I love Pinot Noir. I am new to this newsgroup, and have seen posts
about how good the Burgundies are, especially for the money. However,
I am having trouble sifting through the complexities of the naming. I
have also seen some recommendations in threads on this newsgroup with
prices, but I can't seem to get close to those prices here in the
Washington, DC area. From previous threads, I am looking for but not
finding:
Francoise & Denis Clair Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Beaune ($12)
Michel Gros Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits($13)
Michel Lafarge Bourgogne ($18)


However, I can get these...can I get some feedback on quality and
price:
1999 Baron de la Charriere Maranges Les Fuissieres $31
2001 Domaine Jean Garaudet Pommard Les Noizons $31
1998 Domaine Leroy Bourgogne Rouge $31
1999 Domaine Maillard Pere et Fils Chorey Les Beaune $24
2001 Ghislaine Barthod Bourgogne Rouge Les Bons Batons $24
1998 Louis Jadot Vosne Romanee $28
2001 Robert Chevillon Bourgogne Rouge $24
2002 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges V.V. $37 (futures from here
down)
2002 J.J. Confuron Cote de Nuits Villages $28
2002 Vincent Girardin Maranges $19
2002 Humbert Freres Bourgogne $20
2002 Gros Frere & Soeur Hautes Cotes de Nuits $21
2002 Louis Jadot: Beaune Bressandes, Beaune Greves, Beaune Theurons,
all $33

Previous posts say that I must taste first, but I don't really have
that capability (wife, kids). However, I trust this newsgroup...it
has not let me down yet!

Thanks in advance for any help in the minefield.
Andy

"radishpicker" wrote in message
om...
I love Pinot Noir. I am new to this newsgroup, and have seen posts
about how good the Burgundies are, especially for the money.

That's contrary to my experience. Buying a "Brand X" Burgundy is truly a
crapshoot. You _could_ get lucky, but usually not. Also, it'll tend to
cost you more here in the US for equivalent quality than if you were to buy
a domestic Pinot Noir - or even a decent Bordeaux.

Don't get me wrong. I _love_ good Burgundy. I just don't want to spend
that much on a regular basis for a bottle of wine. Also, unless you know
the producer, you're more likely than not to get burned. Paying a lot is no
guarantee of quality. I'd venture to say that on a per capita basis, there
are a lot more mediocre wines on the market from Burgundy than from any
other region in the world. Do some research and find the houses that
consistently make the best wines. Jadot, Leroy and Drouhin are a few names
that come to mind. If you've just won the lottery, you might try Domaine de
la Romanee Conti. :^)

Also, pay attention to the vintage years. That often makes a big
difference.

Tom S

"Tom S" in om...

. . . Buying a "Brand X" Burgundy is truly a
crapshoot. You _could_ get lucky, but usually not. Also,
it'll tend to cost you more here in the US for equivalent quality than
if you were to buy a domestic Pinot Noir ...

While supporting some of the spirit of this (the Brand-X crapshoot part )
I'll paraphrase Winston Churchill's remark on democracy as that Burgundy has
been the worst place to cultivate Pinot Noir, with the exceptions of every
other place so far tried.

Many (even in the US) would find it hard to imagine someone proposing the US
before Burgundy as Pinot sources in any sense, prior to just the last few
years. Yes, some individuals tried hard, but the overwhelming bitter
failures of California with this grape for so VERY long leave taste memories
that decades must yet clear. Now we find some remarkable Pinots from
California and, notably, Oregon and elsewhere in the US Northwest -- and how
quickly the awareness of the novelty of this is ignored.

Yes there are plenty of dogs in Burgundy if you want to find them. With
some 80 times as many Pinot labels than the US has, there are mediocrities,
and wonders, enough for all who will bother to learn about them.

Also, unless you know
the producer, you're more likely than not to get burned.

No! Thank goodness the US has no such issue. :-) :-) :-)

Do some research

I agree, it always pays.

If you've just won the lottery, you might try Domaine de la Romanee Conti.
:^)

DRC's Echézeaux in 2000 sold for around $160 in the US. That can be
compared to hyped California Cabernets with rather less track record and is
cheap against some instantly fashionable, numerically publicized Bordeaux.
O tempora, o mores ...

In article ,
(radishpicker) writes:

I love Pinot Noir. I am new to this newsgroup, and have seen posts
about how good the Burgundies are, especially for the money.

Tom & I are going to have different opinions on this, obviously. I personally
think there are some under-$20 Burgs that blow away anything from California
(or to a lesser extent Oregon). Tom thinks differently. I think it comes down
to what you want from your Pinot Noir. The words I think of to describe a
Lafarge Bourgogne are "crisp, transparent, clean fruit, minerally", etc. Tom
would probably describe the same wine as "thin, acidic." A Russian River Valley
Pinot to Tom is probably "bursting with fruit", to me it's "fat, overblown."
Sorry to put words in your mouth, Tom, especially if I'm wrong. I just wanted
to point out that loving PN (if you have had mostly RRV examples) doesn't
neccesarily translate to loving Burgundy.


