A quote from a previous post:

"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

MAUOMBO"


NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.
To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
stelvin and decent cork; the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines
are fresher. Perhaps, but I prefer the aged character of 10 yo rieslings,
let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy. My contention is that many New World
winemakers do not taste enough aged wines. In Australia, where I come from,
98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?

Ron Lel

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

A quote from a previous post:

"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I
just received the following letter from him.

(Translated on the fly by me)
==========================
Sir, Madam,

We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank
you for the confidence you show in us.

During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch
Belingard 2000.

Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a
significant percentage of our bottles were corked.

We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles
with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened
we would be grateful if you could inform us.

Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with
another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.

Yours etc.

===============

To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
stelvin and decent cork;

You should read more widely ;-))).

the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher.

In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took
part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by
Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we
could tell, because we were tasting blind.

let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.

Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?


98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
choice is clear, IMO.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article , Ian Hoare
writes:

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer.

Ian,
VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more careful
than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
choice is clear, IMO.

Again, total agreement. While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal
evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of oxygen,
or whatnot), I see no reason I should have to deal (as I have within last
month) with corked bottles of Menetou-Salon, Qba Riesling, or inexpensive
Chianti. And I'm probably on the insensitive end of the TCA-spectrum!
It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork producers)
that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3 years of
bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick recently!),
maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from) and
even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.

Cheers,

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
Crueset leverPulls? :-)


"Dale Williams" wrote in message
...
In article , Ian Hoare
writes:

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer.

Ian,
VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more
careful
than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines,
the
choice is clear, IMO.

Again, total agreement. While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal
evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of
oxygen,
or whatnot), I see no reason I should have to deal (as I have within last
month) with corked bottles of Menetou-Salon, Qba Riesling, or inexpensive
Chianti. And I'm probably on the insensitive end of the TCA-spectrum!
It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork
producers)
that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3
years of
bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick
recently!),
maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from)
and
even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.

Cheers,

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article .net, "dick"
writes:

But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
Crueset leverPulls? :-)

Well, you could mount them on a wall for display, or keep them for your
pre-2004 wines.

BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several
recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out
with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention
that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
Crueset leverPulls? :-)


I understand Laguiole is coming out with a set of Stelvin pliers to fill just
that need ;-)

Dale Williams wrote:

BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several
recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out
with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention
that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.

Nope, you're not the only person, Dale. Also, do not EVER try aging a wine
bottled under a synthetic cork: they apparently scavenge all the free SO2 and
the wine dies far more rapidly than it would under any other closure. I found
this out the hard way a year or two ago with a '96 Siduri Pinot Noir.

Mark Lipton

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message ...

Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures
for red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?



And Ron, since you come from Australia, go ask Penfolds the results of cork
vs stelvin trials they have been conducting for over ten years on their
premium reds.

You may well see even Grange bottled under Stelvin at some time in the
future.

--

st.helier

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 09 Feb 2004 14:08:41 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

In article , Ian Hoare
writes:

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer.

Ian,
VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more careful
than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.

By the way, I was deeply impressed with his punctilious care for his
clients. I know that important and reputable estates in Bordeaux (and
California, iirc) do _agree_ to replace corked bottles, it's relatively rare
for someone from a minor area to OFFER to do so. What was heartrending
afaiac is that this Cuvée Prestige was glorious, and as it was his top wine,
he would have used the _best_ corks available to him. Comte de Bosredon is
one of the top 4 or 5 Bergerac producers, and one who could expect
(ex-president of Bergerac wine makers) to get absolutely top quality corks.

While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of
oxygen, or whatnot),

Hmm, I'd say that most of the discussion has to be more on a hypothetical
level, as there's little true anecdotal evidence for comparison. What I do
know without doubt, is that wine that is kept under "normal" cellaring
conditions, with "normal" slow half yearly variations in temperature, does
usually develop a space between wine and cork after many years. This must
have at one time contained oxygen, and therefore any theory of aging must
take this fact into consideration. It is equally indubitable that wine kept
at very low steady temperatures age far MORE slowly than wines kept
"normally". Again, any theory of aging has to take this into account.

I don't think there's much empirical evidence comparing the quality of aged
wine, when stored under differing conditions, and with different levels of
ullage, though there IS a bit, which suggests that the slower the wine
develops, the better it will eventually end up. This seems to me to hint
that while oxygen may speed up the aging process, it may do so to the
detriment of quality.

All the above to say that afaiac I don't think there's enough evidence
either way to pronounce either against or for Stelvin _as a long term (20
years) closure_. I'd neither refuse to buy such wines under Stelvin, nor
insist upon it.

It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork producers)
that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3 years of
bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick recently!),
maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from) and
even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.

