This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering
an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 %
tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't.
I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal,
but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really
have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar
bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it
acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone?


Tricky

(Tricky) wrote in message ...
This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering
an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 %
tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't.
I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal,
but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really
have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar
bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it
acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone?


Tricky

Rule I have heard for fine restaurants: 20% on food, 10% on wine.

Marc

I usually figure 17-23% for the food, and 10% for the wine. However I do
have a minimum and maximum of $5 and $20 per bottle. If I bring my own wine,
then I only pay the corkage fee (no tip) for the wine. And should the
corkage fee exceed $25 (that has only happened once, it was $35), I subtract
the difference (the $10 in that case) from the food portion of the tip. Did
not feel too bad, since they still got 15% (base food price was $280; I was
tipping at 19%, based on slightly better than average service, so the tip
was $43.20 instead of the $53.20 they would have gotten).


Tricky wrote in message
This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering
an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 %
tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't.
I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal,
but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really
have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar
bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it
acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone?


Tricky

This has been bothering me for a while now. In the US, when ordering
an expensive bottle of wine, do you include that in your usual 15-20 %
tip? I've had people tell me they do and they don't.
I can understand if you order a $50.00 bottle, it's not a big deal,
but if you spend more than, say, $ 150.00 or so, should you really
have to give the waiter that extra 30 bucks? What about a 400 dollar
bottle? Does the waiter really expect an 80 dollar cut? Or is it
acceptable just to tip on the food? Anyone?


Those unwritten rules are just a source of troubles! I'd say if you want to
give a tip don't look at the value of your account, but ask yourself: "how
do I value the service and the kindness of this particular waiter?"

Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It
would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone.

I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to
the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of
the customer by the employee).


As a curiosity:
In Portugal we had in the seventies a revolution that took us from a right
wing dictature, almost to a left wing one (thank God we stood in between)
On those days (just after revolution) in some cafes you could find a poster
saying "Tips are a capitalistic insult to the employee"

regards
ricardo

www.portugalregional.pt

in article , Vincent at
wrote on 8/18/04 9:01 AM:

I usually figure 17-23% for the food, and 10% for the wine. However I do
have a minimum and maximum of $5 and $20 per bottle. If I bring my own wine,
then I only pay the corkage fee (no tip) for the wine. And should the
corkage fee exceed $25 (that has only happened once, it was $35), I subtract
the difference (the $10 in that case) from the food portion of the tip. Did
not feel too bad, since they still got 15% (base food price was $280; I was
tipping at 19%, based on slightly better than average service, so the tip
was $43.20 instead of the $53.20 they would have gotten).



Vincent,

I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the
corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought
process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the house
then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their
tip.

I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the
corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know.

Vincent,

I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the
corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought
process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the
house
then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their
tip.

I see what you're saying, but say - in theory - that there are two
restaurants, "A" and "B" that serve the same exact food, same service, same
prices, etc. Resaurant "A" gives the wait person the corkage fee, while
Restaurant "B" keeps the fee. The money I pay for the exact same dining
experience should not differ (the service fee I'm paying is based solely on
my experience, not for charity or any atempt to combat unfairness).

With that said however, in reality Restaurant "A" would be more likely to
have "better" wait people working for them (good waiters know which
restaurants are good to work for), thus Restaurant "B" would not be able to
match the service (and for the same food, same price, *lesser* service would
probably not be a place I frequent often). Sounds kinda Darwinian.

I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the
corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know.

That would be curious to know.

Vincent,

I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the
corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought
process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the
house
then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their
tip.

I see what you're saying, but say - in theory - that there are two
restaurants, "A" and "B" that serve the same exact food, same service, same
prices, etc. Resaurant "A" gives the wait person the corkage fee, while
Restaurant "B" keeps the fee. The money I pay for the exact same dining
experience should not differ (the service fee I'm paying is based solely on
my experience, not for charity or any atempt to combat unfairness).

