Mark Lipton confirmed my worries in message
...
I'd first thought of using bleach (a tsp.) and letting it set for
30-60 minutes, then rinsing it "forever." I'm just not convinced
that I'd be able to remove the bleach with enough certainty.
[shrug Over-paranoia, I know.]

Not really paranoia at all. The chlorine smell is *very* hard to
totally remove. However, if you've got access to winemaking
supplies, you can rinse with a solution of sodium metabisulfite,
which will quench the bleach and eliminate all traces of it. Having
said that, I'd still be wary of using bleach and opt instead for
peroxide solution, again rinsing first with metabisfulite and then
with distilled water.

I do have access to those items but have discovered that white vinegar and
rice, while not only handy, worked in a record 15 seconds.

The Ranger

The CLR of course would not remove organics directly. However if there
is an inorganic coating of calcium compounds and such, this coat does
tend to pick up stains - especially in a coffee pot. If you can remove
the inorganic coat, likely much of the organic stain goes with it. At
least that is what seems to happen with a coffee pot where most of the
dark stain on the inorganic deposit likely is organic. If you wash a
decanter, especially with soap rather than detergents, hard water may
produce some film. If the decanter is well rinsed in hard water, but a
bit of water remains in it when it dries, this may also build up some
inorgaic film. In a hard water area I would suggest using detergents,
nonionic when possible, to wash a decanter and then using distilled
water as a final rinse. Distilled water is qute cheap at the grocery,
but be sure to smell it. I have found some that had a bit of smell.

Of course the old classic chemistry lab hot cleaning soution made from
concentrated sulfuric acid, with a chrominum containing compound, would
be much better. However, even if the compounds to make this solution
could be bought for home use, this wold be very dangerous for anyone
without proper safety training and protective equipment. And since
decanters usually are not made of heat-proof glass, the decanter might
have to be slowly warmed to about the temperature of the hot cleaning
solution, before using it, to avoid possible breakage.

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Cwdjrx _ wrote:

The CLR of course would not remove organics directly. However if there
is an inorganic coating of calcium compounds and such, this coat does
tend to pick up stains - especially in a coffee pot. If you can remove
the inorganic coat, likely much of the organic stain goes with it. At
least that is what seems to happen with a coffee pot where most of the
dark stain on the inorganic deposit likely is organic.

I get your point now. However, I suspect that (unlike the case of the
coffee pot) deposits on the inside of the decanter are dried wine that
would be almost free of scale or lime. However, as you say, there may be
other sources of the deposits that would certainly be amenable to your
treatment.

If you wash a
decanter, especially with soap rather than detergents, hard water may
produce some film. If the decanter is well rinsed in hard water, but a
bit of water remains in it when it dries, this may also build up some
inorgaic film. In a hard water area I would suggest using detergents,
nonionic when possible, to wash a decanter and then using distilled
water as a final rinse. Distilled water is qute cheap at the grocery,
but be sure to smell it. I have found some that had a bit of smell.

As a resident of an area with incredibly hard tapwater (a glass of tap
water has a pH of ~9 and if left standing 12 hours will throw a thick
deposit of rust), I face this issue constantly. I wash my glassware with
hot tap water followed *immediately* by distilled water, then dry with a
linen towel. That almost eliminates the deposits, but I am still
ocassionally tempted to take a particularly recalcitrant Riedel fishbowl
into lab for a "cleaning solution" treatment... ;-)



Of course the old classic chemistry lab hot cleaning soution made from
concentrated sulfuric acid, with a chrominum containing compound, would
be much better. However, even if the compounds to make this solution
could be bought for home use, this wold be very dangerous for anyone
without proper safety training and protective equipment. And since
decanters usually are not made of heat-proof glass, the decanter might
have to be slowly warmed to about the temperature of the hot cleaning
solution, before using it, to avoid possible breakage.

As you probably know, chromium VI salts are potent carcinogens, so even I
would not attempt to use chromic acid to clean any drinking vessel. In
fact (you may know this already) even academic labs -- usually the last to
succumb to any regulatory laws -- have been forbidden to use chromic acid
cleaning solutions for over a decade now. OTOH, aqua regia would do quite
a fine job of removing most any deposit from even the most delicate glass
(however, using it on lead crystal would be a Very Bad Idea) and should not
present any human health hazard if properly removed afterward by rinsing.
Still, I don't see myself doing this to my decanters any time soon...

Mark Lipton

I knew that use of chromium salts had been restricted, but I am
surprised that it has even extended to the lab for cleaning solution.
The concern probably is that the chromium salts will be flushed down the
drain and polute a river from which drinking water is drawn downstream.
In the lab, chromium salts are one of the less bothersome compounds that
one works with. At one time I worked with several metallo-organic
compounds including those including chromium, mercury, vanadium, nickel,
etc. Some of the mercury compounds are especially toxic. Some can easily
be absorbed through the skin, and it takes very little to send you to
the morgue.

I have been retired a few years, so I did not hear about the ban on
cleaning solution in labs. I did read that a local petroleum company had
to quit discarding photographic solutions down the drain without
treatment, because of the silver content. I actually did very little
lab wet chemistry except early on. I was one of those people who was
accused of trying to get a physics degree in the chemistry department,
since most of my work involved complex instruments, computers, math, and
such.

