Hi all,

I'm fairly new to the area of wines and have a few questions regarding
Bordeaux reds.

I had read somewhere last year that 2000 could be one of the best years
for Bordeaux reds. I hadn't given them much thought since I new they were
fairly expensive and would require some time to age.

One day while walking through Costco (massive general warehouse type store
for those not in the United States), I was surprised to see that they has
a small selection of 2000 Bordeaux available from 20 USD to 40 USD.

I chose one bottle marked as "Carruades de Lafite" S.C. De Chateau Lafite
Rothschild for about 25 USD.

From what I've read about Bordeaux reds they are fairly “harsh, tight,
tough, rigid� due to the tannins when "young". After 5 to 6 years they
start to "soften up a bit". Then they remain mostly unchanged for the
next 3 to 4 years after which they start to "blossom".

I've noticed another store locally has some other highly regarded Pauillac
Bordeaux from 2000 for 25 USD to 45 USD (and one from 1999 but I don’t
know anything about that year’s quality).

So here's the main question: When is the best time to try one of these
2000 wines? I'd hate to open a $25 wine and be disappointed that I hadn't
waited long enough for it to be enjoyable but at the same time I'm dying
to try a good Bordeaux... Any insight on Bordeaux reds in general?

Unfortunately, I don't have a very controlled environment to store the
wine (house temperatures).

Thanks!
Scott

Salut/Hi Scott,

le/on Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:33:07 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to the area of wines and have a few questions regarding
Bordeaux reds.

I had read somewhere last year that 2000 could be one of the best years
for Bordeaux reds.

Not true for ALL of them, but some (maybe 50%) made some excellent wine.


I chose one bottle marked as "Carruades de Lafite" S.C. De Chateau Lafite
Rothschild for about 25 USD.

That's the second wine from one of the most highly reputed chateaux.

From what I've read about Bordeaux reds they are fairly “harsh, tight,
tough, rigid� due to the tannins when "young".

Indeed they are.

After 5 to 6 years they start to "soften up a bit".

For lesser wines in lesser years, although some, from Pomerol for example,
can start to soften up a bit earlier.

Then they remain mostly unchanged for the next 3 to 4 years after which they start to "blossom".

I'd say that wines that start to soften up in 5-6 years will not need as
long as that to show attractively. I'd say a couple of years, after which
they'll stay at or near their peak for 5-6 years before startng to decline.
But I'd emphasize that this would be for _lesser_ wines from lesser years.

Great wines from great years have an entirely different time scale. I would
reckon that you shouldn't touch them at less than 15 years old (so 2015) and
even then they may well be quite tannic.

I've noticed another store locally has some other highly regarded Pauillac
Bordeaux from 2000 for 25 USD to 45 USD (and one from 1999 but I don’t
know anything about that year’s quality).

1999 was - like 2000 - uneven in quality.

Unfortunately, I don't have a very controlled environment to store the
wine (house temperatures).

That's quite a disadvantage, though sudden short term shifts in temperature
are worse for a wine than one that's steady but high. Of course you don't
say whether you're in North Dakota or Arizona, and normal house temperatures
can vary widely between them! I'm guessing you may be in northern
California, and if so, you're likely to have fairly wide annual temperature
variations. If you have a space under the stairs, that might be a place
which is less subject to rapid temperature changes.

Hope this helps a bit.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Scott wrote:

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to the area of wines and have a few questions regarding
Bordeaux reds.

I had read somewhere last year that 2000 could be one of the best years
for Bordeaux reds. I hadn't given them much thought since I new they were
fairly expensive and would require some time to age.

One day while walking through Costco (massive general warehouse type store
for those not in the United States), I was surprised to see that they has
a small selection of 2000 Bordeaux available from 20 USD to 40 USD.

I chose one bottle marked as "Carruades de Lafite" S.C. De Chateau Lafite
Rothschild for about 25 USD.

From what I've read about Bordeaux reds they are fairly “harsh, tight,
tough, rigid� due to the tannins when "young". After 5 to 6 years they
start to "soften up a bit". Then they remain mostly unchanged for the
next 3 to 4 years after which they start to "blossom".

I've noticed another store locally has some other highly regarded Pauillac
Bordeaux from 2000 for 25 USD to 45 USD (and one from 1999 but I don’t
know anything about that year’s quality).

So here's the main question: When is the best time to try one of these
2000 wines? I'd hate to open a $25 wine and be disappointed that I hadn't
waited long enough for it to be enjoyable but at the same time I'm dying
to try a good Bordeaux... Any insight on Bordeaux reds in general?

Unfortunately, I don't have a very controlled environment to store the
wine (house temperatures).

Thanks!
Scott

Subjective, of course, but last night we had two bottles of 2000
Bordeaux and they were glorious. Simply opened and poured.

Chateaux Lanessan and Chateaux Giscours.

I have been a wine buff for maybe 35 years and have found that for the
most part, wines are not as fragile as many will have you think.
The imported wines at least in the past were shipped in containers, kept
on the docks in a variety of climatic conditions, stored in bonded
warehouses..some temperature controlled...some not....and finally
delivered to the various merchants and restaurants where cellar
temperature storing conditions are a myth.
These statements will arouse a bit of controversy as everyone's
experience and taste varies, but is my observation.


Wish you the same experience.

burris

"Scott" wrote in message
news
Hi all,

I'm fairly new to the area of wines and have a few questions regarding
Bordeaux reds.

I had read somewhere last year that 2000 could be one of the best years
for Bordeaux reds. I hadn't given them much thought since I new they were
fairly expensive and would require some time to age.

One day while walking through Costco (massive general warehouse type store
for those not in the United States), I was surprised to see that they has
a small selection of 2000 Bordeaux available from 20 USD to 40 USD.

I chose one bottle marked as "Carruades de Lafite" S.C. De Chateau Lafite
Rothschild for about 25 USD.

I'll bet that's a nice one! Stylistically, it tends to resemble its big
brother (Château Lafite Rothschild) on a smaller scale - and that's not a
bad thing.

So here's the main question: When is the best time to try one of these
2000 wines? I'd hate to open a $25 wine and be disappointed that I hadn't
waited long enough for it to be enjoyable but at the same time I'm dying
to try a good Bordeaux... Any insight on Bordeaux reds in general?

I just opened a bottle of the 2000 Château Coutet ($12 US). It is a very
approachable wine, even in its youth. That's the case with many wines in
that price range.

A wine like the Carruades de Lafite would definitely reward patient
cellaring, but certainly would be drinkable now - especially with extended
airing (breathing).

Tom S

Personally, if you don't have good storage, I'd either:
check out what the '99 that's available is, as a rule it's an earlier drinking
vintage.
with some good wines (and some bad ones)
or
look for some cheaper lesser (Haut-Medoc, Medoc, or right bank satellite
appelations) 2000 Bdx that are more ready to drink (though most could use a few
years, they're pleasant now with some decanting):
Coufran , Canon de Brem, Lanessan (previously mentioned), Ste.Colombe,
Epicurea de Ch. Martinet, are a few that come to mind, or lesser seconds like
Sarget de Gruaud-Larose, Les Fiefs de Lagrange.

Lots of the classed wines (and seconds of the big boys) are really closing down
now, not best way to get a view. At a recent horizontal even with being
decanted an average of 7 hours earlier, some were still tight.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Thank you everyone for the great advice. It sounds like for the
particular bottle I mentioned that I should wait a little while (2015?!)
but that there are other 2000 Bordeaux available that would be quite good
right now.

Ian Hoare wrote:
That's quite a disadvantage, though sudden short term shifts in
temperature
are worse for a wine than one that's steady but high. Of course you don't
say whether you're in North Dakota or Arizona, and normal house
temperatures
can vary widely between them! I'm guessing you may be in northern
California, and if so, you're likely to have fairly wide annual
temperature
variations. If you have a space under the stairs, that might be a place
which is less subject to rapid temperature changes.

I'm in New Mexico, the oldest wine producing area of the United States. We
currently have about 20 something wineries in the state that are small to
medium size.

As far as house temperature goes, in the winter at night or during a work
day we allow our house to go down to about 64F (17.8C) and then heat up to
about 70F (21C) when we're home. We have a forced air natural gas furnace
so it can make this temperature change in about 45 minutes.

In the summer when we're away our house will slowly heat up to around 80
to 82F (27C). When we are home we use an evaporative cooler (adds gallons
of water to the air) to cool the house down but it is very slow and can
usually only get down to about 74F (23C) after as many as 6 hours.

