A quote from a previous post:

"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

MAUOMBO"


NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.
To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
stelvin and decent cork; the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines
are fresher. Perhaps, but I prefer the aged character of 10 yo rieslings,
let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy. My contention is that many New World
winemakers do not taste enough aged wines. In Australia, where I come from,
98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?

Ron Lel

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>A quote from a previous post:
>
>"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

>NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
>ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
>was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
>producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I
just received the following letter from him.

(Translated on the fly by me)
==========================
Sir, Madam,

We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank
you for the confidence you show in us.

During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch
Belingard 2000.

Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a
significant percentage of our bottles were corked.

We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles
with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened
we would be grateful if you could inform us.

Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with
another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.

Yours etc.

===============

>To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
>stelvin and decent cork;

You should read more widely ;-))).

> the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher.

In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took
part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by
Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we
could tell, because we were tasting blind.

>let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.

Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?


>98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
>that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
>stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
choice is clear, IMO.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

In article >, Ian Hoare
> writes:

>So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer.

Ian,
VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more careful
than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.

>At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
>Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
>choice is clear, IMO.

Again, total agreement. While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal
evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of oxygen,
or whatnot), I see no reason I should have to deal (as I have within last
month) with corked bottles of Menetou-Salon, Qba Riesling, or inexpensive
Chianti. And I'm probably on the insensitive end of the TCA-spectrum!
It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork producers)
that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3 years of
bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick recently!),
maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from) and
even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.

Cheers,

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
Crueset leverPulls? :-)


"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Ian Hoare
> > writes:
>
> >So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer.
>
> Ian,
> VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more
careful
> than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.
>
> >At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
> >Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines,
the
> >choice is clear, IMO.
>
> Again, total agreement. While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal
> evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of
oxygen,
> or whatnot), I see no reason I should have to deal (as I have within last
> month) with corked bottles of Menetou-Salon, Qba Riesling, or inexpensive
> Chianti. And I'm probably on the insensitive end of the TCA-spectrum!
> It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork
producers)
> that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3
years of
> bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick
recently!),
> maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from)
and
> even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dale
>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article .net>, "dick"
> writes:

>But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
>Crueset leverPulls? :-)

Well, you could mount them on a wall for display, or keep them for your
pre-2004 wines.

BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several
recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out
with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention
that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

>But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
>Crueset leverPulls? :-)
>

I understand Laguiole is coming out with a set of Stelvin pliers to fill just
that need ;-)

Dale Williams wrote:

> BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several
> recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out
> with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention
> that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.

Nope, you're not the only person, Dale. Also, do not EVER try aging a wine
bottled under a synthetic cork: they apparently scavenge all the free SO2 and
the wine dies far more rapidly than it would under any other closure. I found
this out the hard way a year or two ago with a '96 Siduri Pinot Noir.

Mark Lipton

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message ...
>
> Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures
> for red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?
>
>

And Ron, since you come from Australia, go ask Penfolds the results of cork
vs stelvin trials they have been conducting for over ten years on their
premium reds.

You may well see even Grange bottled under Stelvin at some time in the
future.

--

st.helier

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 09 Feb 2004 14:08:41 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>In article >, Ian Hoare
> writes:
>
>>So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer.
>
>Ian,
>VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more careful
>than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.

By the way, I was deeply impressed with his punctilious care for his
clients. I know that important and reputable estates in Bordeaux (and
California, iirc) do _agree_ to replace corked bottles, it's relatively rare
for someone from a minor area to OFFER to do so. What was heartrending
afaiac is that this Cuvée Prestige was glorious, and as it was his top wine,
he would have used the _best_ corks available to him. Comte de Bosredon is
one of the top 4 or 5 Bergerac producers, and one who could expect
(ex-president of Bergerac wine makers) to get absolutely top quality corks.

> While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of
> oxygen, or whatnot),

Hmm, I'd say that most of the discussion has to be more on a hypothetical
level, as there's little true anecdotal evidence for comparison. What I do
know without doubt, is that wine that is kept under "normal" cellaring
conditions, with "normal" slow half yearly variations in temperature, does
usually develop a space between wine and cork after many years. This must
have at one time contained oxygen, and therefore any theory of aging must
take this fact into consideration. It is equally indubitable that wine kept
at very low steady temperatures age far MORE slowly than wines kept
"normally". Again, any theory of aging has to take this into account.

I don't think there's much empirical evidence comparing the quality of aged
wine, when stored under differing conditions, and with different levels of
ullage, though there IS a bit, which suggests that the slower the wine
develops, the better it will eventually end up. This seems to me to hint
that while oxygen may speed up the aging process, it may do so to the
detriment of quality.

All the above to say that afaiac I don't think there's enough evidence
either way to pronounce either against or for Stelvin _as a long term (>20
years) closure_. I'd neither refuse to buy such wines under Stelvin, nor
insist upon it.

>It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork producers)
>that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3 years of
>bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick recently!),
>maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from) and
>even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.

Yes, this is an excellent argument, and one with which I agree entirely. If
the use of cork closures were restricted to wines demanding very long term
aging, and to sales in France (whose wine consumers are amongst the most
hidebound in Europe), then the reduction in demand would almost certainly
reduce the incidence of corked wines to the levels it always used to be
before the 70s.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Let me add to the fray. <A
HREF="http://www.feltonroad.com/stelvin.htm">This article</A> at
Felton Road discusses their use of caps, and mentions a few other
producers also using or experimenting with them. Interesting reading
on the matter. NZ (my native country, although I now live in the US)
has been forging ahead with caps for a while, but there is obviously a
very entrenched reaction against them.

My humble opinion is simply that I'm paying for the wine first and
foremost, and anything that can protect it better is a plus in my
book. I say this because I have read opinions that state (in so many
words) "stuff whether it's better for the wine or not; a cork is just
more aesthetically pleasing!".

Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..
> Salut/Hi Ron Lel,
>
> le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >A quote from a previous post:
> >
> >"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!
>
> >NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
> >ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
> >was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
> >producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.
>
> So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I
> just received the following letter from him.
>
> (Translated on the fly by me)
> ==========================
> Sir, Madam,
>
> We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank
> you for the confidence you show in us.
>
> During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch
> Belingard 2000.
>
> Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a
> significant percentage of our bottles were corked.
>
> We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles
> with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened
> we would be grateful if you could inform us.
>
> Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with
> another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.
>
> Yours etc.
>
> ===============
>
> >To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
> >stelvin and decent cork;
>
> You should read more widely ;-))).
>
> > the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher.
>
> In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took
> part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by
> Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we
> could tell, because we were tasting blind.
>
> >let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.
>
> Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
> red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?
>
>
> >98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
> >that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
> >stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?
>
> At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
> Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
> choice is clear, IMO.

Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..
> Salut/Hi Ron Lel,
>
> le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
> >A quote from a previous post:
> >
> >"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!
>
> >NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
> >ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
> >was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork
> >producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork.
>
> So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I
> just received the following letter from him.
>
> (Translated on the fly by me)
> ==========================
> Sir, Madam,
>
> We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank
> you for the confidence you show in us.
>
> During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch
> Belingard 2000.
>
> Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a
> significant percentage of our bottles were corked.
>
> We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles
> with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened
> we would be grateful if you could inform us.
>
> Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with
> another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.
>
> Yours etc.
>
> ===============
>
> >To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under
> >stelvin and decent cork;
>
> You should read more widely ;-))).
>
> > the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher.
>
> In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took
> part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by
> Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we
> could tell, because we were tasting blind.
>
> >let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.
>
> Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
> red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?
>
>
> >98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
> >that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
> >stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?
>
> At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
> Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
> choice is clear, IMO.

At a recent wine-tasting, an importer of mainly New Zealand wines (and
from NZ IIRC) said something interesting. He said especially in Aus/NZ
they are moving toward stelvin or screw-caps for white wines as a way
to preserve and guarantee the freshness and fruit of the wine to the
consumer.
What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
white wines using non-cork closures. This would result in fewer corks
necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks
would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A
high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with corked wines is the
use of the lower-grade corks)
It's probably the way to go..

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message >...
>
> BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several
> recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out
> with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention
> that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.
> Dale
>

I've found it depends on the synthetic. Unfortunately, Supremecorq
(many colors, looks like it's molded from "curds" of some sort, almost
incompressible) is the market leader and between it and its clones is
the most common one. This one is truly hell on corkscrews in general
- and on Ah-so's, for that matter. OTOH, Nomocorq and Neocork, two
outwardly similar synthetics (relatively spongy center, slippery
extruded outer sleeve, usually more or less natural color) are fine
with normal openers.

- Mark W.

"Peter Muto" > wrote in message
om...
> What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
> white wines using non-cork closures. This would result in fewer corks
> necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks
> would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A
> high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with corked wines is the
> use of the lower-grade corks)
Would you please tell me and the makers of prestigious, but corked, wines
which corks to avoid? I'm fairly sure that information would be immensely
valuable to all in the wine industry.
Sincerely yours,
Anders

Dale Williams wrote:

>Yes, you'd think that makers of Lafleur, Leoville Barton, etc.(which I've run
>across corked bottles of) would be willing to get the good corks. I've heard
>severally reports of corked Grange, DRC, too.
>As stated earlier, some cork producers are better than others. But it's more a
>case of (pulling numbers from memory, couldn't cite source) 3-4% risk vs. 10%,
>not elimination of risk.
>
>
I have read that one in seven corks are bad on a world wide basis. That
number most likely includes some
very old corks and some very new corks. One vintner whose wines I buy
regularly seems to have found
the supplier of the bad corks. I have experienced a bad cork rate from
that vintner of about one in four
and that would all be very young wine.

I confronted the wine maker at St Francis about four years back about
their plastic corks and the trouble
that I was having getting them off a ScrewPull or LeverPull and he told
me that they were on their fourth
iteration of plastic and were not going to give up because their cork
supply was so bad. The planet is
full of wines without Stelvin so why bother.

--

Bill wrote:

> I have read that one in seven corks are bad on a world wide basis. That
> number most likely includes some
> very old corks and some very new corks. One vintner whose wines I buy
> regularly seems to have found
> the supplier of the bad corks. I have experienced a bad cork rate from
> that vintner of about one in four
> and that would all be very young wine.

Heya, Bill! Been a while since I've last seen you here -- I hope that all is
going well for you. I've heard numbers between 5 and 15% bandied about, but I'll
bet that it depends a lot on who's doing the counting, given the incredible
diversity of TCA senstivity in the populace.

Mark Lipton

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> In article .net>, "dick"
> > writes:
>
> >But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le
> >Crueset leverPulls? :-)
>
> Well, you could mount them on a wall for display, or keep them for your
> pre-2004 wines.
>
> BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened
several
> recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get
out
> with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to
mention
> that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.
> Dale

Those are the injection molded closures. However, I'm experimenting with
extruded or co-extruded low density polyethylene closures (Neocork and Tage,
and several other manufacturers) which are much easier to extract and to get
off the corkscrew. The jury is still out as to whether they do a great
corking job over the long term, but over the short term they seem to do just
fine in terms of keeping wine in and air out. I've had trouble with the
mechanics of bottling with them, because they're extremely sensitive to +/-
headspace pressure, but this year I'll be trying some new versions which
might do a better job in that regard.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

>
> Dale Williams
> Drop "damnspam" to reply

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

When I first read your post, I interposed a couple of letters into the
country you talked about!

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks
>ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion
>was that Stelvin is not for them.

Then you have been talking to different "top Austrian producers" than
Michael Pronay. I await his trenchant remarks with interest. He's an eminent
Austrian wine journalist who writes here frequently. I will be fascinated to
read his comments.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Peter Muto,

Can I ask a favour please.

When replying to a post could you try hard to trim the original message so
that just enough remains for a reader to know what it is you're replying to.
Otherwise we can easily end up in a silly situation with 125 lines of quote
and 1 line of comment!

le/on 9 Feb 2004 10:03:21 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>> >let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy.
>>
>> Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for
>> red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?
>>
>>
>> >98% of wine bought is consumed within 48 hours. Sure stelvin is fine for
>> >that, but for those of us who like to cellar wine - well, I refuse to buy
>> >stelvin sealed wines. What do others think?
>>
>> At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin.
>> Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the
>> choice is clear, IMO.
>
>At a recent wine-tasting, an importer of mainly New Zealand wines (and
>from NZ IIRC) said something interesting. He said especially in Aus/NZ
>they are moving toward stelvin or screw-caps for white wines as a way
>to preserve and guarantee the freshness and fruit of the wine to the
>consumer.