With that said however, in reality Restaurant "A" would be more likely to
have "better" wait people working for them (good waiters know which
restaurants are good to work for), thus Restaurant "B" would not be able to
match the service (and for the same food, same price, *lesser* service would
probably not be a place I frequent often). Sounds kinda Darwinian.

I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the
corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know.

That would be curious to know.

Ricardo Ferreira wrote:


Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It
would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone.

I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to
the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of
the customer by the employee).

Ricardo,
TIPS = "To Insure Prompt Service" The original rationale was to
make servers' income dependent on the satisfaction of the customer. It
does strike me as condescending and paternalistic, almost relegating
servers to a serf-like relationship to the patrons. Why can't servers
be hired and fired on the basis of their job performance just as other
employees? I suspect that the major obstacle to changing the rules is
the restaurant management, who would have to pay much higher payroll tax
(right now paying income tax on tips is the responsibility of the server).

Mark Lipton
(who loves dining in Europe where such considerations are moot)

Ricardo Ferreira wrote:


Why don't people just get the fair value for their work as a salary? It
would be much easier, clear, and fair for everyone.

I've always seen tipping as either a type of charity (from the customer to
the employee) or as exploitation (both of the employee by the boss, or of
the customer by the employee).

Ricardo,
TIPS = "To Insure Prompt Service" The original rationale was to
make servers' income dependent on the satisfaction of the customer. It
does strike me as condescending and paternalistic, almost relegating
servers to a serf-like relationship to the patrons. Why can't servers
be hired and fired on the basis of their job performance just as other
employees? I suspect that the major obstacle to changing the rules is
the restaurant management, who would have to pay much higher payroll tax
(right now paying income tax on tips is the responsibility of the server).

Mark Lipton
(who loves dining in Europe where such considerations are moot)

in article , Vincent at
wrote on 8/18/04 10:15 AM:

Vincent,

I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the
corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought
process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the
house
then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their
tip.

I see what you're saying, but say - in theory - that there are two
restaurants, "A" and "B" that serve the same exact food, same service, same
prices, etc. Resaurant "A" gives the wait person the corkage fee, while
Restaurant "B" keeps the fee. The money I pay for the exact same dining
experience should not differ (the service fee I'm paying is based solely on
my experience, not for charity or any atempt to combat unfairness).

With that said however, in reality Restaurant "A" would be more likely to
have "better" wait people working for them (good waiters know which
restaurants are good to work for), thus Restaurant "B" would not be able to
match the service (and for the same food, same price, *lesser* service would
probably not be a place I frequent often). Sounds kinda Darwinian.

I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the
corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know.

That would be curious to know.


I tend to see this more from the view of the server and staff, who depend
largely on tips for a reasonable income. That's probably due, in part, to
having a sister-in-law and a daughter who have have pursued that line of
work often in their lives. Anyway, if in doubt as to who keeps the
excessive corkage fee, I would ask the server and tip accordingly.

Still hoping someone here sheds some light on the 'standard' practice in
restaurants regarding the fee. Second question added now would be whether
or not the practice is standard or can vary.

in article , Vincent at
wrote on 8/18/04 10:15 AM:

Vincent,

I think I see your logic here, but it raises the question of who gets the
corkage fee. If it goes to the the wait person I'm fine with your thought
process, though not at all sure I'd do it that way. If it goes to the
house
then the wait staff is penalized when you subtract the excess from their
tip.

I see what you're saying, but say - in theory - that there are two
restaurants, "A" and "B" that serve the same exact food, same service, same
prices, etc. Resaurant "A" gives the wait person the corkage fee, while
Restaurant "B" keeps the fee. The money I pay for the exact same dining
experience should not differ (the service fee I'm paying is based solely on
my experience, not for charity or any atempt to combat unfairness).

With that said however, in reality Restaurant "A" would be more likely to
have "better" wait people working for them (good waiters know which
restaurants are good to work for), thus Restaurant "B" would not be able to
match the service (and for the same food, same price, *lesser* service would
probably not be a place I frequent often). Sounds kinda Darwinian.

I'd bet there are people in this group who know, for sure, whether the
corkage fee becomes part of the tip. That would be educational to know.

That would be curious to know.


I tend to see this more from the view of the server and staff, who depend
largely on tips for a reasonable income. That's probably due, in part, to
having a sister-in-law and a daughter who have have pursued that line of
work often in their lives. Anyway, if in doubt as to who keeps the
excessive corkage fee, I would ask the server and tip accordingly.

Still hoping someone here sheds some light on the 'standard' practice in
restaurants regarding the fee. Second question added now would be whether
or not the practice is standard or can vary.

While I wish a different system was prevalent in US, one must deal with what
is. Having known a lot of waiters/waitresses over the years, only the most
professional in the top restuarants make what I would consider a nice living.
So I generally do not consider the tip a place to look to economize.

In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the
range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good
service. I normally include the wine in my calculation, but seldom do I order a
wine over maybe $60. If I ordered a $200 bottle, I could see the justification
of adjusting my tip to 15% of total (food & wine) even with very good service.

I seldom pay high corkage charges, on the occasions I have I've tended to
substitute my retail price for the wine for the corkage in calculation(why
should waitstaff suffer because I brought a $100 bottle that would have been
$200 on list?).

If I bring my own wine and pay no corkage (at say a place where I know the wine
director), I will tip 25% as a matter of course.

In an offline situation, where my group monopolizes a table or a room for
hours, we include a tip of 20-25% including the corkage fee as the base when
splitting costs, with everyone invited to throw in a bit extra if they wish.

I do not offer these thoughts as guidance to anyone, just as what is
comfortable to me.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

While I wish a different system was prevalent in US, one must deal with what
is. Having known a lot of waiters/waitresses over the years, only the most
professional in the top restuarants make what I would consider a nice living.
So I generally do not consider the tip a place to look to economize.

In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the
range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good
service. I normally include the wine in my calculation, but seldom do I order a
wine over maybe $60. If I ordered a $200 bottle, I could see the justification
of adjusting my tip to 15% of total (food & wine) even with very good service.

I seldom pay high corkage charges, on the occasions I have I've tended to
substitute my retail price for the wine for the corkage in calculation(why
should waitstaff suffer because I brought a $100 bottle that would have been
$200 on list?).

If I bring my own wine and pay no corkage (at say a place where I know the wine
director), I will tip 25% as a matter of course.

In an offline situation, where my group monopolizes a table or a room for
hours, we include a tip of 20-25% including the corkage fee as the base when
splitting costs, with everyone invited to throw in a bit extra if they wish.

I do not offer these thoughts as guidance to anyone, just as what is
comfortable to me.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the
range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good
service.

To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range
should be zero.

If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING??

In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right
orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is
not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very
basic standard.

I agree that a waiter would have to screw up pretty badly, or have quite an
attitude to warrant no tip, but IMO you have to have a tipping range that
encompasses such egregiously bad service.

I do not do what I have seen others do and leave a quarter - petty and small
minded. But I have called the maitre'd over and explained that I was not
tipping and why.

In a normal restaurant situation, I generally tip between 17 & 20% with the
range extending a few points in either direction for especially bad or good
service.

To me that is ridiculous - on the bottom end. The lower limit of the range
should be zero.

If someone gives you execrable service why would you give them ANYTHING??

In my view the waitstaff is paid to do the basics - manage to get the right
orders to the right table, avoid spilling hot soup in your lap etc. The tip is
not given out of duty, it is given as recognition of service ABOVE that very
basic standard.

I agree that a waiter would have to screw up pretty badly, or have quite an
attitude to warrant no tip, but IMO you have to have a tipping range that
encompasses such egregiously bad service.

I do not do what I have seen others do and leave a quarter - petty and small
minded. But I have called the maitre'd over and explained that I was not
tipping and why.