Hello,
Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736 (earlier
apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no indication of the
provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH, would indicate somthing
wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a crossing, most likely form the
vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
Does anybody know?

TIA

Cheers

Nils

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
>> Hello,
>> Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
>> cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736
>> (earlier apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no
>> indication of the provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH,
>> would indicate somthing wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a
>> crossing, most likely form the vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
>> Does anybody know?
>
> Most dictionaries give its etymologie as "unknown".
>
> CABERNET, subst. masc.
> Étymol. et Hist. 1866 (Lar. 19e). Terme du Médoc, peut-être dér. du lat.
> caput, désignant un cépage de vigne noire qu'on appelait au Moyen Âge
> vitis biturica (A. Cavignac, Les Noms de lieux du canton de Blanquefort
> [Gironde], thèse de l'École Nationale des Chartes, 1968, 3 vol. dactyl.,
> t. 1, pp. 205-206); v. aussi R. Dion, Hist. de la vigne et du vin en
> France des origines au XIXe s., Paris, 1959, pp. 124-125; FEW t. 22, fasc.
> no 138, p. 67a.

Yes - and I find the derivation from caput slightly less than believable ...
Perhaps it means riesling?

Cheers

Nils

The Cabernet Sauvignon is a cross between Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon
Blanc...
Cabernet might be from "Carbonet" - "Coalblack" according to Wein-plus
glossary

Anders

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
...
> Hello,
> Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
> cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736
> (earlier apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no
> indication of the provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH,
> would indicate somthing wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a
> crossing, most likely form the vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
> Does anybody know?
>
> TIA
>
> Cheers
>
> Nils
>

This might be true as there is an alternative spelling, carbenet, according
to some of the dictionaries.
Just one thing though - neither CabSauv nor CabFranc are coal black ...

I guess I'll just have it down as etymology unknown and waffle a bit.

I am preparaing a lecture on Cab Sauv for the tastevins rookies, that's why,
in case you are curious.

Cheers and thanks for taking an interest

Nils

"Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> The Cabernet Sauvignon is a cross between Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon
> Blanc...
> Cabernet might be from "Carbonet" - "Coalblack" according to Wein-plus
> glossary
>
> Anders
>
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
> ...
>> Hello,
>> Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
>> cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736
>> (earlier apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no
>> indication of the provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH,
>> would indicate somthing wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a
>> crossing, most likely form the vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
>> Does anybody know?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Nils
>>
>
>

<scots>
And will ye nae be tellin' us aboot that grate spoRRtsman, Lafitter, who
gied his name to the castle Lafitte? I hae nae finded a wae tae wark in the
Rotschild into't, but I'm aye woRRking on't ...
</scots>
"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> The real etymology:
>
> Cabernet refers to a game that had developed in Aquitaine a few decades
> before the 1855 classification of the local crus. At the time there was a
> large scottish community, and when the caber ******* met with the local
> football players, they decided to replace the ball with a large stick. The
> ******* had to chuck the big stick (actually a tree trunk) into each
> other's net, hence the name "caber-net" (pron: cay-behr-net). When the
> french ******* scored, it was called a caber-net franc. When the scottish
> ******* scored, it was called a caber-net sauvignon (they were considered
> wild men, and their mascot was a cat that was often caught peeing on the
> caber). The players of this novel game were reputedly very strong from all
> the tossing, so they always were picked to do the local vendange. They
> were an eager lot, and even introduced the notion of "batonnage" - they
> could not resist tossing even in the chai. In their honour, the local
> grapes were named after their favourite game.
>
> By the way, the "petit verdot" was named after the habit the scottish
> ******* had of asking for a "petit verre d'eau" after each score. The
> french drank wine instead, insisting that the water was no good, every
> time they scored they would drink a glass of wine and loudly intone "merde
> l'eau", thus naming that other great grape of the region.
>
>
> Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
>> This might be true as there is an alternative spelling, carbenet,
>> according to some of the dictionaries.
>> Just one thing though - neither CabSauv nor CabFranc are coal black ...
>>
>> I guess I'll just have it down as etymology unknown and waffle a bit.
>>
>> I am preparaing a lecture on Cab Sauv for the tastevins rookies, that's
>> why, in case you are curious.
>>
>> Cheers and thanks for taking an interest
>>
>> Nils
>>
>> "Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
>> ...
>>> The Cabernet Sauvignon is a cross between Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon
>>> Blanc...
>>> Cabernet might be from "Carbonet" - "Coalblack" according to Wein-plus
>>> glossary
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i
>>> melding ...
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
>>>> cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736
>>>> (earlier apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no
>>>> indication of the provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH,
>>>> would indicate somthing wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a
>>>> crossing, most likely form the vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
>>>> Does anybody know?
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Nils
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Nils Gustaf Lindgren ha scritto:
> Hello,
> Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
> cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736 (earlier
> apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no indication of the
> provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH, would indicate somthing
> wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a crossing, most likely form the
> vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
> Does anybody know?