However, I can get these...can I get some feedback on quality and
price:
1999 Baron de la Charriere Maranges Les Fuissieres $31
1999 Domaine Maillard Pere et Fils Chorey Les Beaune $24

Good year, but I don't know producers (which is most important part) and that's
steep for Maranges and Chorey.

1998 Domaine Leroy Bourgogne Rouge $31
If this is truly Domaine (not Maison - the negociant wine is generally good but
not outstanding) probably very good, though $31 for a basic Bourgogne is just
too high to me.

2001 Ghislaine Barthod Bourgogne Rouge Les Bons Batons $24
Good producer. A little steep, this wine is $18 in NY (Astor).

1998 Louis Jadot Vosne Romanee $28
I wouldn't start a Burg experiment with a '98, wildly variable year. And many
are quite closed at moment

2001 Robert Chevillon Bourgogne Rouge $24
Great producer. A couple dollars high, but would be my choice from this list.
It's $16 at Sam's in Chicago.

2002 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges V.V. $37 (futures from here
down)
2002 J.J. Confuron Cote de Nuits Villages $28
2002 Vincent Girardin Maranges $19
2002 Humbert Freres Bourgogne $20
2002 Gros Frere & Soeur Hautes Cotes de Nuits $21
2002 Louis Jadot: Beaune Bressandes, Beaune Greves, Beaune Theurons,
all $33

I don't know anything about 2002s. If it was my money,I'd go for the Chevillon.
The Girardin might be closer to a CA style (more fruit forward, a little more
oak), but usually good. The Gros family is VERY confusing, but I don't think
Frere & Souer is at the top (Anne has no involvement); but I think Clive Coates
likes that wine. I'd stay away from the Humbert Freres - I've never even heard
of producer, and obscure producers' AC wines are worse than a
crapshoot/minefield, it's near certain death.

Good luck with the crapshoot!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 23 Mar 2004 14:25:54 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

In article ,
(radishpicker) writes:


1999 Baron de la Charriere Maranges Les Fuissieres $31

2002 Vincent Girardin Maranges $19

The Girardin might be closer to a CA style (more fruit forward, a little more
oak), but usually good.

In the UK Baron de la Charriere is another label (Oddbin's) for
Giradin. As Dale says, supposedly good, and more new-world style than
most Burgs.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

In the UK Baron de la Charriere is another label (Oddbin's) for
Giradin. As Dale says, supposedly good, and more new-world style than
most Burgs.

Aha! Thanks for info.

If DC choices are not up to snuff, you might consider ordering from NY, CA, or
maybe Sam's. Savings on taxes would offset shipping.

Not usually a beat-down-the-door place for prices, the Burgundy Wine Company
(www.burgundywinecompany.com) in NY has astute selection & impeccable storage.
An interesting offer showed in my new mail box 5 minutes ago:

BURGUNDY 101

Want a refresher course in why you drink Burgundy? If you think it's just for
the life altering experience of drinking an older La Tache, then you need to
get back to the basics. Yes - that may be the epitome of Burgundian pleasure,
but most of us gravitated to Burgundy because, at its most basic level, it
offers the purest Pinot fruit produced anywhere in the world, it has balance,
food friendly acidity and a bit of complexity at every level. And equally
important, dollar for dollar, it's a more complete wine than any of the
"wanabees". Rediscover your wine roots - try a Bourgogne Rouge. It won't
replace La Tache, but it should replace the "value" wines you open every day.

2001 Bourgogne Rouge Mix (2 Btls Each - 15% Off) 210.75
Mix it up. Chose two bottles of each, or design your own selection. We'll take
15% off mixed cases of the following wines (four bottle limit per wine/per case
for special price).

2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Denis Bachelet 23.00
Denis Bachelet's smile said it all when he poured this wine. Sillky black
cherries, juicy and delicious. There's real depth and palate presence here.
(We're waiting for an updated ETA from our importer.)

2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Sylvie Esmonin 19.95
Very pretty with lots of cherries and spice. So easy and delightful we offer it
with this caution: don't slurp it down - it will blossom in the glass. Or, if
you're the impatient type, carafe it for a shot of air.

2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Faiveley 16.50
Francois Faively considers Bourgogne the introduction to his wines, and takes
it very seriously. Terrific Pinot fruit and personality with the structure to
develop in bottle for a couple of years.

2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Fichet 18.50
Though known for his scrumptious whites, Fichet produces a Bourgogne Rouge
that's a real charmer, with lots of sweet black cherries that simply glide
across the palate. It's a wine of modest proportions, but enormous pleasure.