Yup, there's little doubt that's true, and it's not only in the Antipodes, I
know of quite a number of French producers doing it for export.

>What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
>white wines using non-cork closures.

I can live with that, though I have some hesitation over top white
Burgundies and for top sweet wines.

> This would result in fewer corks necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks
>would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with
> corked wines is the use of the lower-grade corks)

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that, would that it were. I _think_ that
what will happen is that as demand for cork closures goes down, so the AGE
of the oaks from which cork is stripped, will go back up again, and that it
is this which may reduce the proportion of TCA tainted bottles. However, I
do agree that one way or another, cork manufacturers will HAVE to get their
house in order, or lose out completely. If it means that the price of corks
increases dramatically, but with a guaranteed absence of TCA, then the
selection process will take place almost automatically.

>It's probably the way to go..

Just to lob one awkward little factlet. It's not generally known that for
MANY years (like >25), vintage champagne has been aged under crown caps? So
aging definitely DOES take place under a hermetic seal.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Dale Williams" > wrote in message
...
> BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened
several
> recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get
out
> with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to
mention
> that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.

Hi, Dale -

I'm well aware of the problem you are referring to. My lever Screwpull has
a _terrible_ time with some of the synthetic corks, as well as natural cork
that is capped with wax. Fortunately, not all synthetics are the same in
that respect.

FWIW, the Chardonnay I recently bottled (2002 Chateau Burbank*, Santa
Barbara County) is under Supremecorq's synthetic "cork alternative". My
Screwpull has no difficulty with them at all, and they are spongy/pliable
enough that they will go back into the bottle quite easily. This is the
closest thing to the look and feel of natural cork I've seen to date.
*A bit of shameless self promotion. ;^)

I am also hopeful that the SO2 "scalping" issue has been sufficiently
addressed with this corq. That has been a problem with some of the synthos.
I'll know better in a year or two.

BTW, here's an interesting item:
http://www.decanter.com/news/47829.html

Tom S

"Mark Willstatter" > wrote in message
om...
> amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message
>...
> >
> > BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened
several
> > recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get
out
> > with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to
mention
> > that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish.
> > Dale
> >
>
> I've found it depends on the synthetic. Unfortunately, Supremecorq
> (many colors, looks like it's molded from "curds" of some sort, almost
> incompressible) is the market leader and between it and its clones is
> the most common one. This one is truly hell on corkscrews in general
> - and on Ah-so's, for that matter.

I just bought 6000 of the new generation Supremecorq. They seem to have
addressed these problems very well. I'm also hopeful about the SO2
dimunition problem. I know they're aware of these issues and are working
toward solutions. BTW, I have no commercial interest in the company - only
in better bottle closures.

Tom S

Mark Lipton > wrote in message >...
> Bill wrote:
>
> > I have read that one in seven corks are bad on a world wide basis. That
> > number most likely includes some
> > very old corks and some very new corks. One vintner whose wines I buy
> > regularly seems to have found
> > the supplier of the bad corks. I have experienced a bad cork rate from
> > that vintner of about one in four
> > and that would all be very young wine.
>
> Heya, Bill! Been a while since I've last seen you here -- I hope that all is
> going well for you. I've heard numbers between 5 and 15% bandied about, but I'll
> bet that it depends a lot on who's doing the counting, given the incredible
> diversity of TCA senstivity in the populace.
>
> Mark Lipton

The 5% to 15% numbers I've seen usually refer to "corked" wines or
wines tainted with TCA. There are other sources of TCA besides the
cork itself.

Going to Stelvin or synthetic cork is not going to eliminate TCA taint
completely. Hopefully better winery practices will help also.


Andy

Salut/Hi JEP,

le/on 10 Feb 2004 05:23:59 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

> Mark Lipton said

>> Heya, Bill! Been a while since I've last seen you here -- I hope that all is
>> going well for you. I've heard numbers between 5 and 15% bandied about, but I'll
>> bet that it depends a lot on who's doing the counting, given the incredible
>> diversity of TCA senstivity in the populace.

>The 5% to 15% numbers I've seen usually refer to "corked" wines or
>wines tainted with TCA. There are other sources of TCA besides the
>cork itself.

Agreed. Any idea of the figures? I've heard it's under 1 in 5000 bottles.

>Going to Stelvin or synthetic cork is not going to eliminate TCA taint
>completely.

Agreed, but it would reduce it to levels that are perfectly acceptable IMO.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote in message >...
> "Peter Muto" > wrote in message
> om...
> > What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
> > white wines using non-cork closures. This would result in fewer corks
> > necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks
> > would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A
> > high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with corked wines is the
> > use of the lower-grade corks)
> Would you please tell me and the makers of prestigious, but corked, wines
> which corks to avoid? I'm fairly sure that information would be immensely
> valuable to all in the wine industry.
> Sincerely yours,
> Anders

I don't know about specific producer's....I remember reading about a
Barolo producer who had to recall his wines (and sued the cork
supplier)
Poking around for a bit I found this he
"The corkwood is inspected and graded every step of the way. This is
done to ensure that only the best quality corkwood becomes a Cork
Supply USA cork. Rejected cork material will be used for gaskets, cork
flooring - even insulation on NASA's space shuttle."
http://www.stonehauswinery.com/cork.htm
Here's another interesting article about a machine to help automate
the process...since the inspection and grading is (was?) done by
individuals.
http://www.cvc.uab.es/corkinspect/success.htm
There is more info at
http://www.corkfacts.com/
http://www.corkqc.com/

Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..
> Salut/Hi Peter Muto,
>
> Can I ask a favour please.
>
> When replying to a post could you try hard to trim the original message so
> that just enough remains for a reader to know what it is you're replying to.
> Otherwise we can easily end up in a silly situation with 125 lines of quote
> and 1 line of comment!

Sure
Hi is fine (Ontario)

>
>
> >What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all
> >white wines using non-cork closures.
>
> I can live with that, though I have some hesitation over top white
> Burgundies and for top sweet wines.

