I've read a basic level article from my wines store on tasting. It
mentions that a sour(tart) taste is related to acidity and a bitter
taste in the back part of the tongue relates to tannin levels.

As basic as this is, is this a reasonable explanation. I just had a
"wine of the month"

SHIRAZ 1999
VINTAGES 960435 750 mL bottle

Wine, Still Table Wine, Red Still Table Wine
14.0% Alcohol/Vol.
Sugar Content : D

Made in: South Australia, Australia
By: Brokenwood Wines
Release Date: May 18, 2002

I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but
tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not
"jammy" enough for me.
Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my
likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my
preference?

TIA

(from a guy who obviously needs wine tasting 101) ;-}
Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:22:10 -0500, Larry > wrote:

>I've read a basic level article from my wines store on tasting. It
>mentions that a sour(tart) taste is related to acidity and a bitter
>taste in the back part of the tongue relates to tannin levels.

More or less. The tannins are not exactly bitter, more like the mouth
puckering astringency of tea that has steeped too long.

>As basic as this is, is this a reasonable explanation. I just had a
>"wine of the month"
>
>I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but
>tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not
>"jammy" enough for me.
>Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my
>likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my
>preference?

Too dry refers to a lack of mellowness, and as a result a wine where
one only notices the acidity and the tannicity. You might describe
such a wine as hard, severe.

Mike

"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but
> tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not
> "jammy" enough for me.
> Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my
> likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my
> preference?

Most relatively inexperienced tasters equate harsh tannins with "dryness".
The fact is that you might perceive a young, fruity, low tannin red wine,
e.g. Beaujolais Nouveau, as "sweet" compared to the tannic young Shiraz you
described - but they (as most red table wines) probably both have about the
same residual sugar, which is close to zero.

Tom S

Larry wrote:

>
> I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but
> tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not
> "jammy" enough for me.
> Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my
> likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my
> preference?

Larry,
The "dryness" you describe is almost certainly the astringency of
young tannins. As Mike said, this is the same sensation you'll get from
over-extracted tea or banana peel. FWIW, when trying a young, tannic
red wine, you may find it useful to have some food at hand (such as an
aged Cheddar cheese or sausage pieces) to help reduce the astringency of
the tannins and let you appreciate the other aspects of the wine. As
you become a more experienced taster, you'll learn how to factor out the
tannins when tasting a young red.

HTH
Mark Lipton

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:12:38 GMT, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>
>
>Larry wrote:
>
>>
>> I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but
>> tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not
>> "jammy" enough for me.
>> Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my
>> likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my
>> preference?
>
>Larry,
> The "dryness" you describe is almost certainly the astringency of
>young tannins. As Mike said, this is the same sensation you'll get from
>over-extracted tea or banana peel. FWIW, when trying a young, tannic
>red wine, you may find it useful to have some food at hand (such as an
>aged Cheddar cheese or sausage pieces) to help reduce the astringency of
>the tannins and let you appreciate the other aspects of the wine. As
>you become a more experienced taster, you'll learn how to factor out the
>tannins when tasting a young red.
>
>HTH
>Mark Lipton

Thank you Mike, Tom, Mark, and Dan.

Last question. Would a wine like this(I seem to pick a lot of young
shirzes) "mellow" very much in say 2-3 years or would this be the
basic character of the wine no matter how long you cellar it?

Many thanks,

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

If you detect a drying/puckering sensation on your tounge or the insides of
your mouth it is probably the _astringency_ associated with the tannins that
you are experiencing (similar to a sensation you might get with drinking
tea). It is often associated with bitterness, but is not the same thing in
terms of how it registers with the receptors that lead to your preceptions .
.. . astringency is more of a tactile sensation, while bitterness is one of
the 5 basic tastes.

Also, be aware that the term dry is often associated with sweetness in wine.
Red wine tends always to be dry, while white wines can have various levels
of sweetness . . . bone dry, dry, medium dry (off dry), sweet.

justin


"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> I've read a basic level article from my wines store on tasting. It
> mentions that a sour(tart) taste is related to acidity and a bitter
> taste in the back part of the tongue relates to tannin levels.
>
> As basic as this is, is this a reasonable explanation. I just had a
> "wine of the month"
>
> SHIRAZ 1999
> VINTAGES 960435 750 mL bottle
>
> Wine, Still Table Wine, Red Still Table Wine
> 14.0% Alcohol/Vol.
> Sugar Content : D
>
> Made in: South Australia, Australia
> By: Brokenwood Wines
> Release Date: May 18, 2002
>
> I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but
> tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not
> "jammy" enough for me.
> Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my
> likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my
> preference?
>
> TIA
>
> (from a guy who obviously needs wine tasting 101) ;-}
> Larry Stumpf,
> S. Ontario,
> Canada
>
>
>
>
>

Larry wrote:

>
> Last question. Would a wine like this(I seem to pick a lot of young
> shirzes) "mellow" very much in say 2-3 years or would this be the
> basic character of the wine no matter how long you cellar it?

