Anyone recommend any nice starting point to acquire a taste
for wine?? Nothing too expensive, but not cheapo stuff either.
A few suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

Ronan

--
"U aint leading but two things right now, Jack
and shit......and Jack just left town."

Scrawney asks,


Anyone recommend any nice starting point to acquire a taste
for wine?? Nothing too expensive, but not cheapo stuff either.
A few suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Boy, you are asking the Question of the Century.

If any of us knew for sure what beginners would like, the wine world would be
a different place!

You need to have a dialogue with a retailer, but I can say, from decades of
watching consumers, that certain "rules of the road" seem to prevail with most
audiences:

1. Keep it simple. Wines with straightforward fruit flavors and obvious yet
intriguing characters are in favor. By this I mean the presence of intriguing
fruit aromas, oak, or spice, or toastiness; flavors which reach beyond what
other beverages can provide as a flavor profile.

This is the term "complexity", which all wine professionals abhore as a
meaningless term (because it's vague), yet I maintain does signify something to
the beginner.

2. Avoid pain. Don't laugh, but many classic wines can actually be a painful
experience to the beginner. By "pain", I refer to a tartness stronger than
grapefruit juice in whites, and tannin levels (that "chewey, drying taste") in
reds that can be off-putting. For some people, an excess of alcohol in New
World wines from warm climates can also be an unpleasant experience. Modern
winemaking techniques have led to fresher, softer wines over the past 25 years,
but wine is wine, and for many, it may be an acquired taste.

Winemakers are improving the taste of wine, NOT for those who have never tasted
the stuff, but for those experienced drinkers seeking a better balance for food
and such.

In that regard, beginners have better choices now than ever before.

3. Sweetness is the "default" when appealing to less-sophisticated audiences.

Unless from a noted sweet-wine region, such as Germany, table wines the world
over are supposed to be "bone-dry", defined as having practically no
fermentable sugar.

However, rogue producers proliferate in all wine-producing countries. If the
product, classicly defined as "dry", such as a chardonnay or a zinfandel, is
perceived as being too "hard" for local sensibilities and marketability, some
fermentable sugar may be allowed to remain, in defiance of custom.

There is an unfortunate holdover descriptor from the 1970s, "mellow", which
refers to consumer-driven, easy-drinking wines of this type. Avoid them if you
intend to pursue this issue seriously. Get used to a little pain; "no pain, no
gain".

Sugar softens the acid and tannins, and makes a wine "approachable" at first
blush, but the end result may or may not be what is desired in a mealtime
setting.

At this juncture it may be wise to ask what should have been the first
question, "what is the occasion?".

As cocktail wine, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a slightly sweet
chardonnay or zinfandel. Hell, I'll even swig a white zinfandel on a hot summer
day, as a beverage, if not "wine". However, as serious dinner fare, I
withdraw my endorsement from doctored wines.

As an introductory recommendation for the beginner (and I'm sure to be slammed
by the professionals for this), I would recommend the following wine types:

WHITE

Riesling, dry, sweet, whatever. The least "painful" in taste, some of the best
German wines are 8% alcohol and smooth as silk. The best Riesling is still the
best white wine in the world.

Chardonnay, the world's commodity white wine, once (in the 1960s) as scarce as
hen's teeth, now available in all incarnations, yet still reliably of some
flavor interest, if sometimes innoucuous.

Gewurztraminer: impossible for many to pronounce (Geh-wurz-trah-MEENER), a very
floral wine with (in its best incarnations) a spicey taste, and suitable for
cocktails as well as Thai food and ham.

Viognier: a rather scarce variety of grape, which makes some intensely floral,
fuity wines in the New World. In its native Rhone Valley of France, it's a
floral, yet hot, oily-textured, different kettle of fish.

Try also the new varietals of southern Europe, which have found their way to
our tables in the past dacade: Pinot Gris (or Grigio), Rousanne, and Albarino.
You are more likely to find these wines as imports from Europe, and they make
wonderful accompaniment to seafood.

REDS:

Cabernet is King, and also the least likely to appeal to a novice at first
tasting. Cabernet is an acquired taste, what with the tannins and a cedary,
vinous aroma which is hard to define (1ST RULE OF SIMPLE WINES: have a
defineable aroma).