I don't know if it makes sense, but Gabernet is a common surname,
looking at Facebook
:-)
Luk

LOL!!!!
:-) Anders

"Mike Tommasi" > skrev i melding
...
> The real etymology:
>
> Cabernet refers to a game that had developed in Aquitaine a few decades
> before the 1855 classification of the local crus. At the time there was a
> large scottish community, and when the caber ******* met with the local
> football players, they decided to replace the ball with a large stick. The
> ******* had to chuck the big stick (actually a tree trunk) into each
> other's net, hence the name "caber-net" (pron: cay-behr-net). When the
> french ******* scored, it was called a caber-net franc. When the scottish
> ******* scored, it was called a caber-net sauvignon (they were considered
> wild men, and their mascot was a cat that was often caught peeing on the
> caber). The players of this novel game were reputedly very strong from all
> the tossing, so they always were picked to do the local vendange. They
> were an eager lot, and even introduced the notion of "batonnage" - they
> could not resist tossing even in the chai. In their honour, the local
> grapes were named after their favourite game.
>
> By the way, the "petit verdot" was named after the habit the scottish
> ******* had of asking for a "petit verre d'eau" after each score. The
> french drank wine instead, insisting that the water was no good, every
> time they scored they would drink a glass of wine and loudly intone "merde
> l'eau", thus naming that other great grape of the region.
>
>
> Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
>> This might be true as there is an alternative spelling, carbenet,
>> according to some of the dictionaries.
>> Just one thing though - neither CabSauv nor CabFranc are coal black ...
>>
>> I guess I'll just have it down as etymology unknown and waffle a bit.
>>
>> I am preparaing a lecture on Cab Sauv for the tastevins rookies, that's
>> why, in case you are curious.
>>
>> Cheers and thanks for taking an interest
>>
>> Nils
>>
>> "Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
>> ...
>>> The Cabernet Sauvignon is a cross between Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon
>>> Blanc...
>>> Cabernet might be from "Carbonet" - "Coalblack" according to Wein-plus
>>> glossary
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i
>>> melding ...
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Delving into wine history I come upon a conundrum, namely, the name
>>>> cabernet. I find it recorded, for Cabernet Sauvignon, first in 1736
>>>> (earlier apparently it was called petit vidure). However, I find no
>>>> indication of the provenience of the word "cabernet". Sauvignon, OTOH,
>>>> would indicate somthing wild, sauvage - untrue, as the grape is a
>>>> crossing, most likely form the vineyard, but, udnerstandable.
>>>> Does anybody know?
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Nils
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
...
> This might be true as there is an alternative spelling, carbenet,
> according to some of the dictionaries.
> Just one thing though - neither CabSauv nor CabFranc are coal black ...
>
The Wein-plus glossary lists these synonyms for Cabernet Franc:
Acheria, Arrouya, Bidure, Bordo (Italien), Boubet, Bouchy, Bouchet, Breton,
Burdelas Tinto, Cabernet, Cabernet Aunis, Cabernet Carbouet, Cabernet
Franco, Cabernet Frank, Capbreton Rouge, Carmenet, Couahort pro Parte, Gamay
de Ricenay, Gamput, Gros Bouchet, Gros Cabernet, Grosse Vidure, Mencía
(Spanien), Kaberne Frank, Méssanges Rouge, Morenoa, Noir Dur, Petite Vidure,
Petite Vigne Dure, Petit Fer, Petite Vidure, Plant Breton, Plant des Sables,
Rouge, Sable Rouge, Trouchet Noir, Véronais und Veron Bouchy.