Sorry, yes when I meant all, I could have clarified except white wines
with proven ageability such as those mentioned (mainly White Burg, and
dessert wines)

>
> Unfortunately it's not as simple as that, would that it were. I _think_ that
> what will happen is that as demand for cork closures goes down, so the AGE
> of the oaks from which cork is stripped, will go back up again, and that it
> is this which may reduce the proportion of TCA tainted bottles. However, I
> do agree that one way or another, cork manufacturers will HAVE to get their
> house in order, or lose out completely. If it means that the price of corks
> increases dramatically, but with a guaranteed absence of TCA, then the
> selection process will take place almost automatically.

Exactly and that's just one way in which the quality of the corks will
increase. Basically what would probably happen is mostly 'fine wine'
would remain using corks. These producers would pressure and be
willing to pay for only the highest quality corks. Therefore since
there will only be a demand for the highest quality corks, those are
the only corks that will be produced. One of the ways they would do
that, is by harvesting the trees less often and older.

>
> Just to lob one awkward little factlet. It's not generally known that for
> MANY years (like >25), vintage champagne has been aged under crown caps? So
> aging definitely DOES take place under a hermetic seal.

I'm not sure if you're implying a wine normally has (needs?) contact
with some air or not...
My understanding is that the whole notion of 'corks allow a wine to
breathe' is the most persitent false myth in wine. If ANY air was
allowed into contact with the wine it would spoil (just like every
other food product would eventually spoil if exposed to any air). I
suppose if exposed to tiny amounts, the process simply could just take
a long time.

Salut/Hi Peter Muto,

le/on 10 Feb 2004 06:48:43 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..
>> Salut/Hi Peter Muto,
>>
>> Can I ask a favour please.
>>
>> When replying to a post could you try hard to trim the original message

>Sure
Thanks. I know it's a bit rude of me, but I remind people of this from time
to time, which TENDS to remind me too! ;-))

>> house in order, or lose out completely. If it means that the price of corks
>> increases dramatically, but with a guaranteed absence of TCA, then the
>> selection process will take place almost automatically.
>
>Exactly and that's just one way in which the quality of the corks will
>increase. Basically what would probably happen is mostly 'fine wine'
>would remain using corks.

I think we're in pretty close agreement on this.

>> Just to lob one awkward little factlet. It's not generally known that for
>> MANY years (like >25), vintage champagne has been aged under crown caps? So
>> aging definitely DOES take place under a hermetic seal.
>
>I'm not sure if you're implying a wine normally has (needs?) contact
>with some air or not...

Well, accepted wisdom is that aging isn't an entirely anaerobic (or
reductive) phenomenon. In fact, for many years, it was held to be an
entirely _oxidative_ process. I lobbed in the crown caps in champagne fact,
to show that aging (at least in champagne) can take place entirely without
oxygen.

>My understanding is that the whole notion of 'corks allow a wine to
>breathe' is the most persitent false myth in wine.

Well, if it's a false myth, then why bother with cork at all? The one thing
we can be sure about, is that with time, long stored cork closed wines lose
some liquid, which is replaced - self evidently - with gas. And this gas HAS
to have come through/past the cork and thus to have contained some oxygen.
Notwithstanding the champagne evidence, I still suspect that wine aging
(especially if it's to happen in a reasonable time scale) has to be a
combination of both oxidative and reductive processes.

> If ANY air was allowed into contact with the wine it would spoil (just like every
>other food product would eventually spoil if exposed to any air). I
>suppose if exposed to tiny amounts, the process simply could just take
>a long time.

Well in a sense, one could argue that aging (in the french sense of
"bonifier" - improve) is merely a stage in the process of spoiling. I find
it hard to draw a line and say "on this side we have an improving wine" and
"on that side we have a wine that's spoiling". Do you see what I'm getting
at here? I see a smooth process from a purple, tannic young wine, through a
fully mature "claret" red wine, to an old bricky pale wine, all on secondary
and tertiary aromas and on to a pale brown dead liquid.And I strongly
suspect that oxygen plays _some_ part in this process.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare > wrote in message >. ..

Hi Ian,

>>
> >The 5% to 15% numbers I've seen usually refer to "corked" wines or
> >wines tainted with TCA. There are other sources of TCA besides the
> >cork itself.
>
> Agreed. Any idea of the figures? I've heard it's under 1 in 5000 bottles.

Unfortunately, no figures. I've just seen a number of reports from
wineries that blamed wide scale TCA contamination on non-cork sources.
Some pulled the wines, others did not.

I think it would be very difficult to put a number to this. When we
open a bottle of '82 bordeaux to find it's "corked", do we really know
the source of the TCA? How do we trace it back after 20 years?

It's also in the best interest of some wineries just to keep their
mouths shut when they find a significant percentage of their wines
tainted. Many consumers will not recognize the taint and most of the
ones that do, will blame the cork. Why would the winery publicly say
"sorry, but it wasn't the cork, it was our use of chlorine bleach to
clean the barrel".

BTW, I applaude the wine maker that sent you the notice.

>
> >Going to Stelvin or synthetic cork is not going to eliminate TCA taint
> >completely.
>
> Agreed, but it would reduce it to levels that are perfectly acceptable IMO.

IMHO, a two pronged approach is needed to fix the problem. Use of
stelvin on many wines (especially those not requiring long term aging)
and spreading the word to wineries on practices that can lead to TCA
taint.

Andy

"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> IMHO, a two pronged approach is needed to fix the problem. Use of
> stelvin on many wines (especially those not requiring long term aging)
> and spreading the word to wineries on practices that can lead to TCA
> taint.

The wineries are becoming pretty well conscious about the potential effects
of using chlorine based cleaners around the winery. The one I work in uses
peroxides these days for tanks and floors, and ozone for barrels. The TCA
problems in the barrel room at Beaulieu Vineyards was a real wake-up call!

I've been lobbying for a Stelvin bottling line, but that idea hasn't really
caught fire here yet. It would be a $50K investment, and that's a
show-stopper at the moment. For the time being, many of us are getting by
with synthetic corqs. Those have improved considerably since their
introduction a few years ago, and the big producers are spending a lot of
time and $$ on R&D efforts to improve them further.