Larry,
That's *exactly* why we do cellar wines. I assure you that I get no
particular pleasure from salting away a powerhouse red wine for 10+ years,
but the end in this case does justify the means: the tannins mellow out and
become smooth, the fruit of its youth comes forward and new, interest
flavors emerge. Different folks like their wines at differing stages of
maturity. I am a relative oenopaedophile compared to the likes of Ian
Hoare, Bill Spohn and John Taverner (to name but a few) -- yet I still age
many wines for a decade or more before drinking them. You will make up
your own mind about how long to give them before they reach their peak in
your eyes. That's why it's so useful to buy multiple bottles of a wine and
drink it at various stages of its development. You learn not only about
the wine, but also about your own tastes. Too many people use Robert
Parker's or the Wine Spectator's "expected maturity" as some sort of gospel,
when in fact it assumes a common set of tastes and storage conditions,
neither of which is a particularly good assumption.

HTH
Mark Lipton

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:38:14 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>
>
>Larry wrote:
>
>>
>> Last question. Would a wine like this(I seem to pick a lot of young
>> shirzes) "mellow" very much in say 2-3 years or would this be the
>> basic character of the wine no matter how long you cellar it?
>
>Larry,
> That's *exactly* why we do cellar wines. I assure you that I get no
>particular pleasure from salting away a powerhouse red wine for 10+ years,
>but the end in this case does justify the means: the tannins mellow out and
>become smooth, the fruit of its youth comes forward and new, interest
>flavors emerge.
<snip>

Hey Mark I can tell you really wanted to say ,
"well......duhhhhh!" ;-}

Thanks Mark, I think I know now not to "condemn" a wine before it hs
had it's chance to shine.

Larry Stumpf,
S. Ontario,
Canada

Larry > wrote:
> Last question. Would a wine like this(I seem to pick a lot of young
> shirzes) "mellow" very much in say 2-3 years or would this be the
> basic character of the wine no matter how long you cellar it?

The tannin taste will definitely disappear as the wine matures. Indeed,
the trick of tasting a young red wine is to try to figure out how the
wine's taste will evolve as it matures. The basic question is whether
there is enough fruit behind the tannins that will remain once the tannins
drop out. With a good wine, as it ages the tannins dissipate, the fruit
becomes more dominant, and the wine flavours become more complex. With a
bad wine, the tannins dissipate, the lack of fruit become more obvious, and
you're left with bland, uninteresting, watery red liquid.

Dryness is a lack of sweetness. As to Tannin vs Acidity, Tannin is an
atribute of a good aged red wine, much of it imparted through aging in
oak barrels (as to taste, too much tannin is like a cup of tea that has
been steeped too long, whereas acidity a pleasing attribute of some
lighter reds but mostly in white wines) Too much acidity is like too
much lemon in your tea. If you want to try one of the most acidic wines
in the world try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley. It is too acid for most
foods, but is awesome with clams & oysters. It's almost like drinking
lemon juice. If this helps give me a shout. Carl

After Malvern Hill Pres. Lincoln visited with Gens. Mc Clellen & Sumner
as well as Col. Nugent (Commander of the Irish Brigade.)` A Lt. James.
M. Birmingham, Adjutant of the 88th N. Y. came from a swim in the James
R. & with his underwear drying on his body saw them talking. He ducked
behind some cover to eavesdrop in time to see & hear Pres. Lincoln
(overcome with emotion at the bravery & sacrifice of the Irish Brigade.)
as he lifted a corner of the 69th N. Y.'s flag, kissed it & said "God
bless this Irish flag" From Joseph Bilby's book
"Remember Fontenoy" on the Irish Brigade
Lancaster Civil War Round Table Website
http://community.webtv.net/GrayGhost...eCivilWarRound Carl
Speros webmaster.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 06:50:23 -0500 (EST), (E. Carl Speros) said:

] Dryness is a lack of sweetness. As to Tannin vs Acidity, Tannin is an
] atribute of a good aged red wine, much of it imparted through aging in
] oak barrels (as to taste, too much tannin is like a cup of tea that has
] been steeped too long, whereas acidity a pleasing attribute of some
] lighter reds but mostly in white wines) Too much acidity is like too
] much lemon in your tea. If you want to try one of the most acidic wines
] in the world try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley. It is too acid for most
] foods, but is awesome with clams & oysters. It's almost like drinking
] lemon juice. If this helps give me a shout. Carl
]
]

Oh for goodness sakes. Muscadet is not from the Rhone Valley, it's from
the mouth of the Loire near Nantes. It tastes nothing like lemon juice. If
you've been getting overly acidic Muscadet, I suggest you try a different
producer.

When you say that muscadet and shellfish go well together, no one
will disagree.

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

Wrong!!!

After Malvern Hill Pres. Lincoln visited with Gens. Mc Clellen & Sumner
as well as Col. Nugent (Commander of the Irish Brigade.)` A Lt. James.
M. Birmingham, Adjutant of the 88th N. Y. came from a swim in the James
R. & with his underwear drying on his body saw them talking. He ducked
behind some cover to eavesdrop in time to see & hear Pres. Lincoln
(overcome with emotion at the bravery & sacrifice of the Irish Brigade.)
as he lifted a corner of the 69th N. Y.'s flag, kissed it & said "God
bless this Irish flag" From Joseph Bilby's book
"Remember Fontenoy" on the Irish Brigade
Lancaster Civil War Round Table Website
http://community.webtv.net/GrayGhost...eCivilWarRound Carl
Speros webmaster.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:56:08 -0500 (EST), (E. Car=
l Speros) said:

] Wrong!!!
]=20

Carl,

Firstly, I know it's hard to properly attribute using webtv, but make an ef=
fort would you?
Otherwise, folks might not realize that you said:

"try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley. "

and I said:

"it's from the mouth of the Loire near Nantes."

Now, let me fill you in a little more, because apparently you're misinformed
in this matter.

AOC Muscadet is broken in to 4 sub-regions: "Muscadet", "Muscadet S=E8vre =
et Maine",
"Muscadet Coteaux de la Loire" and "Muscadet Cotes de Grandlieu."

The appellations taken as a whole straddle the departments of the Vend=E9e,=
Maine et Loire
and Loire Atlantique. They form a 3/4 circle roughly around the city of Na=
ntes,
with the upper left quadrant open.

Where in the Rhone valley, a bit of a specialty of mine, might I find your =
"muscadet?"
Are you thinking of St Peray, or some hidden corner of the Massif du Diois =
unknown
to us more plebian folk?

Lastly, I'm sure everyone appreciates your enthusiastic postings. But this=
is an
international group, and there are some folks here with a good bit of knowl=
edge.
(I don't claim to be one, although I potter in my own fashion.) Try and ge=
t=20
the facts right, otherwise you'll confuse newbies who are here to learn.

I mean this in the nicest and most respectful way, I hope you'll receive it=
in that
spirit.

-E


--=20
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

>Wrong!!!

Not much point in posting a one word answer (to what?).

And get rid of that ridiculous long sig file - quite tedious.

Oh, sorry, didn't notice you were a web tv type. Figures, I guess.

(E. Carl Speros) wrote:

> Wrong!!!

Bullshit.

M.

In article >, Emery Davis
> writes:

> Muscadet is not from the Rhone Valley, it's from
>the mouth of the Loire near Nantes. It tastes nothing like lemon juice. If
>you've been getting overly acidic Muscadet, I suggest you try a different
>producer.

While good Muscadet of course has some zippy acidity, you're of course right
that it's nothing like lemon juice. You couldn't even say that about
Savennieres, which is probably the most acidic wine I know (and one of my
personal favorites).

Thanks Emery for the nice synopsis of Muscadet. Are you familiar with the wines
of Marc Olliver (Domaine de Pepiere)?

Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

On 13 Dec 2003 19:35:08 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams) said:

[]
] Thanks Emery for the nice synopsis of Muscadet. Are you familiar with the wines
] of Marc Olliver (Domaine de Pepiere)?
]

Hi Dale,

Can't say I am. Sounds like one to look for!

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 06:50:23 -0500 (EST),
(E. Carl Speros) wrote:

>Dryness is a lack of sweetness.

Sounds right to me.

> As to Tannin vs Acidity, Tannin is an
>atribute of a good aged red wine, much of it imparted through aging in
>oak barrels (as to taste, too much tannin is like a cup of tea that has
>been steeped too long,

If much of tannin were attributed to oak aging, then aged whites would
be tanninc too (and of course, they are, but not reallly).

Tannin is more an attribute of young brash reds, and through aging the
tannin gets rounded out and some new oak tannins are added, but of a
different kind.

> whereas acidity a pleasing attribute of some
>lighter reds

A non-light red destined for long aging has to have a good acid
backbone or it will not age, it will just fade. So it is not just in
light reds.

> but mostly in white wines) Too much acidity is like too
>much lemon in your tea. If you want to try one of the most acidic wines
>in the world try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley.

Try chenin from the loire.

> It's almost like drinking
>lemon juice.

No it is not.


>After Malvern Hill Pres. Lincoln visited with Gens. Mc Clellen & Sumner

What has this got to do with it?

Mike

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> A non-light red destined for long aging has to have a good acid
> backbone or it will not age, it will just fade. So it is not
> just in light reds.

No rule without exception. Bordeaux reds from 1947, 1953, 1959, 1982,
1989, and 2000 were all low in acidity - and have been criticized
in their youth for exactly this fact - but have kept beautifully.

M.

>Different folks like their wines at differing stages of
>maturity. I am a relative oenopaedophile compared to the likes of Ian
>Hoare, Bill Spohn and John Taverner (to name but a few) -- yet
>I still age
>many wines for a decade or more before drinking them. You will make up
>your own mind about how long to give them before they reach their peak in
>your eyes. That's why it's so useful to buy multiple bottles of a wine and
>drink it at various stages of its development. You learn not only about
>the wine, but also about your own tastes. Too many people use Robert
>Parker's or the Wine Spectator's "expected maturity" as some sort of gospel,
>when in fact it assumes a common set of tastes and storage conditions,
>neither of which is a particularly good assumption.
>
>HTH
>Mark Lipton
>
>
I should take your advise Mark. I don't buy enough cases of things.

With regard to the expected maturity, even with a fixed set of storage
conditions and tastes, bottle variation is significant with older wines. So if
I take my geriatric tastes in wine and two different bottles of the same wine
from my cellar, one may by chance be far more foreward (ready) than another.

I think this is something all of us with cellars are aware of, but it something
a new taster needs to understand. This is another reason not to take the wine
writer's opinions on drinking windows as gospel.

So why was my 93 Beaune Montremenots (Mussy) so lacking in fruit? Another
bottle last year was great. Maybe my TCA insensitive palate could not detect a
possible problem, or maybe its just dumb now. I have no way of being sure.

Tom Schellberg

> I am a relative oenopaedophile compared to the likes of Ian
>>Hoare, Bill Spohn and John Taverner

Crikey, boys, they've relgated us to oenological dotage!

Either that or he's telling us gently that we are toss-pots.

On the Burgs, many 91s are not yet ready; many 93s are coming into prime time -
your poor bottle was probably just that, rather than an indicator of more
generalised decrepitude, Tom.

Caveat - far more people drink Burgundies too old than too young. If you must
sin one way or the other, better to sup when the fruit still courses than when
it has flown, I say.

>n the Burgs, many 91s are not yet ready; many 93s are coming into prime time
>-
>your poor bottle was probably just that, rather than an indicator of more
>generalised decrepitude, Tom.

I have two more bottles of this wine. I'll wait another six months to one year
and try again.

Tom Schellberg

Hi E Carl

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 06:50:23 -0500 (EST),
(E. Carl Speros) wrote:

>Dryness is a lack of sweetness.

I'd say that a dry wine is better defined as a wine with a low
quantity of residual sugar.

> As to Tannin vs Acidity, Tannin is an atribute of a good aged red wine, much of it imparted through aging in
>oak barrels

No. Tannins in wine come from stalks/pips/skin, above all skin.
Although oak does contain tannin, not all barrel aging of reds will
increase tannins. It depends on whether it's new oak, or not, how high
an original tannin level you start with and so on. If you don't
believe me go to taste the Hospice de Beaune wines before the Auction
in late November. The wines have just concluded their fermentation in
vats (oak or s/s) and have most certainly NOT had time to absorb
tannins from the wood. If you actualy TASTE young wines, during the
first few months of their lives, you will find that your statement is
in error, I'm afraid.

Furthermore, in the aging process, tannins polymerize and form
deposits, and therefore good aged wines are LESS tannic than theiy
were in their youth. I really don't know where you got such an
erroneous view of red wine evolution, but believe me (and quite a few
of the other more knowledgeable members of the NG) when they tell you
it IS erroneous.

>Too much acidity is like too much lemon in your tea.

Not a bad analogy but then you RUIN it by talking utter nonsense.

> If you want to try one of the most acidic wines in the world try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley.

No. Firstly Muscadet is considered to be a Loire wine not from the
Rhone. Secondly, although bad examples show as quite sharp, they have
FAR less acidity than say a Saar or Ruwer wine from a minor year which
really can sear your mouth! As Dale says, Savennières is often
considerably more acidic.

Generally, please don't be put off from contributing, but you should
perhaps make a little more effort to get your facts right, as Emery
says (and despite his disclaimer, he's no slouch when it comes to wine
knowledge).


All the best
Ian
(To reply by email PLEASE don't use "Reply to" bu
use my name at wanadoo.fr) Thanks.