The humidity gets as low as 10 percent in the winter and can get up to
almost 40 percent in the summer (because of our evaporative cooler). In
addition to that we are over a mile above sea level. I wonder if the
reduced atmospheric pressure has any effect on the leakage through the
cork :-)

We don't have any stairs that we could store the wine under but we do have
a crawl space under the house which would probably be perfect in the
summer but much too cold in the winter...

I guess if I plan to store much wine for any length of time I'll have to
invest in a small electric wine storage cabinet or I'll just have to buy
the wine and drink it fairly soon (which is what I usually do now :-)

Cheers,
Scott

"Scott" wrote in message
news
Thank you everyone for the great advice. It sounds like for the
particular bottle I mentioned that I should wait a little while (2015?!)
but that there are other 2000 Bordeaux available that would be quite good
right now.

If I were you, I couldn't/wouldn't resist the urge to try a bottle of the
Carruades right now to see if it's worth laying down. I recommend a nice
steak on the BBQ to accompany it.

I'm in New Mexico, the oldest wine producing area of the United States. We
currently have about 20 something wineries in the state that are small to
medium size.

I have a friend who makes wine in New Mexico. She sent me a couple of
bottles of her NM Cabernet Franc, and it was so good I couldn't believe it!

We don't have any stairs that we could store the wine under but we do have
a crawl space under the house which would probably be perfect in the
summer but much too cold in the winter...

So put the wine there in the Summer and in the bottom of a closet in Winter.

I guess if I plan to store much wine for any length of time I'll have to
invest in a small electric wine storage cabinet or I'll just have to buy
the wine and drink it fairly soon (which is what I usually do now :-)

I really wouldn't worry so much about storage temperature. Red wines aren't
as terribly fragile as you seem to think. The worst thing is long term
_hot_ storage, but you seem to have reasonable options to mitigate that
exposure. Maybe your 2000 Bordeaux will only last for 15 years or so
(instead of 25 or 30), but it'll be good drinking for at least that - _if_
you can keep out of it for that long!

Tom S

"Scott" innews

One day while walking through Costco (massive general warehouse type store
for those not in the United States), I was surprised to see that they has
a small selection of 2000 Bordeaux available from 20 USD to 40 USD.

Scott, I cannot speak necessarily for the Costco near you, and I don't know
anybody connected with the firm, but the Costcos I visit on the west coast
US get these "premium wine" pallets arriving that contain some exceptional
items. My wine enthusiast friends and I spot solid, insightful stuff at
good prices (and in good ship condition), randomly. I am guessing that a
corporate purchase gets split up into these "premium" pallets and
distributed. (Costco is better known for toilet paper by the cubic-meter
box, for any of you who don't know this retailer.)

I'm in New Mexico, the oldest wine producing area of the United States. We
currently have about 20 something wineries in the state that are small to
medium size.

As far as house temperature goes, in the winter at night or during a work day
we allow our house to go down to about 64F (17.8C) and then heat up to
about 70F (21C) when we're home

We have a forced air natural gas furnace
so it can make this temperature change in about 45 minutes.
In the summer when we're away our house will slowly heat up to around 80
to 82F (27C). When we are home we use an evaporative cooler (adds gallons
of water to the air) to cool the house down but it is very slow and can
usually only get down to about 74F (23C) after as many as 6 hours.

The humidity gets as low as 10 percent in the winter and can get up to
almost 40 percent in the summer (because of our evaporative cooler). In
addition to that we are over a mile above sea level.

We don't have any stairs that we could store the wine under but we do have
a crawl space under the house which would probably be perfect in the
summer but much too cold in the winter...

Scott

Have you checked the temperature of the crawl space winter and summer? Is it
sealed from the outside, or open to the outside air. If it is open to outside
air, I suspect the desert sun will heat up that crawl space in the summer to
above 75 deg, and the dry air will cool down to 30 deg in the winter.

When I first moved to Casper, WY, I rented an old house with a shallow basement
accessible through root cellar doors (as are common in the midwest). I didn't
do anything to correct for temps in that basement, although my August temps
reached 74 and my winter humidity was low.

The big problem with swamp coolers in that you can't seal the house off while
you travel, because the house gets too musty (even in the arid west). I finally
installed central air (ie eastern air conditioner) and could leave it running
while I was gone. It sounds like your swamp cooler is underpowered though. They
should cool very quickly. You may need a bigger unit (Sears carries them).