Tom S

Ian Hoare > wrote in message >

> >My understanding is that the whole notion of 'corks allow a wine to
> >breathe' is the most persitent false myth in wine.
>
> Well, if it's a false myth, then why bother with cork at all? The one thing
> we can be sure about, is that with time, long stored cork closed wines lose
> some liquid, which is replaced - self evidently - with gas. And this gas HAS
> to have come through/past the cork and thus to have contained some oxygen.
> Notwithstanding the champagne evidence, I still suspect that wine aging
> (especially if it's to happen in a reasonable time scale) has to be a
> combination of both oxidative and reductive processes.

I think cork's are (and will still) be used for a long time simply for
tradition (though it hasn't been that long a time relatively) but
especially the associated perception of fine wine with corks.
Hrmm, that is completely true...though the lower the fill on an old
wine is a general indication of the wine being oxidized correct?
Eg, if I've got a bottle of 45 Mouton, and it has a low shoulder fill,
that's cause for concern. What you describe above about the gas having
to have entered the bottle via the cork, has probably happened (which
is something that can and does happen, but it's not generally a good
thing...)

>
> > If ANY air was allowed into contact with the wine it would spoil (just like every
> >other food product would eventually spoil if exposed to any air). I
> >suppose if exposed to tiny amounts, the process simply could just take
> >a long time.
>
> Well in a sense, one could argue that aging (in the french sense of
> "bonifier" - improve) is merely a stage in the process of spoiling. I find
> it hard to draw a line and say "on this side we have an improving wine" and
> "on that side we have a wine that's spoiling". Do you see what I'm getting
> at here? I see a smooth process from a purple, tannic young wine, through a
> fully mature "claret" red wine, to an old bricky pale wine, all on secondary
> and tertiary aromas and on to a pale brown dead liquid.And I strongly
> suspect that oxygen plays _some_ part in this process.

I guess the caveat being that ideally you do want a pale brown dead
liquid and unless you're English, you don't want an old bricky pale
wine (just joking ;-)
Ideally the wine would at least never enter the 'brown dead' phase...
That it does happen eventually could be a result of the imprefection
of cork closures.
I wonder if one were to close a wine with glass, or screwcap, in other
words a complete air-tight seal, how long a wine might last? 50 years?
100? indefinitely without ever 'dying'?

It's pretty easy in some wines to see that TCA is from the cork. Any wine
fermented and stored in stainless steel, and bottled within a relatively
short timeframe, if it exhibits TCA- In such an instance, one can properly
assume that the TCA is due to cork taint. In such wines, I'm experiencing
around 10% bad corks. There are other funky smells, aside from TCA, in a
few of the bottles, but it's mainly TCA.

It's true that TCA can be evidenced in wooden barrels and tanks, and other
wood-based wine contact surfaces. However, proper handling of those items,
in the manner historically considered satisfactory, should yield no higher
percentage of TCA-tainted bottles than was historically evident prior to the
cork problem. Why is TCA getting so much press now? The overwhelming cork
problem, not the cellar problems. One could argue that this problem was not
in evidence until the microbial spoilage was introduced into the cellars by
corks. Even if this were not a specious argument, it would still be
pointing to the cork problem. Having seen firsthand, and over many years,
the production of really excellent wines in the dirtiest of buildings and
cellars-- old moldy, mildewy, dingy wooden buildings, I tend to discount
arguments that would point to cellar environment as being a main source of
TCA contamination. A statistically meaningful source, certainly, but not in
any way the main source, industrywide.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> Ian Hoare > wrote in message
>. ..
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> >>
> > >The 5% to 15% numbers I've seen usually refer to "corked" wines or
> > >wines tainted with TCA. There are other sources of TCA besides the
> > >cork itself.
> >
> > Agreed. Any idea of the figures? I've heard it's under 1 in 5000
bottles.
>
> Unfortunately, no figures. I've just seen a number of reports from
> wineries that blamed wide scale TCA contamination on non-cork sources.
> Some pulled the wines, others did not.
>
> I think it would be very difficult to put a number to this. When we
> open a bottle of '82 bordeaux to find it's "corked", do we really know
> the source of the TCA? How do we trace it back after 20 years?
>
> It's also in the best interest of some wineries just to keep their
> mouths shut when they find a significant percentage of their wines
> tainted. Many consumers will not recognize the taint and most of the
> ones that do, will blame the cork. Why would the winery publicly say
> "sorry, but it wasn't the cork, it was our use of chlorine bleach to
> clean the barrel".
>
> BTW, I applaude the wine maker that sent you the notice.
>
> >
> > >Going to Stelvin or synthetic cork is not going to eliminate TCA taint
> > >completely.
> >
> > Agreed, but it would reduce it to levels that are perfectly acceptable
IMO.
>
> IMHO, a two pronged approach is needed to fix the problem. Use of
> stelvin on many wines (especially those not requiring long term aging)
> and spreading the word to wineries on practices that can lead to TCA
> taint.
>
> Andy

Salut/Hi Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines,

le/on Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:59:46 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>It's pretty easy in some wines to see that TCA is from the cork. Any wine
>fermented and stored in stainless steel, and bottled within a relatively
>short timeframe, if it exhibits TCA- In such an instance, one can properly
>assume that the TCA is due to cork taint. In such wines, I'm experiencing
>around 10% bad corks. There are other funky smells, aside from TCA, in a
>few of the bottles, but it's mainly TCA.

Yup, that logic makes very good sense to me.

>It's true that TCA can be evidenced in wooden barrels and tanks, and other
>wood-based wine contact surfaces.

You know - I rather feel for wine makers in this. For years, they sterilised
wood using SO2, and all was fine. Then a very few people claimed (I am not
for moment doubting their sincerity) that they wewre allergic to SO2, and
this put winemakers under pressure to reduce SO2 levels (IMO mainly for
marketing reasons), this meant using alternative sterilising methods - such
as chlorine based disinfectants. And whoops - TCA.


>cork problem. Why is TCA getting so much press now? The overwhelming cork
>problem, not the cellar problems.

Yup I've little doubt this is true. When I first started writing here, I
said (and I stand by) that I'd never knowingly had a corked bottle. That was
only about 5 years ago - on bottles mainly bought pre-1986. In the last
couple of years I've had several bottles where I've recognised TCA. At first
I had thought it was because I was extraordinarily insensitive to it. But in
some more recent cases, _I_ was the one who noticed the contamination first,
confirmed by others. I am led to the conclusion therefore, that I'd not met
it beforehand.