For simple taste associations, the obvious choice is Pinot Noir, which in its
purest form exhibits strong cherry aromas and soft mouthfeel and tannins. Good
Pinot Noir used to be so scarce 25 years ago that it was never recommended for
beginners; however, today it is commonplace, and very versatile both as a
cocktail wine and as an accompaniment to a wide range of foods.

For sheer softness and approachability (that is, if you have friends who will
simply NOT drink red wine), I offer up its "baby" sister, Gamay Beaujolais, or
Beaujolias from France (made from the Gamay grape).

Beaujolias Nouveau from France, which appears at retailers' in November and is
available throughout its first year of existance), is almost soda-pop in
simplicity, and makes a wonderful cafe guzzle.

Serious reds beyond this check-point are your own risk; but if a retailer
snuggles up to you with a friendly bottle of Syrah (or Shiraz, as it's known in
Australia), take him up on it.

By that time, you'll be "hooked" on the potential of what great wines can do
for your enjoyment of wine. You can cast off your training wheels and be on
your way.

Best of luck to you! You have presented a most interesing question to a wine
group which often gets bogged down in esoterica.

By the way, if you live in the US, any of my recommendations can be had at
entry level for quality for about 8 bucks. No need to spend more than $15 for
the best of my recommendations!

Good luck

---Bob

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 RobertsonChai wrote:
Scrawney asks,


Anyone recommend any nice starting point to acquire a taste
for wine?? Nothing too expensive, but not cheapo stuff either.
A few suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Boy, you are asking the Question of the Century.

If any of us knew for sure what beginners would like, the wine world would be
a different place!

You need to have a dialogue with a retailer, but I can say, from decades of
watching consumers, that certain "rules of the road" seem to prevail with most
audiences:

1. Keep it simple. Wines with straightforward fruit flavors and obvious yet
intriguing characters are in favor. By this I mean the presence of intriguing
fruit aromas, oak, or spice, or toastiness; flavors which reach beyond what
other beverages can provide as a flavor profile.

This is the term "complexity", which all wine professionals abhore as a
meaningless term (because it's vague), yet I maintain does signify something to
the beginner.

2. Avoid pain. Don't laugh, but many classic wines can actually be a painful
experience to the beginner. By "pain", I refer to a tartness stronger than
grapefruit juice in whites, and tannin levels (that "chewey, drying taste") in
reds that can be off-putting. For some people, an excess of alcohol in New
World wines from warm climates can also be an unpleasant experience. Modern
winemaking techniques have led to fresher, softer wines over the past 25 years,
but wine is wine, and for many, it may be an acquired taste.

Winemakers are improving the taste of wine, NOT for those who have never tasted
the stuff, but for those experienced drinkers seeking a better balance for food
and such.

In that regard, beginners have better choices now than ever before.

3. Sweetness is the "default" when appealing to less-sophisticated audiences.

Unless from a noted sweet-wine region, such as Germany, table wines the world
over are supposed to be "bone-dry", defined as having practically no
fermentable sugar.

However, rogue producers proliferate in all wine-producing countries. If the
product, classicly defined as "dry", such as a chardonnay or a zinfandel, is
perceived as being too "hard" for local sensibilities and marketability, some
fermentable sugar may be allowed to remain, in defiance of custom.

There is an unfortunate holdover descriptor from the 1970s, "mellow", which
refers to consumer-driven, easy-drinking wines of this type. Avoid them if you
intend to pursue this issue seriously. Get used to a little pain; "no pain, no
gain".

Sugar softens the acid and tannins, and makes a wine "approachable" at first
blush, but the end result may or may not be what is desired in a mealtime
setting.

At this juncture it may be wise to ask what should have been the first
question, "what is the occasion?".

As cocktail wine, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a slightly sweet
chardonnay or zinfandel. Hell, I'll even swig a white zinfandel on a hot summer
day, as a beverage, if not "wine". However, as serious dinner fare, I
withdraw my endorsement from doctored wines.

As an introductory recommendation for the beginner (and I'm sure to be slammed
by the professionals for this), I would recommend the following wine types:

WHITE

Riesling, dry, sweet, whatever. The least "painful" in taste, some of the best
German wines are 8% alcohol and smooth as silk. The best Riesling is still the
best white wine in the world.

Chardonnay, the world's commodity white wine, once (in the 1960s) as scarce as
hen's teeth, now available in all incarnations, yet still reliably of some
flavor interest, if sometimes innoucuous.

Gewurztraminer: impossible for many to pronounce (Geh-wurz-trah-MEENER), a very
floral wine with (in its best incarnations) a spicey taste, and suitable for
cocktails as well as Thai food and ham.

Viognier: a rather scarce variety of grape, which makes some intensely floral,
fuity wines in the New World. In its native Rhone Valley of France, it's a
floral, yet hot, oily-textured, different kettle of fish.

Try also the new varietals of southern Europe, which have found their way to
our tables in the past dacade: Pinot Gris (or Grigio), Rousanne, and Albarino.
You are more likely to find these wines as imports from Europe, and they make
wonderful accompaniment to seafood.

REDS:

Cabernet is King, and also the least likely to appeal to a novice at first
tasting. Cabernet is an acquired taste, what with the tannins and a cedary,
vinous aroma which is hard to define (1ST RULE OF SIMPLE WINES: have a
defineable aroma).

For simple taste associations, the obvious choice is Pinot Noir, which in its
purest form exhibits strong cherry aromas and soft mouthfeel and tannins. Good
Pinot Noir used to be so scarce 25 years ago that it was never recommended for
beginners; however, today it is commonplace, and very versatile both as a
cocktail wine and as an accompaniment to a wide range of foods.

For sheer softness and approachability (that is, if you have friends who will
simply NOT drink red wine), I offer up its "baby" sister, Gamay Beaujolais, or
Beaujolias from France (made from the Gamay grape).

Beaujolias Nouveau from France, which appears at retailers' in November and is
available throughout its first year of existance), is almost soda-pop in
simplicity, and makes a wonderful cafe guzzle.

Serious reds beyond this check-point are your own risk; but if a retailer
snuggles up to you with a friendly bottle of Syrah (or Shiraz, as it's known in
Australia), take him up on it.

By that time, you'll be "hooked" on the potential of what great wines can do
for your enjoyment of wine. You can cast off your training wheels and be on
your way.

Best of luck to you! You have presented a most interesing question to a wine
group which often gets bogged down in esoterica.

By the way, if you live in the US, any of my recommendations can be had at
entry level for quality for about 8 bucks. No need to spend more than $15 for
the best of my recommendations!

Good luck

---Bob

Much appreciated, thanks for such a comprehensive reply.

--
"U aint leading but two things right now, Jack
and shit......and Jack just left town."

Thanks Bob for a succinct and readable offering of introductory wine advice!
Maybe it belongs in an FAQ list (right after "how and how not to use
newsgroups." -- I lately assembled a very terse summary of the latter for
some email correspondents, for example).


If I might put forward one or two related observations from my own
perspective --

"RobertsonChai" in ...
. . .
You need to have a dialogue with a retailer ...

I don't believe that this point can be over-emphasized. Wine merchants have
a literally ancient tradition of seeking out wines and making the public
aware of them. They tend strongly to be wine hobbyists themselves. Wine
merchants, whose livelihood depends on satisfying their customers with
actual wine rather than, for example, on selling publications, have
historically composed (or so one of them, Coates, wrote) most of the people
to pass the notoriously difficult British Master-of-Wine examination (when I
had the numbers a decade ago, there were 13 MWs in North America and two of
them near me both worked in retail, although one of those, Peter Marks,
ended up at the Coppia center/museum in Napa).

Winemakers are improving the taste of wine, NOT for those who have
never tasted the stuff, but for those experienced drinkers ...

This may surprise observers of large US labels like K-J, Meridian, and
Fetzer (AFTER its founding family was bought out by a vast wine-spirits
conglomerate). It is easy to condclude that large manufacturers are in the
business of returning profit to their shareholders. This, in turn, favors
catering to a broad public and if reaching out to the many people in places
like the US who do not traditionally drink wine. Bob however then adds

There is an unfortunate holdover descriptor from the 1970s,
"mellow", which refers to consumer-driven, easy-drinking wines
of this type. Avoid them if you intend to pursue this issue seriously.

