here. Computer parts even of American Companies are made
mostly in Asia and China. Boycott all you want.

I drive a Ford Expedition half the parts are from Canada and Japan. My wife
drives a Mercedes. More of it is proabably of USA parts than my Ford. Go
figure.

What trade wars are you refering to?


"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
...
Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:32:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I think your language is a little tendentious here. International trade,
it
seems to me needs some kind of mutual respect and discipline. It's not
just
France which dislikes wine region names being used as if they were
descriptive of a type of wine. Portugal, takes a dim view of "Port" and
Madeira being treated in that way, Spain with Sherry.

Trade goes both ways, if the USA wants to export to Europe (and I'm not
talking about exporting "Burgandy" or Chablees", but computer parts and
programs), then it should take part in the GATT talks and respect their
findings. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I most sincerely hope I am, but I
sometimes
get the feeling that some Americans think that USA companies should be
able
to do whatever they want in international trade, because they are bigger
and
better armed than their partners. At the moment, we're in the middle of
quite a serious trade war between Europe and the USA, though it may be
that
your newspapers and TV news reports have failed to tell you about it.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Also, I agree with you on the naming of wine regions. Even if law does not
require, there should be a certain level of respect applied here. That said
I really like a sparkling wine called Schraumsberg from Napa and they label
it a Champaigne. I like it far more than Mumm, Chandon and Domaine Canaros
that call these sparkling wines.

I drink what I like, not what they call it. I would not boycott
Schraumsberg because of the name Champaigne but I do think it is wrong to
label it as such.


"Richard Neidich" wrote in message
link.net...
What trade wars? Nothing in news here other than Bill O'Reilly and French
Wine.(pricing still has not fallen).

Remember that since we produce virtually nothing here in USA trade wars
have
little effect here. Computer parts even of American Companies are made
mostly in Asia and China. Boycott all you want.

I drive a Ford Expedition half the parts are from Canada and Japan. My
wife
drives a Mercedes. More of it is proabably of USA parts than my Ford. Go
figure.

What trade wars are you refering to?


"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
...
Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:32:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I think your language is a little tendentious here. International trade,
it
seems to me needs some kind of mutual respect and discipline. It's not
just
France which dislikes wine region names being used as if they were
descriptive of a type of wine. Portugal, takes a dim view of "Port" and
Madeira being treated in that way, Spain with Sherry.

Trade goes both ways, if the USA wants to export to Europe (and I'm not
talking about exporting "Burgandy" or Chablees", but computer parts and
programs), then it should take part in the GATT talks and respect their
findings. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I most sincerely hope I am, but I
sometimes
get the feeling that some Americans think that USA companies should be
able
to do whatever they want in international trade, because they are bigger
and
better armed than their partners. At the moment, we're in the middle of
quite a serious trade war between Europe and the USA, though it may be
that
your newspapers and TV news reports have failed to tell you about it.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Also, I agree with you on the naming of wine regions. Even if law does not
require, there should be a certain level of respect applied here. That said
I really like a sparkling wine called Schraumsberg from Napa and they label
it a Champaigne. I like it far more than Mumm, Chandon and Domaine Canaros
that call these sparkling wines.

I drink what I like, not what they call it. I would not boycott
Schraumsberg because of the name Champaigne but I do think it is wrong to
label it as such.


"Richard Neidich" wrote in message
link.net...
What trade wars? Nothing in news here other than Bill O'Reilly and French
Wine.(pricing still has not fallen).

Remember that since we produce virtually nothing here in USA trade wars
have
little effect here. Computer parts even of American Companies are made
mostly in Asia and China. Boycott all you want.

I drive a Ford Expedition half the parts are from Canada and Japan. My
wife
drives a Mercedes. More of it is proabably of USA parts than my Ford. Go
figure.

What trade wars are you refering to?


"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
...
Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:32:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I think your language is a little tendentious here. International trade,
it
seems to me needs some kind of mutual respect and discipline. It's not
just
France which dislikes wine region names being used as if they were
descriptive of a type of wine. Portugal, takes a dim view of "Port" and
Madeira being treated in that way, Spain with Sherry.

Trade goes both ways, if the USA wants to export to Europe (and I'm not
talking about exporting "Burgandy" or Chablees", but computer parts and
programs), then it should take part in the GATT talks and respect their
findings. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I most sincerely hope I am, but I
sometimes
get the feeling that some Americans think that USA companies should be
able
to do whatever they want in international trade, because they are bigger
and
better armed than their partners. At the moment, we're in the middle of
quite a serious trade war between Europe and the USA, though it may be
that
your newspapers and TV news reports have failed to tell you about it.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Also, I agree with you on the naming of wine regions. Even if law does not
require, there should be a certain level of respect applied here. That said
I really like a sparkling wine called Schraumsberg from Napa and they label
it a Champaigne. I like it far more than Mumm, Chandon and Domaine Canaros
that call these sparkling wines.

I drink what I like, not what they call it. I would not boycott
Schraumsberg because of the name Champaigne but I do think it is wrong to
label it as such.


"Richard Neidich" wrote in message
link.net...
What trade wars? Nothing in news here other than Bill O'Reilly and French
Wine.(pricing still has not fallen).

Remember that since we produce virtually nothing here in USA trade wars
have
little effect here. Computer parts even of American Companies are made
mostly in Asia and China. Boycott all you want.

I drive a Ford Expedition half the parts are from Canada and Japan. My
wife
drives a Mercedes. More of it is proabably of USA parts than my Ford. Go
figure.

What trade wars are you refering to?


"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
...
Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:32:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


I remember a couple of decades ago that many California wines (bulk
and cheap ones come to mind) were labeled as "Chablis", "Burgundy",
"Beaujolais" or "Gamay Beaujolais", etc.

This practice has stopped, I suspect in part due to political pressure
from France (yes, the same folk who were annoyed by "Goats Do Roam").

I think your language is a little tendentious here. International trade,
it
seems to me needs some kind of mutual respect and discipline. It's not
just
France which dislikes wine region names being used as if they were
descriptive of a type of wine. Portugal, takes a dim view of "Port" and
Madeira being treated in that way, Spain with Sherry.

Trade goes both ways, if the USA wants to export to Europe (and I'm not
talking about exporting "Burgandy" or Chablees", but computer parts and
programs), then it should take part in the GATT talks and respect their
findings. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I most sincerely hope I am, but I
sometimes
get the feeling that some Americans think that USA companies should be
able
to do whatever they want in international trade, because they are bigger
and
better armed than their partners. At the moment, we're in the middle of
quite a serious trade war between Europe and the USA, though it may be
that
your newspapers and TV news reports have failed to tell you about it.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Richard Neidich" wrote:

That said I really like a sparkling wine called Schraumsberg
from Napa and they label it a Champaigne.

First, they labelled it "Champagne". And second, apparently you
like it, but not seem to drink it often, because you would have
realized that they changed the labelling to "Sparkling Wine",
although they use "Methode Champenoise" (which might be illegal in
Europe, but with which designation I do not have the slightest
problem):

http://www.wilsondaniels.com/schramsberg/schramsberg_main.html

M.

"Richard Neidich" wrote:

That said I really like a sparkling wine called Schraumsberg

Schramsberg

from Napa and they label it a Champaigne.

Champagne:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/food/...de/schramsberg.
blancs.html

or

http://snipurl.com/8me2

I like it far more than Mumm, Chandon and Domaine Canaros

Carneros

that call these sparkling wines.

You might like it, but not seem to drink it often, because you
would have realized that they changed the labelling to "Sparkling
Wine". (They use "Methode Champenoise" which might be illegal in
Europe, but with which designation I do not have the slightest
problem):

http://www.wilsondaniels.com/schramsberg/schramsberg_main.html

M.

I was at Winery last week when in Napa....wine I bought reflects Champagne.
You are correct on my spelling error.

If you say they changed the labeling I think that is a good change. They
can stand on their own merrit. I think they and Roederer-Anderson Valley
are the best of California sparklers.

The wines I purchased were RD's and were old. Bottles still reflect
Champagne. Sorry :-)



"Michael Pronay" wrote in message
...
"Richard Neidich" wrote:

That said I really like a sparkling wine called Schraumsberg
from Napa and they label it a Champaigne.

First, they labelled it "Champagne". And second, apparently you
like it, but not seem to drink it often, because you would have
realized that they changed the labelling to "Sparkling Wine",
although they use "Methode Champenoise" (which might be illegal in
Europe, but with which designation I do not have the slightest
problem):

http://www.wilsondaniels.com/schramsberg/schramsberg_main.html

M.