Yes, this is an excellent argument, and one with which I agree entirely. If
the use of cork closures were restricted to wines demanding very long term
aging, and to sales in France (whose wine consumers are amongst the most
hidebound in Europe), then the reduction in demand would almost certainly
reduce the incidence of corked wines to the levels it always used to be
before the 70s.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Let me add to the fray. A
HREF="http://www.feltonroad.com/stelvin.htm"This article/A at
Felton Road discusses their use of caps, and mentions a few other
producers also using or experimenting with them. Interesting reading
on the matter. NZ (my native country, although I now live in the US)
has been forging ahead with caps for a while, but there is obviously a
very entrenched reaction against them.

My humble opinion is simply that I'm paying for the wine first and
foremost, and anything that can protect it better is a plus in my
book. I say this because I have read opinions that state (in so many
words) "stuff whether it's better for the wine or not; a cork is just
more aesthetically pleasing!".

Ian Hoare wrote in message . ..
Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

A quote from a previous post:

"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I
just received the following letter from him.

(Translated on the fly by me)
==========================
Sir, Madam,

We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank
you for the confidence you show in us.

During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch
Belingard 2000.

Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a
significant percentage of our bottles were corked.

We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles
with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened
we would be grateful if you could inform us.

Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with
another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.

Yours etc.

===============

To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
stelvin and decent cork;

You should read more widely ;-))).

the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher.

In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took
part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by
Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we
could tell, because we were tasting blind.

let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.

Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?


98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
choice is clear, IMO.

Ian Hoare wrote in message . ..
Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

A quote from a previous post:

"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I
just received the following letter from him.

(Translated on the fly by me)
==========================
Sir, Madam,

We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank
you for the confidence you show in us.

During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch
Belingard 2000.

Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a
significant percentage of our bottles were corked.

We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles
with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened
we would be grateful if you could inform us.

Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with
another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.

Yours etc.

===============

To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
stelvin and decent cork;

You should read more widely ;-))).

the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher.

In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took
part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by
Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we
could tell, because we were tasting blind.

let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.

Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?


98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
choice is clear, IMO.

At a recent wine-tasting, an importer of mainly New Zealand wines (and
from NZ IIRC) said something interesting. He said especially in Aus/NZ
they are moving toward stelvin or screw-caps for white wines as a way
to preserve and guarantee the freshness and fruit of the wine to the
consumer.
What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
white wines using non-cork closures. This would result in fewer corks
necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks
would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A
high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with corked wines is the
use of the lower-grade corks)
It's probably the way to go..

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message ...

BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several
recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out
with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention
that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.
Dale


I've found it depends on the synthetic. Unfortunately, Supremecorq
(many colors, looks like it's molded from "curds" of some sort, almost
incompressible) is the market leader and between it and its clones is
the most common one. This one is truly hell on corkscrews in general
- and on Ah-so's, for that matter. OTOH, Nomocorq and Neocork, two
outwardly similar synthetics (relatively spongy center, slippery
extruded outer sleeve, usually more or less natural color) are fine
with normal openers.

- Mark W.

"Peter Muto" wrote in message
om...
What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
white wines using non-cork closures. This would result in fewer corks
necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks
would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A
high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with corked wines is the
use of the lower-grade corks)
Would you please tell me and the makers of prestigious, but corked, wines
which corks to avoid? I'm fairly sure that information would be immensely
valuable to all in the wine industry.
Sincerely yours,
Anders

Dale Williams wrote:

Yes, you'd think that makers of Lafleur, Leoville Barton, etc.(which I've run
across corked bottles of) would be willing to get the good corks. I've heard
severally reports of corked Grange, DRC, too.
As stated earlier, some cork producers are better than others. But it's more a
case of (pulling numbers from memory, couldn't cite source) 3-4% risk vs. 10%,
not elimination of risk.


I have read that one in seven corks are bad on a world wide basis. That
number most likely includes some
very old corks and some very new corks. One vintner whose wines I buy
regularly seems to have found
the supplier of the bad corks. I have experienced a bad cork rate from
that vintner of about one in four
and that would all be very young wine.

I confronted the wine maker at St Francis about four years back about
their plastic corks and the trouble
that I was having getting them off a ScrewPull or LeverPull and he told
me that they were on their fourth
iteration of plastic and were not going to give up because their cork
supply was so bad. The planet is
full of wines without Stelvin so why bother.

--

Bill wrote:

I have read that one in seven corks are bad on a world wide basis. That
number most likely includes some
very old corks and some very new corks. One vintner whose wines I buy
regularly seems to have found
the supplier of the bad corks. I have experienced a bad cork rate from
that vintner of about one in four
and that would all be very young wine.

Heya, Bill! Been a while since I've last seen you here -- I hope that all is
going well for you. I've heard numbers between 5 and 15% bandied about, but I'll
bet that it depends a lot on who's doing the counting, given the incredible
diversity of TCA senstivity in the populace.

Mark Lipton