Get used to a little pain; "no pain, no gain".

Though some unnecessary "pain" has traditionally come accidentally to people
who reach to wines of high reputation and find them off-puttingly bitter
only because they are being opened at once whereas intended for five or ten
years of cool aging first.

Finally in contrast to "mellow," a trend _after_ the 1970s, which some
consider unfortunate too, was summarized once as follows. The population
that pays attention to, and describes wine centrally by, numerical scores in
publications is a specific and recent segment of the fine-wine-consuming
public. (Some of that segment appears unaware of this.) The very process of
following such scores distorts, demonstrably, both prices and winemaking.
(Veterans will have noted the absence of recommending this seductive,
saccharine path as an implicit cue of wisdom and experience in Bob's
advice.)


My dreigrosschen worth. (With due respect to Kurt Weill.) -- Max the
Knife

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 Max Hauser wrote:
Thanks Bob for a succinct and readable offering of introductory wine advice!
Maybe it belongs in an FAQ list (right after "how and how not to use
newsgroups." -- I lately assembled a very terse summary of the latter for
some email correspondents, for example).


If I might put forward one or two related observations from my own
perspective --

"RobertsonChai" in ...
. . .
You need to have a dialogue with a retailer ...

I don't believe that this point can be over-emphasized. Wine merchants have
a literally ancient tradition of seeking out wines and making the public
aware of them. They tend strongly to be wine hobbyists themselves. Wine
merchants, whose livelihood depends on satisfying their customers with
actual wine rather than, for example, on selling publications, have
historically composed (or so one of them, Coates, wrote) most of the people
to pass the notoriously difficult British Master-of-Wine examination (when I
had the numbers a decade ago, there were 13 MWs in North America and two of
them near me both worked in retail, although one of those, Peter Marks,
ended up at the Coppia center/museum in Napa).

Winemakers are improving the taste of wine, NOT for those who have
never tasted the stuff, but for those experienced drinkers ...

This may surprise observers of large US labels like K-J, Meridian, and
Fetzer (AFTER its founding family was bought out by a vast wine-spirits
conglomerate). It is easy to condclude that large manufacturers are in the
business of returning profit to their shareholders. This, in turn, favors
catering to a broad public and if reaching out to the many people in places
like the US who do not traditionally drink wine. Bob however then adds

There is an unfortunate holdover descriptor from the 1970s,
"mellow", which refers to consumer-driven, easy-drinking wines
of this type. Avoid them if you intend to pursue this issue seriously.

Get used to a little pain; "no pain, no gain".

Though some unnecessary "pain" has traditionally come accidentally to people
who reach to wines of high reputation and find them off-puttingly bitter
only because they are being opened at once whereas intended for five or ten
years of cool aging first.

Finally in contrast to "mellow," a trend _after_ the 1970s, which some
consider unfortunate too, was summarized once as follows. The population
that pays attention to, and describes wine centrally by, numerical scores in
publications is a specific and recent segment of the fine-wine-consuming
public. (Some of that segment appears unaware of this.) The very process of
following such scores distorts, demonstrably, both prices and winemaking.
(Veterans will have noted the absence of recommending this seductive,
saccharine path as an implicit cue of wisdom and experience in Bob's
advice.)


My dreigrosschen worth. (With due respect to Kurt Weill.) -- Max the
Knife


Well so far I've been tryin Santa Rita 120 Sauvignon Blanc, Santa Rita 120
Merlot, and some Faustino V Reserva all of which have been nice the Sauvignon
Blanc would be my personal favourite. The Faustino had a little bit of the pain
factor mentioned but as I got through the bottle I began to take a shine to it.
It was only just over 35 euros for the 3 bottles aswell which was grand.

Would anyone have a recommendation of a nice Rose to get my hands on??
Anything up to about 30 euros.

Cheers again,
Ronan

--
"U aint leading but two things right now, Jack
and shit......and Jack just left town."