I do find it amusing that even the smallest traces of some things the
public thinks of as "chemicals" are banned. Yet people continue to use
smoked and fire-seared meat when it is well know that smoke and charred
meat contain a variety of carcinogens. It seems that if something is
"natural" there often is little concern. Yet botulism toxin is natural
and only a small bottle of it would be enough to kill thousands, if not
millions, of people. Or getting back to wine, too much alcohol can
produce undesirable long term health effects, but most do not cry out to
ban wine because a few abuse it and harm their health. Of course I am
well aware that where I live there is a small minority that would ban
all alcohol and send sellers and users to jail, if they had their way



My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
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Cwdjrx _ wrote:

I knew that use of chromium salts had been restricted, but I am
surprised that it has even extended to the lab for cleaning solution.
The concern probably is that the chromium salts will be flushed down the
drain and polute a river from which drinking water is drawn downstream.

Correct. How universal the ban is I cannot say, nor at what level the
proscription arises, but I know of no researcher who stills uses chromate
cleaning solutions.


In the lab, chromium salts are one of the less bothersome compounds that
one works with. At one time I worked with several metallo-organic
compounds including those including chromium, mercury, vanadium, nickel,
etc. Some of the mercury compounds are especially toxic. Some can easily
be absorbed through the skin, and it takes very little to send you to
the morgue.

Indeed! Small organomercurials are incredibly dangerous things (witness
Minamata for an exceptionally tragic RL demo). Within the last two years,
a Chemistry Professor (NMR) died from mercury poisoning produced by a
dimethylmercury NMR standard. She was wearing two layers of latex glove,
but a drop spilled on her glove traveled through both layers and skin fast
enough to kill her from acute heavy metal toxicity. FWIW,
trimethylstannanes are every bit as bad for us organikers and are volatile
to boot!



I have been retired a few years, so I did not hear about the ban on
cleaning solution in labs. I did read that a local petroleum company had
to quit discarding photographic solutions down the drain without
treatment, because of the silver content.

Silver as a pollutant? Most people would gladly deal with that little
problem, I think. Perhaps they were using cyanide in their processing?

I actually did very little
lab wet chemistry except early on. I was one of those people who was
accused of trying to get a physics degree in the chemistry department,
since most of my work involved complex instruments, computers, math, and
such.

I was one who spent half my time at the computer and half in the lab.
Still do today, matter of fact. Unless you took early retirement, you must
have been among the first generation of scientist to use computers (or I
can't do simple arithmetic).



I do find it amusing that even the smallest traces of some things the
public thinks of as "chemicals" are banned.

Even worse, the word "chemical" itself is now a perjorative, despite the
reality that we are nothing but a huge collection of chemicals assembled in
a particular way!

Yet people continue to use
smoked and fire-seared meat when it is well know that smoke and charred
meat contain a variety of carcinogens.

Ah, but Bruce Ames (inventor of the Ames test for "carcinogenicity") has
shown that even a banana will contain over a hundred different
carcinogens. This in turn has raised the question of whether we as
organisms have evolved to detoxify certain mutagens in our diet. Animal
studies have lent support to that idea, though even a rat is only a so-so
model for human digestion and metabolism. So, despite the potent
mutagenicity of benzo[a]pyrene in soot, there is little to no evidence of
its ability to cause cancer in humans. One argument is that 10-20,000
years of cooking food over open fires has weeded out the susceptible
individuals from the population. Now, if only we could get rats to BBQ
we'd have a strong answer! ;-)

It seems that if something is
"natural" there often is little concern. Yet botulism toxin is natural
and only a small bottle of it would be enough to kill thousands, if not
millions, of people. Or getting back to wine, too much alcohol can
produce undesirable long term health effects, but most do not cry out to
ban wine because a few abuse it and harm their health. Of course I am
well aware that where I live there is a small minority that would ban
all alcohol and send sellers and users to jail, if they had their way

And alas in this country "natural" now carries with it an aura of
healthfulness, hence the advent of "nutraceuticals" as an essentially
unregulated bastion of quackery and charlatans. Chemophobes of the world
beware!

Mark Lipton

I started work at 24 and took early retirement when the place I worked
closed. Yes I go way back with computers. I even used a Bendix G15 and
long forgotten languages such as Intercom and Algo. Then I used the IBM
360 and 370 series with Fortran. Others followed. I have been through
punched paper tapes and cards, large magnetic tapes, casette tapes, etc.
I was so tired of using computers when I retired that I did not bother
to even buy a PC until about a year ago. Some in the computer department
of a local petroeum company called early PC's "pornographs" when the
internet became widely available for PCs. Of course they have PCs all
over the company now, even though they have the top of the line Cray for
big number crunching.

Besides alt.food.wine, about the only wine use I have for the PC is to
keep track of the wine I have. I have my wine list on web pages, and
wrote them in the latest W3C xhtml 1.1. I have played around with a lot
of JavaScript in dhtml applications, etc.

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check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.