2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Lafarge 24.00
A more serious Bourgogne that requires another year in bottle to blossom.
Restrained and compact at last tasting, it revealed sweet red and black berried
fruits, good depth and balance. The components are there, a little patience
required.

2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Maltroye 22.00
Vibrant, juicy and serious, this wine reflects Jean-Pierre Cornu's
perfectionist approach. Very drinkable now, it will develop well with a year or
two in bottle. As a side note, there's a bit of village Chassagne rouge in the
blend. It's super!

Hopefully no one will regard this as a commercial post, as I am unaffliated,
just an occasional customer.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(radishpicker) writes:

However, I can get these...can I get some feedback on quality and
price:
1999 Baron de la Charriere Maranges Les Fuissieres $31

Good year, but I don't know producers (which is most important part) and that's
steep for Maranges and Chorey.

Baron de la Charriere is, I believe, a 2nd label of Vincent Girardin.
I've enjoyed his Maranges in the past, but agree $31 is a bit steep.

Peter Masters

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(radishpicker) writes:

I love Pinot Noir. I am new to this newsgroup, and have seen posts
about how good the Burgundies are, especially for the money.

Tom & I are going to have different opinions on this, obviously. I personally
think there are some under-$20 Burgs that blow away anything from California
(or to a lesser extent Oregon). Tom thinks differently. I think it comes down
to what you want from your Pinot Noir. The words I think of to describe a
Lafarge Bourgogne are "crisp, transparent, clean fruit, minerally", etc. Tom
would probably describe the same wine as "thin, acidic." A Russian River Valley
Pinot to Tom is probably "bursting with fruit", to me it's "fat, overblown."
Sorry to put words in your mouth, Tom, especially if I'm wrong. I just wanted
to point out that loving PN (if you have had mostly RRV examples) doesn't
neccesarily translate to loving Burgundy.

My thinking tends toward the following...
if I'm going to spend under $30 CAD (say under ~20 USD) on Pinot Noir
or Chardonnay, I'm going outside Burgundy. I don't want to hunt
forever to find the diamonds in the rough in Burgundy at that price
range.
Above that price, research and ideally tasting before buying is
paramount, but I'll go with Burgundy. If I'm going to splurge on PN or
Chard, for me only Burgundy can justify the price (sometimes).


snip


2002 Louis Jadot: Beaune Bressandes, Beaune Greves, Beaune Theurons,
all $33


Good luck with the crapshoot!
Dale

1998 Domaine Leroy Bourgogne Rouge $31
--------------
From Dale:
If this is truly Domaine (not Maison - the negociant wine is
generally good but not outstanding) probably very good, though $31 for a
basic Bourgogne is just too high to me

What a difference a couple years make. I brought a 1996 Bourgogne from
Domaine Leroy in 1999 for $14.95 and my notes describe it as excellent.
Another deal from Premier Cru.

Steve Solomon

(radishpicker) wrote in message . com...
I love Pinot Noir. I am new to this newsgroup, and have seen posts
about how good the Burgundies are, especially for the money. However,
I am having trouble sifting through the complexities of the naming. I
have also seen some recommendations in threads on this newsgroup with
prices, but I can't seem to get close to those prices here in the
Washington, DC area. From previous threads, I am looking for but not
finding:
Francoise & Denis Clair Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Beaune ($12)
Michel Gros Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits($13)
Michel Lafarge Bourgogne ($18)


However, I can get these...can I get some feedback on quality and
price:
1999 Baron de la Charriere Maranges Les Fuissieres $31
2001 Domaine Jean Garaudet Pommard Les Noizons $31
1998 Domaine Leroy Bourgogne Rouge $31
1999 Domaine Maillard Pere et Fils Chorey Les Beaune $24
2001 Ghislaine Barthod Bourgogne Rouge Les Bons Batons $24
1998 Louis Jadot Vosne Romanee $28
2001 Robert Chevillon Bourgogne Rouge $24
2002 Robert Chevillon Nuits St. Georges V.V. $37 (futures from here
down)
2002 J.J. Confuron Cote de Nuits Villages $28
2002 Vincent Girardin Maranges $19
2002 Humbert Freres Bourgogne $20
2002 Gros Frere & Soeur Hautes Cotes de Nuits $21
2002 Louis Jadot: Beaune Bressandes, Beaune Greves, Beaune Theurons,
all $33

Previous posts say that I must taste first, but I don't really have
that capability (wife, kids). However, I trust this newsgroup...it
has not let me down yet!

Thanks in advance for any help in the minefield.
Andy

All, thanks so much for your help. I'm much better equipped to
de-fuse those mines now.
Andy

Salut/Hi Dale,

le/on 23 Mar 2004 18:57:51 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


2001 Bourgogne Rouge, Sylvie Esmonin 19.95
Very pretty with lots of cherries and spice. So easy and delightful we offer it
with this caution: don't slurp it down - it will blossom in the glass. Or, if
you're the impatient type, carafe it for a shot of air.

That's the wine I bought from the grower in January at €7 or €7.50 retail a
bottle. I thought it was an excellent wine at a more than affordable price.
I'd gulp at paying $20 though. If you were able to bring in 24 bottles into
NY, you could almost pay for the trip to Europe on the savings!

Hopefully no one will regard this as a commercial post, as I am unaffliated,
just an occasional customer.

If anyone does, Dale, they elect themselves prime killfile candidates!

In fact I sometimes reckon loony posts are more useful in the long term than
those which quote 40 lines of previous posts, just to add "I quite agree!" -
or those who excise an _entire_ previous post to add "I don't agree". ;-)))
You can glean good killfile candidates, and minimise time wasted in skipping
posts from the loonies.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article , Ian Hoare
writes:

hat's the wine I bought from the grower in January at €7 or €7.50 retail a
bottle. I thought it was an excellent wine at a more than affordable price.
I'd gulp at paying $20 though. If you were able to bring in 24 bottles into
NY, you could almost pay for the trip to Europe on the savings

Hi Ian:

Well, with current Euro/Dollar, maybe not!

In any case, as I stated, BWC is seldom the price leader (and the $19.95 is
before case discounts, etc.). Offhand I know Chambers St Wines carries this for
$17 or so (before discounts). I might mix in a bottle to help fill a case if I
see other stuff I want from CSW, see if it's worth my $15 (I'd probably buy a
case just on your rec if it was same price- $9 or so- here).

I did think that with the mixed case discount of 15%, it might be worth the
BWC premium if someone wanted to explore what good quality Bourgogne Rouge was
like to try a variety from quality makers. If you went to Bob's Bourbon n/
Burgundy Outlet and picked up a variety of $10 Burgs, half would probably be
(imho) undrinkable. So the merely drinkable would in effect cost $20.

Had an interesting discussion with a friend re another NE cheese I should try,
I will experiment before your trip!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Dale Williams" wrote in message
...
Tom & I are going to have different opinions on this, obviously. I
personally
think there are some under-$20 Burgs that blow away anything from
California
(or to a lesser extent Oregon). Tom thinks differently. I think it comes
down
to what you want from your Pinot Noir. The words I think of to describe a
Lafarge Bourgogne are "crisp, transparent, clean fruit, minerally", etc.
Tom
would probably describe the same wine as "thin, acidic." A Russian River
Valley
Pinot to Tom is probably "bursting with fruit", to me it's "fat,
overblown."
Sorry to put words in your mouth, Tom, especially if I'm wrong. I just
wanted
to point out that loving PN (if you have had mostly RRV examples) doesn't
neccesarily translate to loving Burgundy.

Hi, Dale -
That may be a bit of an exaggeration, but you have the essence of it.

What's _wrong_ with wines made from fruit that's adequately ripe? Most
Burgundies I've made the mistake of buying _are_ lacking in fruit and too
acidic. I'm not advocating going too far in the other direction, but a good
_balance_ between the two is more easily found here in California or Oregon
than in France - especially on an equal dollar basis.

My other complaint with Burgundy is that I've tasted technical faults in
many of them that can only be attributed to sloppy winemaking practices.
Microbiologically sound wines are easier to find over here. BTW, I'm _not_
speaking of corked wines; we have our share of those too, unfortunately.

Tom S

In article , "Tom S"
writes:

What's _wrong_ with wines made from fruit that's adequately ripe? Most
Burgundies I've made the mistake of buying _are_ lacking in fruit and too
acidic. I'm not advocating going too far in the other direction, but a good
_balance_ between the two is more easily found here in California or Oregon
than in France - especially on an equal dollar basis.

I never said there was anything intrinsically wrong, your word. This comes down
to taste. Your adequately ripe might be my overripe. I like Haut-Brion, others
like Pavie.

My other complaint with Burgundy is that I've tasted technical faults in
many of them that can only be attributed to sloppy winemaking practices.
Microbiologically sound wines are easier to find over here. BTW, I'm _not_
speaking of corked wines; we have our share of those too, unfortunately.

My guess is that there probably are more tech faults in Burgundy. Too many UC
Davis grads in CA for that to be an issue. But I don't run into tech faults
very often (if at all) when I stick to my pantheon of trusted
producers/negociants: Lafarge, d'Angerville, Roumier, Mugnier, Bachelet,
Chevillon, Drouhin, etc.

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Microbiologically sound wines are easier to find over here.

Even these things come down to a matter of taste. I remember reading a funny
(to me) story about a blind tasting which included 2 or 3 recent Cal-Davis
grads, all of whom pronounced numerous bottles of things like Beaucastel &
Gruaud-Larose "undrinkable" due to brett.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply