I am arranging a wine tasting in which I intend to compare American
chardonnay and pinot noir with their Burgundian counterparts. I drink a
lot of chardonnay, so that is easy for me. However, when I drink pinot
noir it is usually French. There are some American producers I think are
acceptable (Williams-Selyem, Davis-Bynum, Dehlinger, Au Bon Climat, Carneros,
Paul Hobbs, Drouhin, Ojai, David Bruce, Flowers, maybe Peter Michael) but they
are often too expensive for what they are. (The above list is my list of
candidates based on wines I have had.)


The French wines I am thinking of are premier crus from Gevry-Chambertin,
Chambolle-Musigny, Morey-St.Denis, and Chassagne-Montrachet. I haven't
chosen the wines yet, but the producers will probably be Lafon, Faively, Jadot,
Chivillon, Girardin, and Niellon. There may be a grand cru or two, but
I don't want this to be a slugfest - just a nice way to evaluate
good-drinking pinots at relatively affordable prices.


I am looking for recommendations for American pinot (Oregon, California
probably) that will compare favorably at similar prices (~$40 or less). If
you know of any French wines that might be interesting to include
(especially at a lower price point) I'll listen, too.


No pink wines! I like pinot to have color!


Dimitri

Domaine Drouhin of Oregon is one of my favorites of Oregon Chards. About
$25-$30 bottle last time I bought.


"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...

I am arranging a wine tasting in which I intend to compare American
chardonnay and pinot noir with their Burgundian counterparts. I drink a
lot of chardonnay, so that is easy for me. However, when I drink pinot
noir it is usually French. There are some American producers I think are
acceptable (Williams-Selyem, Davis-Bynum, Dehlinger, Au Bon Climat,
Carneros,
Paul Hobbs, Drouhin, Ojai, David Bruce, Flowers, maybe Peter Michael) but
they
are often too expensive for what they are. (The above list is my list of
candidates based on wines I have had.)


The French wines I am thinking of are premier crus from Gevry-Chambertin,
Chambolle-Musigny, Morey-St.Denis, and Chassagne-Montrachet. I haven't
chosen the wines yet, but the producers will probably be Lafon, Faively,
Jadot,
Chivillon, Girardin, and Niellon. There may be a grand cru or two, but
I don't want this to be a slugfest - just a nice way to evaluate
good-drinking pinots at relatively affordable prices.


I am looking for recommendations for American pinot (Oregon, California
probably) that will compare favorably at similar prices (~$40 or less). If
you know of any French wines that might be interesting to include
(especially at a lower price point) I'll listen, too.


No pink wines! I like pinot to have color!


Dimitri

In article , (D.
Gerasimatos) writes:

The French wines I am thinking of are premier crus from Gevry-Chambertin,
Chambolle-Musigny, Morey-St.Denis, and Chassagne-Montrachet. I haven't
chosen the wines yet, but the producers will probably be Lafon, Faively,
Jadot,
Chivillon, Girardin, and Niellon. There may be a grand cru or two, but
I don't want this to be a slugfest - just a nice way to evaluate
good-drinking pinots at relatively affordable prices.


I am looking for recommendations for American pinot (Oregon, California
probably) that will compare favorably at similar prices (~$40 or less)

Dimitri,

First tell me where you're getting Lafon and Niellon 1er Crus at $40 or less!

My first vote in Oregon usually goes to St. Innocent.

In California I tend to have a preference for wines from Carneros over the
bigger RRVs. I have a historical fondness for Saintsbury, some vintages of the
Reserve ('95 stands out) are quite good, though a '98 recently failed to
impress. Depending on how many wines you are serving, you might try to have an
Oregon, a Carneros, a Russian River Valley, and maybe one from the Santa
Barbara area. Compare with 4 different villages of Burgundy.

As to the Burgundy, hard to argue with producers like Chevillon (my fave in
NSG), but as you're including Chambolles I'd rec Roumier and Mugnier. Probably
only village wines, no 1ers, for under $40, but I'd stack their village
Chambolles against 95% of the premiers. And very distinctively Burgundy, you'd
never mistake for New World.

Please post notes on the event!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article ,
Dale Williams wrote:

First tell me where you're getting Lafon and Niellon 1er Crus at $40 or less!


If I told you that I'd have to kill you.


I can find these for about $60 (not the tete du cuvees), sometimes even
less. The 97 Niellon Chassagne is about $50. The Lafon Volnay 1er is a little
more. $40 is meant to be a median, not a cap. Maybe I should've said
$20-60 instead. The wines do not *have* to be premier crus, but I just
threw that out there as an idea of the quality range I am expecting. No
DRC or Marcassin.


Obviously the village wines of good producers can top the grand crus of
mediocre ones. You pretty much mention that below.


Depending on how many wines you are serving, you might try to have an
Oregon, a Carneros, a Russian River Valley, and maybe one from the Santa
Barbara area. Compare with 4 different villages of Burgundy.


Not a bad idea.


As to the Burgundy, hard to argue with producers like Chevillon (my fave in
NSG), but as you're including Chambolles I'd rec Roumier and Mugnier. Probably
only village wines, no 1ers, for under $40, but I'd stack their village
Chambolles against 95% of the premiers. And very distinctively Burgundy, you'd
never mistake for New World.


Thanks for the advice!


Dimitri

The 97 Niellon Chassagne is about $50. The Lafon Volnay 1er is a little
more. $40 is meant to be a median, not a cap. Maybe I should've said
$20-60 instead

That sounds about right. I paid around $55 each for the 1999 and 2000 Lafon
Volnay Santenots Milieu, and the 1er runs around $45 or so on release.

I am a burg fan first and foremost, but for suggestions of US Pinots to add to
the mix I would consider,

Ken Wright
Brick House (best for this tasting, if you can find it)
Drouhin
Rex Hill
Beaux Freres

For Chardonnay, much more difficult. But there are some out there that would
make intruiging comparisons- though no CA chardonnay can hold a candle to
Niellon (I am recalling an event of Niellon vs. Kistler as I write this)

Paul Hobbs is my #1 suggestion
Montelena
Ferrari Carano
Kistler
Ponzi
Mer de Soleil

I have not necessarily chosen the best wines, but rather ones that I think
would make some interesting conversation. The Mer de Soleil is a wine I
personally detest for being so overblown, but it will make a good comparison to
the ripe Niellon just to see the different approaches.

Also, if you are open to expanding beyond Chard, stick a Beringer Alluvium
Blanc or Caymus Conundrum in the mix. Would make for a good ringer if this will
be a bling tasting- and will keep everyone guessing.

Have fun and please post TNs here! I would love to see how this goes.

Take care,

Tom.

PS- I really like your burgundy choices for this event. A very good cross
section of the various styles in a small grouping.

I am looking for recommendations for American pinot (Oregon, California
probably) that will compare favorably at similar prices (~$40 or less).

Try Patz and Hall or Archery Summit.
Bi!!

Oregon Pinots to try

Antica Terra (small vintner) 2001 Croft Vineyard was
especially good (but I think that it's sold out)
Owen Roe/Sineann/David Reilly (same vintner, different labels)
Winter Hill ($25 range out here)
Witness Tree (some good WS ratings for it's 1998 bottling)

These are mostly in the $25 to $45 range, although O'Reilly makes a
cheaper Pinot that's decent.

BTW, Hill of Content (Aussie or NZ, I forget) made a very nice Pinot
for under $20 or recent vintage. Haven't seen the latest release yet.

Cheers

Mike H

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:43:22 +0000 (UTC),
(D. Gerasimatos) wrote:


I am arranging a wine tasting in which I intend to compare American
chardonnay and pinot noir with their Burgundian counterparts. I drink a
lot of chardonnay, so that is easy for me. However, when I drink pinot
noir it is usually French. There are some American producers I think are
acceptable (Williams-Selyem, Davis-Bynum, Dehlinger, Au Bon Climat, Carneros,
Paul Hobbs, Drouhin, Ojai, David Bruce, Flowers, maybe Peter Michael) but they
are often too expensive for what they are. (The above list is my list of
candidates based on wines I have had.)


The French wines I am thinking of are premier crus from Gevry-Chambertin,
Chambolle-Musigny, Morey-St.Denis, and Chassagne-Montrachet. I haven't
chosen the wines yet, but the producers will probably be Lafon, Faively, Jadot,
Chivillon, Girardin, and Niellon. There may be a grand cru or two, but
I don't want this to be a slugfest - just a nice way to evaluate
good-drinking pinots at relatively affordable prices.


I am looking for recommendations for American pinot (Oregon, California
probably) that will compare favorably at similar prices (~$40 or less). If
you know of any French wines that might be interesting to include
(especially at a lower price point) I'll listen, too.


No pink wines! I like pinot to have color!


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote:

I am arranging a wine tasting in which I intend to compare American
chardonnay and pinot noir with their Burgundian counterparts. I drink a
lot of chardonnay, so that is easy for me. However, when I drink pinot
noir it is usually French. There are some American producers I think are
acceptable (Williams-Selyem, Davis-Bynum, Dehlinger, Au Bon Climat, Carneros,
Paul Hobbs, Drouhin, Ojai, David Bruce, Flowers, maybe Peter Michael) but they
are often too expensive for what they are. (The above list is my list of
candidates based on wines I have had.)

Dimitri,
In place of Davis Bynum, I'd take Gary Farrell (IMO one of the superstars of
CA PN) -- and do you mean Carneros Creek? Like Dale, I'd add Saintsbury Reserve
to your list. And if you really want to throw people for a loop, try to find some
of Gruet's Pinot Noir (from New Mexico) -- it's very good and much closer to
France than CA in orientation.

Like the others, I hope that you post notes!
Mark Lipton

In article ,
Mark Lipton wrote:

In place of Davis Bynum, I'd take Gary Farrell (IMO one of the superstars of
CA PN) -- and do you mean Carneros Creek?


I meant Domaine Carneros.


I like Gary Farrell's wines, but believe it or not I was not excited by
his pinots. I visited his winery earlier this year and my favorite wines
were his whites! I think he does have some vineyard designate pinot that I
did not taste, though. It's fuzzy, but I think I had the Russian River
bottling and the Sonoma County bottling of pinot. Neither were exciting.


I went to Davis-Bynum right after Gary Farrell. Gary used to be the winemaker
for Davis-Bynum. Most of Davis-Bynum's wines were not good. Overall, Gary's
were better. However, Davis-Bynum has an Allen Vineyard bottling that is simply
outstanding. It stuck out like a sore thumb and of course I bought some.
The other difference with that bottling is that it was one of the few
wines made by Davis-Bynum's new winemaker (who started with the 2000 or
2001 vintage). The previous winemaker (not Gary) must not have been very
good, but I see that the winery has won some accolades lately. The Allen
Vineyard bottling scored a 92 in Wine Enthusiast.


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote:


I meant Domaine Carneros.

Aha! Yes, their "Famous Gate" is quite a nice wine (in the years I've tried it).



I like Gary Farrell's wines, but believe it or not I was not excited by
his pinots. I visited his winery earlier this year and my favorite wines
were his whites! I think he does have some vineyard designate pinot that I
did not taste, though. It's fuzzy, but I think I had the Russian River
bottling and the Sonoma County bottling of pinot. Neither were exciting.

That's too bad. His "Allen Vyd" and "Rochioli" bottlings are typically
standouts, but the '99 RRV is also a very good Pinot Noir. I haven't had the most
recent offerings, but now you've got me worred...



I went to Davis-Bynum right after Gary Farrell. Gary used to be the winemaker
for Davis-Bynum. Most of Davis-Bynum's wines were not good. Overall, Gary's
were better. However, Davis-Bynum has an Allen Vineyard bottling that is simply
outstanding. It stuck out like a sore thumb and of course I bought some.
The other difference with that bottling is that it was one of the few
wines made by Davis-Bynum's new winemaker (who started with the 2000 or
2001 vintage). The previous winemaker (not Gary) must not have been very
good, but I see that the winery has won some accolades lately. The Allen
Vineyard bottling scored a 92 in Wine Enthusiast.

I'll have to look for it. My memories of Davis Bynum go back to the days when
their office was located on San Pablo Ave. near the Berkeley/Albany border. On
my most recent visit to their current winery, I got into a long conversation with
his son, the current owner. Despite my fond memories, their wines were quite
unexciting (that was Dec. '01, however, shortly after Mr. Farrell had left) and he
pressed me to buy his '99 "Le Pinot" (at $75/bottle) without the benefit of
tasting it, a not terribly pleasant situation that I escaped as quickly as I
could.

Mark Lipton

In article ,
Mark Lipton wrote:
"D. Gerasimatos" wrote:

I meant Domaine Carneros.

Aha! Yes, their "Famous Gate" is quite a nice wine (in the years I've tried
it).


I like it, too, although at $40 it is more of a novelty. I think it is
available only direct from the winery.


That's too bad. His "Allen Vyd" and "Rochioli" bottlings are typically
standouts, but the '99 RRV is also a very good Pinot Noir. I haven't had the
most recent offerings, but now you've got me worred...


These sell out quickly and while they were offered at the winery they were
not pouring them. If I recall correctly, they were expensive, too ($50).
I'm sure they are good, though, since the fruit is good. I liked Gary's
sauvignon blanc, chardonnay, and zinfandel better. It's not that the pinot
was *bad*, though - just too expensive for what it is.


I'll have to look for it. My memories of Davis Bynum go back to the days when
their office was located on San Pablo Ave. near the Berkeley/Albany border.
On my most recent visit to their current winery, I got into a long
conversation with his son, the current owner. Despite my fond memories,
their wines were quite unexciting (that was Dec. '01, however, shortly
after Mr. Farrell had left) and he pressed me to buy his '99 "Le Pinot"
(at $75/bottle) without the benefit of asting it, a not terribly pleasant
situation that I escaped as quickly as I could.


I got this feeling from them, too. They really wanted to push whatever it
was that they could get away with. Most of there wines *are* unexciting,
but the Allen Vineyard bottling stands out from the rest and I told them
as much. That is when they mentioned the new winemaker. I haven't been
back, so I don't now what the new releases are like.


Dimitri

I have always had great tastes from Robert Stemmler (Sonoma)

In article ,
(D. Gerasimatos) wrote:

I am arranging a wine tasting in which I intend to compare American
chardonnay and pinot noir with their Burgundian counterparts. I drink a
lot of chardonnay, so that is easy for me. However, when I drink pinot
noir it is usually French. There are some American producers I think are
acceptable (Williams-Selyem, Davis-Bynum, Dehlinger, Au Bon Climat, Carneros,
Paul Hobbs, Drouhin, Ojai, David Bruce, Flowers, maybe Peter Michael) but
they
are often too expensive for what they are. (The above list is my list of
candidates based on wines I have had.)


The French wines I am thinking of are premier crus from Gevry-Chambertin,
Chambolle-Musigny, Morey-St.Denis, and Chassagne-Montrachet. I haven't
chosen the wines yet, but the producers will probably be Lafon, Faively,
Jadot,
Chivillon, Girardin, and Niellon. There may be a grand cru or two, but
I don't want this to be a slugfest - just a nice way to evaluate
good-drinking pinots at relatively affordable prices.


I am looking for recommendations for American pinot (Oregon, California
probably) that will compare favorably at similar prices (~$40 or less). If
you know of any French wines that might be interesting to include
(especially at a lower price point) I'll listen, too.


No pink wines! I like pinot to have color!


Dimitri


Kalin Pinot Noir has bcome my all-time favorite.

In article ,
Lawrence Leichtman wrote:

Kalin Pinot Noir has bcome my all-time favorite.


Kalin makes good wines. I have had the sauvignon blanc and I am currently
cellaring chardonnay. I have heard the pinot is very good, but also quite
unusual. What are your other favorites so that I may calibrate?


Dimitri

In article ,
(D. Gerasimatos) wrote:

In article ,
Lawrence Leichtman wrote:

Kalin Pinot Noir has bcome my all-time favorite.


Kalin makes good wines. I have had the sauvignon blanc and I am currently
cellaring chardonnay. I have heard the pinot is very good, but also quite
unusual. What are your other favorites so that I may calibrate?


Dimitri


I also like Chalone. A few Oregon Pinot such as King and Adelsheim have
been OK but Kalin is one of the best and all their wines are library
wines to begin with. Their Sauvignon blanc is probably the most
interesting taste in all California wines and current release is 1995
for it and the Pinot.