You will note that a couple of names include "noir"....
And, might that be for the colour of the wine, not the grape?

Anders

So true. Even Pinot Noir is called "black". And the ancient Greeks
apparently described the sea as "purple", which to me implies a serious
environmental disaster. At least carbonet is an explanation (if not up to
par with the Scots option, hey laddie?).

Cheers

Nils

"Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
...
>
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
> ...
>> This might be true as there is an alternative spelling, carbenet,
>> according to some of the dictionaries.
>> Just one thing though - neither CabSauv nor CabFranc are coal black ...
>>
> The Wein-plus glossary lists these synonyms for Cabernet Franc:
> Acheria, Arrouya, Bidure, Bordo (Italien), Boubet, Bouchy, Bouchet,
> Breton, Burdelas Tinto, Cabernet, Cabernet Aunis, Cabernet Carbouet,
> Cabernet Franco, Cabernet Frank, Capbreton Rouge, Carmenet, Couahort pro
> Parte, Gamay de Ricenay, Gamput, Gros Bouchet, Gros Cabernet, Grosse
> Vidure, Mencía (Spanien), Kaberne Frank, Méssanges Rouge, Morenoa, Noir
> Dur, Petite Vidure, Petite Vigne Dure, Petit Fer, Petite Vidure, Plant
> Breton, Plant des Sables, Rouge, Sable Rouge, Trouchet Noir, Véronais und
> Veron Bouchy.
>
> You will note that a couple of names include "noir"....
> And, might that be for the colour of the wine, not the grape?
>
> Anders
>

Mike Tommasi wrote:
> The real etymology:
>
> Cabernet refers to a game that had developed in Aquitaine a few decades
> before the 1855 classification of the local crus. At the time there was
> a large scottish community, and when the caber ******* met with the
> local football players, they decided to replace the ball with a large
> stick. The ******* had to chuck the big stick (actually a tree trunk)
> into each other's net, hence the name "caber-net" (pron: cay-behr-net).
> When the french ******* scored, it was called a caber-net franc. When
> the scottish ******* scored, it was called a caber-net sauvignon (they
> were considered wild men, and their mascot was a cat that was often
> caught peeing on the caber). The players of this novel game were
> reputedly very strong from all the tossing, so they always were picked
> to do the local vendange. They were an eager lot, and even introduced
> the notion of "batonnage" - they could not resist tossing even in the
> chai. In their honour, the local grapes were named after their favourite
> game.
>
> By the way, the "petit verdot" was named after the habit the scottish
> ******* had of asking for a "petit verre d'eau" after each score. The
> french drank wine instead, insisting that the water was no good, every
> time they scored they would drink a glass of wine and loudly intone
> "merde l'eau", thus naming that other great grape of the region.
>

Brilliant! Only an expert tosser could come up with an ejaculation
such as merde l'eau!

-E

Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> By the way, the "petit verdot" was named after the habit the
> scottish ******* had of asking for a "petit verre d'eau" after
> each score.

Not very probable. A decent scotsman would ask for a glass of
uisge beatha, of course.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:
> Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> Not very probable. A decent scotsman would ask for a glass of
> uisge beatha, of course.

Surely, a flagon or even a cask would be more likely to be the quantity
requested, especially if caber tossing is involved, thirsty work that it is.

Mark Lipton
(flexing his limited Scots ancestry)

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:51:02 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>Michael Pronay wrote:
>> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>
>> Not very probable. A decent scotsman would ask for a glass of
>> uisge beatha, of course.
>
>Surely, a flagon or even a cask would be more likely to be the quantity
>requested, especially if caber tossing is involved, thirsty work that it is.
>
Well, some tug-of-war friends of mine would prefer it out of Ducru
barriques.

Actually the Barolo finished stuff might be even better but I don't
know the barrel name :-)

James (in Scotland)
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.