>pointing to the cork problem. Having seen firsthand, and over many years,
>the production of really excellent wines in the dirtiest of buildings and
>cellars-- old moldy, mildewy, dingy wooden buildings, I tend to discount
>arguments that would point to cellar environment as being a main source of
>TCA contamination.

Yup, (thinking of Tokaj cellars and many in Burgundy too!) Cleanliness may
be next to godliness, as the old saw goes, but it sure doesn't seem to be an
essential in the eyes of many winemakers.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi Peter,

le/on 11 Feb 2004 06:45:04 -0800, tu disais/you said:-


>tradition (though it hasn't been that long a time relatively) but
>especially the associated perception of fine wine with corks.

Yes, that is a powerfully held belief. But I don't _think_ I'm falling into
that error.

>Hrmm, that is completely true...though the lower the fill on an old
>wine is a general indication of the wine being oxidized correct?

Not really. Christie's wine auctions (who have probably more experience with
old to very old red bordeaux, than anyone) reckon that top of shoulder is
normal for a >15 yo wine, and not cause for any concern. Where I think we
part company, is over your use of the expression "oxidised" with pejorative
meaning and in contra-distinction to "aged". I believe that oxidation is (or
can be) a normal part of the aging process.

>Eg, if I've got a bottle of 45 Mouton, and it has a low shoulder fill,
>that's cause for concern.

Not really. For Christie's, a low shoulder fill is relatively normal for a
60 yo wine, but nevertheless implies a wine that oughtn't to be stored very
much longer.

>> at here? I see a smooth process from a purple, tannic young wine, through a
>> fully mature "claret" red wine, to an old bricky pale wine, all on secondary
>> and tertiary aromas and on to a pale brown dead liquid.And I strongly
>> suspect that oxygen plays _some_ part in this process.

>Ideally the wine would at least never enter the 'brown dead' phase...
>That it does happen eventually could be a result of the imprefection
>of cork closures.

I'm not sure. I think it's probably a normal and inevitable process.

>I wonder if one were to close a wine with glass, or screwcap, in other
>words a complete air-tight seal, how long a wine might last? 50 years?
>100? indefinitely without ever 'dying'?

A good question. Certainly I've drunk some 19th century wines, which were
still alive, having been under cork, but I've no idea what the fill level
was at the time of opening.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

snip most of Craig's message.

>Having seen firsthand, and over many years, the production of really
excellent wines in the dirtiest of buildings and
>cellars-- old moldy, mildewy, dingy wooden buildings, I tend to discount
>arguments that would point to cellar environment as being a main source of
>TCA contamination. A statistically meaningful source, certainly, but not in
>any way the main source, industrywide.
>
>Craig Winchell
>GAN EDEN Wines
>

Craig

Is there any reason to believe that dirty, moldy cellars, in the absence of
chlorine (or cleaning solutions based on chlorine) should be subject to TCA
contamination?

I confess to be quite ignorant on matters of chemistry, but I wonder if less
cleaning is not, in some ways, better. (realizing there are other contaminants
that can make wines go bad.)

Tom Schellberg

"Xyzsch" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> snip most of Craig's message.
>
> >Having seen firsthand, and over many years, the production of really
> excellent wines in the dirtiest of buildings and
> >cellars-- old moldy, mildewy, dingy wooden buildings, I tend to discount
> >arguments that would point to cellar environment as being a main source
of
> >TCA contamination. A statistically meaningful source, certainly, but not
in
> >any way the main source, industrywide.
> >
> >Craig Winchell
> >GAN EDEN Wines
> >
>
> Craig
>
> Is there any reason to believe that dirty, moldy cellars, in the absence
of
> chlorine (or cleaning solutions based on chlorine) should be subject to
TCA
> contamination?

I can only point out that TCA is present in "natural" corks (treated solely
with sulfite washes) and corks sanitized by peroxide, in addition to corks
sanitized by chlorine substances. I'm not convinced that it's simply a
matter of the presence of macro-concentrations of chlorine. Yes, chlorine
in higher concentrations may cause a very significant statistical increase
in TCA, but why didn't the problem go away whith natural and sulfite treated
corks? There is plenty of chlorine present in the natural environment (it's
one of the most common elements).

>
> I confess to be quite ignorant on matters of chemistry, but I wonder if
less
> cleaning is not, in some ways, better. (realizing there are other
contaminants
> that can make wines go bad.)

Nope, you just get more types of wine-active bugs growing, some of which can
render a wine undrinkable, instead of simply less palatable. Cleaning is
definitely better, all other things being equal.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

>
> Tom Schellberg

"Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Xyzsch" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Is there any reason to believe that dirty, moldy cellars, in the absence
> of
> > chlorine (or cleaning solutions based on chlorine) should be subject to
> TCA
> > contamination?

No, not that I'm aware of. Those types of cellars tend to incubate _other_
types of spoilage.

> I can only point out that TCA is present in "natural" corks (treated
solely
> with sulfite washes) and corks sanitized by peroxide, in addition to corks
> sanitized by chlorine substances. I'm not convinced that it's simply a
> matter of the presence of macro-concentrations of chlorine. Yes, chlorine
> in higher concentrations may cause a very significant statistical increase
> in TCA, but why didn't the problem go away whith natural and sulfite
treated
> corks?

Possibly because it was also present in the winery, but the cork became the
scapegoat?

> There is plenty of chlorine present in the natural environment (it's
> one of the most common elements).

Well of _course_! Sea water has a very high concentration of chlorine, e.g.
That's not the oxidation state of chlorine we're referring to however.

It's not all that clear to me how TCA forms in corks, barrels or cellar
drains - but I believe that it does. It _is_ clear that it doesn't take
very much of it (parts per _trillion_?) to ruin a bottle of wine, and it
seems to have a non-contact form of transmission.

Tom S

"Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > wrote in message nk.net>...
> It's pretty easy in some wines to see that TCA is from the cork. Any wine
> fermented and stored in stainless steel, and bottled within a relatively
> short timeframe, if it exhibits TCA- In such an instance, one can properly
> assume that the TCA is due to cork taint. In such wines, I'm experiencing
> around 10% bad corks. There are other funky smells, aside from TCA, in a
> few of the bottles, but it's mainly TCA.

Any wood in the winery treated with polychlorophenols? It's used as a
wood preservative and has been linked to TCA in wine, even without
direct contact with the wine.

It's my understanding that two things are required for TCA formation,
Chlorine and certain types of microbes. Wood is not a requirement but
can harbor the microbes. When the wood is cleaned/sanitized with
chlorine bleach, it's a deadly combination (for the wine).

>
> It's true that TCA can be evidenced in wooden barrels and tanks, and other
> wood-based wine contact surfaces. However, proper handling of those items,
> in the manner historically considered satisfactory, should yield no higher
> percentage of TCA-tainted bottles than was historically evident prior to the
> cork problem. Why is TCA getting so much press now? The overwhelming cork
> problem, not the cellar problems. One could argue that this problem was not
> in evidence until the microbial spoilage was introduced into the cellars by
> corks. Even if this were not a specious argument, it would still be
> pointing to the cork problem. Having seen firsthand, and over many years,
> the production of really excellent wines in the dirtiest of buildings and
> cellars-- old moldy, mildewy, dingy wooden buildings, I tend to discount
> arguments that would point to cellar environment as being a main source of
> TCA contamination. A statistically meaningful source, certainly, but not in
> any way the main source, industrywide.
>
> Craig Winchell
> GAN EDEN Wines

I'm not totally convinced that the incidence of TCA taint has risen
significantly. Could it be that the reporting of TCA taint by the
media has increased? And because the issue sees a lot more press, more
and more people can identify the taint, when before they just said
"funky smell". Back in the '80s I definitely had bottles that had the
typical TCA smell and taste, I just didn't know what it was from. Now
I do, thanks to the media.

I believe, at one point, there was also a significant increase in the
use of chlorine based cleaning/sanitizing products in wineries.
Hopefully, this trend has reversed as attention is drawn to the
problems it can cause.

I certainly find old bottles with taint, but probably not enough
sampling to come to any meaningful statistics concerning, say, pre
1990 and post 1990 wines. Any one have a large stock of old wines to
donate in the cause of scientific research?

One more thing, why do you say the cork introduced the microbes into
the wineries? My understanding is the microbes are found in more than
just cork trees and that they are rather common.

Andy

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> >
> > "Xyzsch" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Is there any reason to believe that dirty, moldy cellars, in the
absence
> > of
> > > chlorine (or cleaning solutions based on chlorine) should be subject
to
> > TCA
> > > contamination?
>
> No, not that I'm aware of. Those types of cellars tend to incubate
_other_
> types of spoilage.
>
> > I can only point out that TCA is present in "natural" corks (treated
> solely
> > with sulfite washes) and corks sanitized by peroxide, in addition to
corks
> > sanitized by chlorine substances. I'm not convinced that it's simply a
> > matter of the presence of macro-concentrations of chlorine. Yes,
chlorine
> > in higher concentrations may cause a very significant statistical
increase
> > in TCA, but why didn't the problem go away whith natural and sulfite
> treated
> > corks?
>
> Possibly because it was also present in the winery, but the cork became
the
> scapegoat?

Nope. If present only in the cellar, one would expect homogeneity
throughout any given tank of wine prior to bottling, assuming it's been
guthed. In my experience, that clearly has not been the case. Even using
natural corks or peroxide corks, it varies greatly from bottle to bottle,
even with "stainless steel" wines. At least in my case, and I would assume
the vast majority of cases, the TCA problem is due to the corks.

>
> > There is plenty of chlorine present in the natural environment (it's
> > one of the most common elements).
>
> Well of _course_! Sea water has a very high concentration of chlorine,
e.g.
> That's not the oxidation state of chlorine we're referring to however.

That's true. However, there are plenty of oxidizing agents and reducing
agents around the environment, and oxidative states in various things are
changing all the time-luckily, not in large amounts.

>
> It's not all that clear to me how TCA forms in corks, barrels or cellar
> drains - but I believe that it does. It _is_ clear that it doesn't take
> very much of it (parts per _trillion_?) to ruin a bottle of wine, and it
> seems to have a non-contact form of transmission.

There's no question that it does form, and there's no question that small
amounts are all it takes. As I say, there's a history of use of wine
cellars, there's a history of use of corks, and the increase in the problem
over the past few years is well documented, indicating the something changed
over the last few years to cause the problem. The recent health problems in
the cork oak population seems to parallel the increase in the TCA problem in
recent years. With the wealth of evidence, it doesn't take a rocket
scientist, or even an enologist, to understand what's happening. It's
mainly the corks, and solving that problem will, by and large, solve the TCA
problem in wine.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines


>
> Tom S
>
>

"JEP" > wrote in message
om...
> "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > wrote in message
nk.net>...
> > It's pretty easy in some wines to see that TCA is from the cork. Any
wine
> > fermented and stored in stainless steel, and bottled within a relatively
> > short timeframe, if it exhibits TCA- In such an instance, one can
properly
> > assume that the TCA is due to cork taint. In such wines, I'm
experiencing
> > around 10% bad corks. There are other funky smells, aside from TCA, in
a
> > few of the bottles, but it's mainly TCA.
>
> Any wood in the winery treated with polychlorophenols? It's used as a
> wood preservative and has been linked to TCA in wine, even without
> direct contact with the wine.
>
> It's my understanding that two things are required for TCA formation,
> Chlorine and certain types of microbes. Wood is not a requirement but
> can harbor the microbes. When the wood is cleaned/sanitized with
> chlorine bleach, it's a deadly combination (for the wine).
>
> >
> > It's true that TCA can be evidenced in wooden barrels and tanks, and
other
> > wood-based wine contact surfaces. However, proper handling of those
items,
> > in the manner historically considered satisfactory, should yield no
higher
> > percentage of TCA-tainted bottles than was historically evident prior to
the
> > cork problem. Why is TCA getting so much press now? The overwhelming
cork
> > problem, not the cellar problems. One could argue that this problem was
not
> > in evidence until the microbial spoilage was introduced into the cellars
by
> > corks. Even if this were not a specious argument, it would still be
> > pointing to the cork problem. Having seen firsthand, and over many
years,
> > the production of really excellent wines in the dirtiest of buildings
and
> > cellars-- old moldy, mildewy, dingy wooden buildings, I tend to discount
> > arguments that would point to cellar environment as being a main source
of
> > TCA contamination. A statistically meaningful source, certainly, but
not in
> > any way the main source, industrywide.
> >
> > Craig Winchell
> > GAN EDEN Wines
>
> I'm not totally convinced that the incidence of TCA taint has risen
> significantly. Could it be that the reporting of TCA taint by the
> media has increased? And because the issue sees a lot more press, more
> and more people can identify the taint, when before they just said
> "funky smell". Back in the '80s I definitely had bottles that had the
> typical TCA smell and taste, I just didn't know what it was from. Now
> I do, thanks to the media.

Sure, but was it always around 10% funky corks? I agree, there were always
funky bottles, and some of them were definitely TCA. However, I'm convinced
the problem has gotten worse in recent years, based upon my history of
winemaking since 1982, as well as my wine tasting experience dating from the
early '70s. I can tell you that in the '70s, I did occasionally get a funky
bottle, especially from Italy, and occasionally it was what we now know as
TCA, but I experienced nowhere near the number of bad bottles I've
experienced since the mid '80s.

>
> I believe, at one point, there was also a significant increase in the
> use of chlorine based cleaning/sanitizing products in wineries.
> Hopefully, this trend has reversed as attention is drawn to the
> problems it can cause.
>
> I certainly find old bottles with taint, but probably not enough
> sampling to come to any meaningful statistics concerning, say, pre
> 1990 and post 1990 wines. Any one have a large stock of old wines to
> donate in the cause of scientific research?
>
> One more thing, why do you say the cork introduced the microbes into
> the wineries? My understanding is the microbes are found in more than
> just cork trees and that they are rather common.
>

I didn't say that. I said that someone might say that to account for the
fact that the TCA phenomenon is recent, but that it was an invalid argument.

Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines

> Andy

"Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > wrote:

> Nope. If present only in the cellar, one would expect homogeneity
> throughout any given tank of wine prior to bottling, assuming it's
> been guthed. In my experience, that clearly has not been the case.
> Even using natural corks or peroxide corks, it varies greatly from
> bottle to bottle, even with "stainless steel" wines. At least in my
> case, and I would assume the vast majority of cases, the TCA problem
> is due to the corks.

Exactly, 100 pour cent d'accord!

And when JEP asks (in this thread):

| When we open a bottle of '82 bordeaux to find it's "corked", do we
| really know the source of the TCA? How do we trace it back after 20
| years?

I can only answer: Yes, we do know, for every cork tainted bottle of
Chateau Jenesaisquoi 1982, there are five, ten, twenty perfectly clean
bottles. What else than the cork should be the reason?

M. - ceterum censeo corticem esse delendam

Salut/Hi JEP,

le/on 12 Feb 2004 06:41:36 -0800, tu disais/you said:-


>I'm not totally convinced that the incidence of TCA taint has risen
>significantly. Could it be that the reporting of TCA taint by the
>media has increased?

I think for YEARS people have _thought_ any off bottle was corked. However,
from my own (admittedly limited to one family's consumption over 40 years,
and therefore statistically meaningless) experience, I can witness to the
very considerable increase over the last (say) 20 years. Look, it's actually
quite simple, if you think about it. If all wines had always been subject to
TCA contamination to the levels experienced today (5-10%) no one would have
accepted it then. This has _become_ an issue, because the levels of TCA
contamination have risen to an unacceptable level, that's all.

>One more thing, why do you say the cork introduced the microbes into
>the wineries? My understanding is the microbes are found in more than
>just cork trees and that they are rather common.

That may be true, but you don't normally store wine in contact with cabbage
stalks, or whatever or keep them lying around the winery. As Michael (P)
says, if you have a contaminated barrel or whatever, ALL wines made from it
will be corked, and that is NOT what happens, you tend to get one or two
bottles corked. That makes it obvious that the contamination HAS to come
from one of three places:- a) bottle, b) cork c) the capsule. Which of these
three has its hand up?


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Michael Pronay > wrote in message >...
> "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" > wrote:
>
> > Nope. If present only in the cellar, one would expect homogeneity
> > throughout any given tank of wine prior to bottling, assuming it's
> > been guthed. In my experience, that clearly has not been the case.
> > Even using natural corks or peroxide corks, it varies greatly from
> > bottle to bottle, even with "stainless steel" wines. At least in my
> > case, and I would assume the vast majority of cases, the TCA problem
> > is due to the corks.
>
> Exactly, 100 pour cent d'accord!
>
> And when JEP asks (in this thread):
>
> | When we open a bottle of '82 bordeaux to find it's "corked", do we
> | really know the source of the TCA? How do we trace it back after 20
> | years?
>
> I can only answer: Yes, we do know, for every cork tainted bottle of
> Chateau Jenesaisquoi 1982, there are five, ten, twenty perfectly clean
> bottles. What else than the cork should be the reason?
>
> M. - ceterum censeo corticem esse delendam

Were the bottles from the same barrel of wine? Was chlorine used as a
sanitizer and that was the first bottle through the equipment after
cleaning so it picked up the majority of chlorine? Did the bottles
come in contact with chlorine and that one just wasn't rinsed properly
before filling? Did that one cork come into contect with chlorine in
the winery somehow? Is that one bottle the only one that contains TCA
that is above the sensory threshold and the others are just below?
There are many ways that one bottle can be "corked" while its neighbor
is not.

Your point can be said in the reverse, if one cork is TCA tainted, how
can the other corks that came in the same bag not be? Why only that
one cork out of the 5, 10, 20 surrounding it?

There are just too many variables to reliably trace the source of TCA
back, unless it is done right away. We have seen a number of wineries
that have traced the source of TCA contamination back to non-cork
sources. You certainly can't just discount scientific evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that all TCA taint, nor even
the majority, is caused by non-cork sources (I just don't know how
much, and no one really can), but I think it is more wide spread than
some people want to believe and we need to address both cork and
non-cork sources of TCA taint before the problem can be resolved.

Let's not use cork at a scapegoat, but instead address all sources of
TCA taint so we no longer have to worry every time we open a wine that
is dear to us.


Andy