If you can seal off this crawl space and add a small humidifier in the winter,
you could have great storage, without spending tons of money to retrofit your
house.

Tom S. says not to be obsessed with storage conditions, and he's right. But I
suspect with a little work, you can lessen the temperature variations and add a
ltttle humidity. Try to stay below 70 degrees for your storage area. My tasting
notes posted in this group attest that Bordeaux wines will keep for ten to
twenty years with less than ideal storage (similar to yours). So you can
probably buy and hold some of the bigger Bordeaux.

Tom Schellberg

"Max Hauser" wrote in message ...
"Scott" innews

One day while walking through Costco (massive general warehouse type store
for those not in the United States), I was surprised to see that they has
a small selection of 2000 Bordeaux available from 20 USD to 40 USD.

Scott, I cannot speak necessarily for the Costco near you, and I don't know
anybody connected with the firm, but the Costcos I visit on the west coast
US get these "premium wine" pallets arriving that contain some exceptional
items. My wine enthusiast friends and I spot solid, insightful stuff at
good prices (and in good ship condition), randomly. I am guessing that a
corporate purchase gets split up into these "premium" pallets and
distributed. (Costco is better known for toilet paper by the cubic-meter
box, for any of you who don't know this retailer.)

I whole-heartedly agree! I am hardly a wine expert, but I have bought
a lot of wonderful wines at Costco (midwest). This morning, I went to
Costco to pick up various items (let's just say we won't be needing to
purchase kleenex for a while), and I picked up something new (for me):
2001 Cotes du Rhone--Ste Fermieredes Vignobles Pierre Perrin,
Coudoulet de Beaucastel. Anyone know anything about this wine?

-Cherie

On 6 Mar 2004 11:39:09 -0800, (cherie) said:

] "Max Hauser" wrote in message ...
] "Scott" innews ]
] One day while walking through Costco (massive general warehouse type store
] for those not in the United States), I was surprised to see that they has
] a small selection of 2000 Bordeaux available from 20 USD to 40 USD.
]
] Scott, I cannot speak necessarily for the Costco near you, and I don't know
] anybody connected with the firm, but the Costcos I visit on the west coast
] US get these "premium wine" pallets arriving that contain some exceptional
] items. My wine enthusiast friends and I spot solid, insightful stuff at
] good prices (and in good ship condition), randomly. I am guessing that a
] corporate purchase gets split up into these "premium" pallets and
] distributed. (Costco is better known for toilet paper by the cubic-meter
] box, for any of you who don't know this retailer.)
]
] I whole-heartedly agree! I am hardly a wine expert, but I have bought
] a lot of wonderful wines at Costco (midwest). This morning, I went to
] Costco to pick up various items (let's just say we won't be needing to
] purchase kleenex for a while), and I picked up something new (for me):
] 2001 Cotes du Rhone--Ste Fermieredes Vignobles Pierre Perrin,
] Coudoulet de Beaucastel. Anyone know anything about this wine?
]
] -Cherie

Hiya Cherie,

This is the well known "cru du Coudoulet", the cotes du rhone of what is
perhaps the most famous chateauneuf du pape (and also perhaps the
most atypical) Chateau Beaucastel. It is a well made cotes du rhone
that usually demands a bit of aging, although it can be enjoyable at
almost any time of it's life.

It will probably lack a bit of the immediate warmth of the '00 Louis Bernard
you mentioned in another thread -- not a terrific wine in my book, but if
it can help introduce you to the pleasures of chateauneuf, all the better --
but if you let it open for a while, I think you'll find it very chewy and somewhat
more complex.

I am not a collector of coudoulet, although I do specialize in the rhone and CdP
in particular, but I think I've got some 89 hanging around somewhere. Should be
about settled down now! As for Beaucastel, a quick google search of this newsgroup
will give you lots of notes. Off the top of my head, I believe I still hold '83 and '88 - '90,
but since that time I began to be a bit put off by the oak in their style, (not to mention
the now myriad imitators.)

As you say, Costco is a great place to find stuff, with the caveat that in the smaller
markets you may have less luck. Seen some great deals, though.

To the OP, you've had the good advice, I'll only add that you should probably taste
the wine, give it lots of air, (maybe as Tom said with a grilled steak), _and_ stick one
under your stairs. Then you can see "what a difference a day makes." As others
have said, don't be too paranoid about conditions. It's mostly rapid temp swings
that you have to worry about. Most young wine (maybe Pauilliac in particular)
is pretty tough, older bottles do become more sensitive.

cheers,

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:33:07 -0700, Scott said:

[]
] I chose one bottle marked as "Carruades de Lafite" S.C. De Chateau Lafite
] Rothschild for about 25 USD.
[]

Helluva deal, just happened to be gathering wool on the Berry Bros site, (not
the cheapest, OK) they are selling this for 40 quid, about US$60!

Here's the sales pitch:

"A brilliant second wine, the 2000 Caruuades de Lafite (51.4% Cabernet
Sauvignon, 42.3% Merlot, 4.9% Cabernet Franc and 1.4% Petit Verdot)
aged in 10-15% new oak, shows wonderfully sweet lead pencil shavings
intermixed with an elegant black cherry and cassis nose. A wine of
tremendous pirity, medium body and the tell-tale Lafite elegance, this is
a gorgoeus wine to drink now and over the next 12-15 years." 90/100 pts
(Robert Parker - Wine Advocate - Apr-2003)

YMMV!

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

In article , Emery Davis
writes:

2001 Cotes du Rhone--Ste Fermieredes Vignobles Pierre Perrin,
] Coudoulet de Beaucastel. Anyone know anything about this wine?
]
] -Cherie

Hiya Cherie,

This is the well known "cru du Coudoulet", the cotes du rhone of what is
perhaps the most famous chateauneuf du pape (and also perhaps the
most atypical) Chateau Beaucastel. It is a well made cotes du rhone
that usually demands a bit of aging, although it can be enjoyable at
almost any time of it's life.

It will probably lack a bit of the immediate warmth of the '00 Louis Bernard
you mentioned in another thread -- not a terrific wine in my book, but if
it can help introduce you to the pleasures of chateauneuf, all the better --
but if you let it open for a while, I think you'll find it very chewy and
somewhat
more complex.

I am not a collector of coudoulet, although I do specialize in the rhone and
CdP
in particular, but I think I've got some 89 hanging around somewhere. Should
be
about settled down now! As for Beaucastel, a quick google search of this
newsgroup
will give you lots of notes. Off the top of my head, I believe I still hold
'83 and '88 - '90,
but since that time I began to be a bit put off by the oak in their style,
(not to mention
the now myriad imitators.)

I agree with almost everything Emery says (except I'm surpised by him finding
Beaucastel oaky, never has seemed to me, I though they used older foudres).
Actually unlike many Côtes du Rhone, the Coudoulet is a specific property, just
outside the legal border of CdPape. Like Beaucastel, there's a comparatively
high % of Mouvedre in the blend. But I still think that Coudoulet (though
technically a CdR) tastes more like a CdP than Beaucastel does. I really like
the style of both, but find aging helps.

I had a sample of the '01 Coudoulet, and probably ordered several. Will try one
soon (just go delivery) , tuck rest away for 10 years. I find that less-forward
CdPs (which Coudoulet resembles more than it does most CdR) tend to drink well
for first year or two after release (so 3-5 years fromvintage), then shut down
for 5 years or so.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Emery Davis wrote in message ...
On 6 Mar 2004 11:39:09 -0800, (cherie) said:


To the OP, you've had the good advice, I'll only add that you should probably taste
the wine, give it lots of air, (maybe as Tom said with a grilled steak), _and_ stick one
under your stairs. Then you can see "what a difference a day makes."

cheers,

-E


Thanks so much for the feedback. I think that is exactly what I will do.
-Cherie

On 07 Mar 2004 03:41:37 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:

[]
] I agree with almost everything Emery says (except I'm surpised by him finding
] Beaucastel oaky, never has seemed to me, I though they used older foudres).

Hi Dale,

Foudres, certainly. I'm not sure about the age of them though, I always assumed
they were changed out in rotation after 2-3 years. Not sure if I learned this there, or
just imagined it.

Haven't had a B. recently, and not likely to for a little while as I continue bottom
feeding (not always a bad thing as you know), but when I next do I'll check
my palate for the tell tale oak component! Have to get a young one, though,
drat.

Coudoulet used to be a really great deal in the US, though I imagine those days
are gone...

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies