I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!

In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!


This is fairly common and a reason why many merchants won't even sell
futures. Often they are also the victims and then they get to take the
blame from customers, too. One wine merchant I know had this happen. He
did get a refund, but that was little consolation to him or his customers
considering they were without the use of their money for a long period
of time *and* didn't get the wine.


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!


This is fairly common and a reason why many merchants won't even sell
futures. Often they are also the victims and then they get to take the
blame from customers, too. One wine merchant I know had this happen. He
did get a refund, but that was little consolation to him or his customers
considering they were without the use of their money for a long period
of time *and* didn't get the wine.


Dimitri

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it isn't
rare.
If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and purchase
wine
to make his customer whole. What is the problem?

In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it isn't
rare.

If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and purchase
wine to make his customer whole. What is the problem?


The problem is that the market price may be radically different from the
futures price.


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it isn't
rare.

If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and
purchase
wine to make his customer whole. What is the problem?


The problem is that the market price may be radically different from the
futures price.

Well now. Ain't that just too ****ing bad.

"Steve Grant" wrote in
:

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it
isn't rare.

If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and
purchase
wine to make his customer whole. What is the problem?


The problem is that the market price may be radically different from
the futures price.

Well now. Ain't that just too ****ing bad.



Yes it is and enforcing the agreement is not as easy as walking in and
asking nicely as your mother may have taught you. Your response may well be
that of the merchant at that point.

In article ,
Steve Grant wrote:
"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it isn't
rare.

If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and
purchase
wine to make his customer whole. What is the problem?


The problem is that the market price may be radically different from the
futures price.

Well now. Ain't that just too ****ing bad.


Why is this group suddenly populated by idiots?


Dimitri

Not too many years ago, someone in Michigan sold a huge number of
futures to retailers, who in turn sold many to customers(retailers can
hold futures also, if they wish).

None of the wine was delivered. It is my understanding that making
good on these futures almost destroyed Calvert-Woodley in DC.

If all you are buying is the guarantee from the third party, I think
you have to sue the third party.

It is possible that Mr Silver does not have the funds to make good on
these futures, if he got stiffed.


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:12:11 GMT, "Robert Gordon"
wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!

I think R Gordon indicated that he saw them advertising his wine. Therefore
it is likley that if that is the case, and R Gordon is not full of shit,
that the retailer is a crook.

All this is opinion.

Also, he does not have to engage an attorney to sue. Just contact the State
Attorney General office in Albany. I promise if this is accurate it would
be fraud and the state will make them criminally liable. If he stiffed one
person he likely stiffed others. If that statement is true 3 separate acts
might get RICO statute. I bet the retailer would fullfill their obligations
quickly.

the end
"gerald" wrote in message
...
Not too many years ago, someone in Michigan sold a huge number of
futures to retailers, who in turn sold many to customers(retailers can
hold futures also, if they wish).

None of the wine was delivered. It is my understanding that making
good on these futures almost destroyed Calvert-Woodley in DC.

If all you are buying is the guarantee from the third party, I think
you have to sue the third party.

It is possible that Mr Silver does not have the funds to make good on
these futures, if he got stiffed.


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:12:11 GMT, "Robert Gordon"
wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Grant wrote:
"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it
isn't
rare.

If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and
purchase
wine to make his customer whole. What is the problem?


The problem is that the market price may be radically different from
the
futures price.

Well now. Ain't that just too ****ing bad.


Why is this group suddenly populated by idiots?

Presumably you are referring to those mouth-breathers who are clueless
either contract law or basic econ?

He does not necessarily see "his" wine, he sees the same wine, which
Silver may have been procured from a different source. R. Gordon did
not buy wine, he purchased paper with the promise of wine from
someone, though Silver.

I promise(your word) you that this has happened many times, and The
AG has not done anything. I am not an attorney, but buying a title to
the brooklyn bridge through a third party with no delivery does not
make for a good law suit. Buying Lafite from Brand X from Silver
gives you a law suite on Brand X when they do not deliver.

Most retailers make good. I have had only one instance where the us
maker of the futures defaulted, and the retailer made good. The maker
is a "repudable" distributer in the us, and still in business. I
assume he somehow made good at a later date, when he could afford to.

California Futures from MacArthur Beverages are a pretty safe bet.
Otherwise, if it is too good to be true, it is too good.

If you want to sue a few, I have a few for you.

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 14:19:23 GMT, "dick" wrote:

I think R Gordon indicated that he saw them advertising his wine. Therefore
it is likley that if that is the case, and R Gordon is not full of shit,
that the retailer is a crook.

All this is opinion.

Also, he does not have to engage an attorney to sue. Just contact the State
Attorney General office in Albany. I promise if this is accurate it would
be fraud and the state will make them criminally liable. If he stiffed one
person he likely stiffed others. If that statement is true 3 separate acts
might get RICO statute. I bet the retailer would fullfill their obligations
quickly.

the end
"gerald" wrote in message
.. .
Not too many years ago, someone in Michigan sold a huge number of
futures to retailers, who in turn sold many to customers(retailers can
hold futures also, if they wish).

None of the wine was delivered. It is my understanding that making
good on these futures almost destroyed Calvert-Woodley in DC.

If all you are buying is the guarantee from the third party, I think
you have to sue the third party.

It is possible that Mr Silver does not have the funds to make good on
these futures, if he got stiffed.


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:12:11 GMT, "Robert Gordon"
wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!

I think you are mistaken and if there is a fraud, then the retailer sold the
paper. Non of the futures are direct from the foreign winemaker. Therefore
the risk is with the retailer.

If he folds then you have no options. But if open he assumes risk.

I had a situation with the 1995 futures on Chateau Margaux from a place in
Long Island. When the ship sunk bringing in the wine they were obligated by
my contract with them...not Chateau Margaux. And in that case they could
have invoked a special clause that "gods act" but they did not.

They offered my money back at the new level or exchange in mdse to other
wines when they were short. They were reputable.

In this case he saw the same wine...regardless of price it damn near could
be securities fraud. This could be interesting should he take his case
further. Dealing with BTA and AG would not be very nice. If this happened
to me I would go to the AG and present the case of fraud.

I have never been burned in 24 years of buying futures. Never. Deal with
reputable places. The only way I am out is if the retailer goes out of
business. Anything short of that is fraud. My opinion only.

dick

"gerald" wrote in message
...
He does not necessarily see "his" wine, he sees the same wine, which
Silver may have been procured from a different source. R. Gordon did
not buy wine, he purchased paper with the promise of wine from
someone, though Silver.

I promise(your word) you that this has happened many times, and The
AG has not done anything. I am not an attorney, but buying a title to
the brooklyn bridge through a third party with no delivery does not
make for a good law suit. Buying Lafite from Brand X from Silver
gives you a law suite on Brand X when they do not deliver.

Most retailers make good. I have had only one instance where the us
maker of the futures defaulted, and the retailer made good. The maker
is a "repudable" distributer in the us, and still in business. I
assume he somehow made good at a later date, when he could afford to.

California Futures from MacArthur Beverages are a pretty safe bet.
Otherwise, if it is too good to be true, it is too good.

If you want to sue a few, I have a few for you.

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 14:19:23 GMT, "dick" wrote:

I think R Gordon indicated that he saw them advertising his wine.
Therefore
it is likley that if that is the case, and R Gordon is not full of shit,
that the retailer is a crook.

All this is opinion.

Also, he does not have to engage an attorney to sue. Just contact the
State
Attorney General office in Albany. I promise if this is accurate it
would
be fraud and the state will make them criminally liable. If he stiffed
one
person he likely stiffed others. If that statement is true 3 separate
acts
might get RICO statute. I bet the retailer would fullfill their
obligations
quickly.

the end
"gerald" wrote in message
.. .
Not too many years ago, someone in Michigan sold a huge number of
futures to retailers, who in turn sold many to customers(retailers can
hold futures also, if they wish).

None of the wine was delivered. It is my understanding that making
good on these futures almost destroyed Calvert-Woodley in DC.

If all you are buying is the guarantee from the third party, I think
you have to sue the third party.

It is possible that Mr Silver does not have the funds to make good on
these futures, if he got stiffed.


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:12:11 GMT, "Robert Gordon"
wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!

One can sue all parties, the retailer, the importer.....however why not use
Attorney General if fraud was committed. You may not get your money but you
get rid of crooks in the business.

Also, each contract is different but I reviewed Zachys, Winewatch,
Popswine...if they can't deliver I think if reputable you would get your
money back.

All purchases are a risk...but any fraud needs to be prosecuted.

If a retailer does not refund money in full or provide a mutually agreed
upon settlement and/or substibute...then Attorney General for Fraud. Put the
******* out of business.

the end.

my opinion only.

"gerald" wrote in message
...
Not too many years ago, someone in Michigan sold a huge number of
futures to retailers, who in turn sold many to customers(retailers can
hold futures also, if they wish).

None of the wine was delivered. It is my understanding that making
good on these futures almost destroyed Calvert-Woodley in DC.

If all you are buying is the guarantee from the third party, I think
you have to sue the third party.

It is possible that Mr Silver does not have the funds to make good on
these futures, if he got stiffed.


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:12:11 GMT, "Robert Gordon"
wrote:

I have been the victim of an old scam.
I purchased 2000 Bordeaux Futures from Barry Silver
of Silver Spirits in St. James, Long Island, NY.
He does not want to deliver them, and to add insult
to the whole thing, he advertised one of the wines I bought,
the 2000 La Mission on his website. I am suing of course, but
I just wanted insight as to how common this kind of thing is.

I would advise people to be very careful in buying wine futures.
I thought I knew this merchant, but I obviously made a big mistake!

Thank you. I appreciate your well reasoned input.
I am going to call the A.G. office Monday. Can't hurt!

I don't understand D. Gerasimatos who seems to think that
the retailer bears no risk in this transaction. Perhaps he lives
in a country where some different law applies.

"Steve Grant" wrote in message
...
"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Grant wrote:
"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robert Gordon wrote:

I don't understand your message. Bordeaux may be expensive, but it
isn't
rare.

If the merchant doesn't get delivery, he must go to the market and
purchase
wine to make his customer whole. What is the problem?


The problem is that the market price may be radically different from
the
futures price.

Well now. Ain't that just too ****ing bad.


Why is this group suddenly populated by idiots?

Presumably you are referring to those mouth-breathers who are clueless
either contract law or basic econ?

Nice to see your cheerful posting! How have you been doing?

Robb