wrote in message
...
I'd take a sip and ask the hostess if her cousin crushed the grapes with
his feet and then I'd suggest she should tell him to take off his sticky
smelly socks because the wine is only fit to be drank by Canadians.

Who could, perhaps, teach you English grammar!!

Steve Slatcher wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:03:15 +0200, IanH wrote:

But as
you rightly say the majority of French are completely blinded by the
dread words "Apellation Bordeaux Controlée" and think that's a
guarantee of a wonderful wine.

Is that really true? It would surprise me if it were. I think most
French probably have a pretty realistic view of generic Bordeaux. But
many punters outside of France may be more naive.


It is definitely true. Not only do us 3 expats in France confirm it, I've
had the conversation with endless producers and cavistes.

Actually many people expect the French to be wine-savvy, but I don't
think the percentage of knowledgeable people is any higher here than in
most European countries.

With the exception of professionals I (an American) am almost invariably
the most wine conscious of the party, I think I can say without too much
egotism. (I don't include of course the experts on this group, where I
don't
rate myself nearly as highly! ) My French friends once made a big deal
about "an American knows about wine, right" but now take it as a given more
or less. Not that they don't have their own opinions!

To the original question... I would usually say the wine is not to my
taste. The fact that a wine exists commercially is almost proof that
it is a question of taste, and there are very few circumstances where
I proclaim a wine to be BAD - they are usually wines that are faulty
or bordering on being faulty. Home-made wines are another issue.
Mercifuly I don't know anyone who indulges in that hobby ATM.


You're kinder than most here. I align I guess more with John's encepage,
I don't have the heart to say I really don't like it.

But I think your faith in the market is misplaced. Many wines exist only
thanks to European or French subsidies, or to eventually be turned into
alcohol. All things being equal these businesses wouldn't survive. Anyway
I take your point that the wine in question was not "faulty" per se,
just nasty.

I'm not sure how I feel about it personally, but I've noticed the
vintners taking
to the street and attacking the gendarmes again recently. Just some
good old boys getting ready for summer vacation no doubt.

-E

John T wrote:
What say the fellow geeks, or those considered geeks by their friends,
in these situations?
Is honesty really the best policy?

-E


I usually hem, haw, say something "wow, I'm really getting a lot of
vanilla (or herbs, or whatever)" , say things like "just like in
music, there are a lot of styles, no one likes all of them equally,
that doesn't mean they're better or worse." Still, some people get
offended because I don't like their Marquis-Phillips.

My response is " rustic", " individual" and if really awful " what is the
encepage?"

JT



Personally, this home winemaker would be thrilled to have knowledgeable
tasters point out any defects or other quality issues. I ferment high-quality
Sonoma and Sierra foothill grapes exclusively, never kits. I'm continually
working to increase quality; I hope I don't inflict defective wines on
my guests or hosts, but if I do I want to know about it so I can learn and
improve future batches. And the more precise the criticism, the better.

Ernie in Berkeley
To respond, rack off the LEES

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:38:39 +0200, Emery Davis
wrote:

Steve Slatcher wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:03:15 +0200, IanH wrote:

But as
you rightly say the majority of French are completely blinded by the
dread words "Apellation Bordeaux Controlée" and think that's a
guarantee of a wonderful wine.

Is that really true? It would surprise me if it were. I think most
French probably have a pretty realistic view of generic Bordeaux. But
many punters outside of France may be more naive.


It is definitely true. Not only do us 3 expats in France confirm it, I've
had the conversation with endless producers and cavistes.

Actually many people expect the French to be wine-savvy, but I don't
think the percentage of knowledgeable people is any higher here than in
most European countries.

With the exception of professionals I (an American) am almost invariably
the most wine conscious of the party, I think I can say without too much
egotism. (I don't include of course the experts on this group, where I
don't
rate myself nearly as highly! ) My French friends once made a big deal
about "an American knows about wine, right" but now take it as a given more
or less. Not that they don't have their own opinions!

Well, you live in France and I do not. So I will not argue.

But just to clarify... I was not ascribing a high level of wine
connoiseurship to the French. I just imagined that they had an
unromantic view of Bordeaux. That wine was more of a commodity, and
price rather than label was a pretty good indicator of what you get at
the lower end of the market.

To the original question... I would usually say the wine is not to my
taste. The fact that a wine exists commercially is almost proof that
it is a question of taste, and there are very few circumstances where
I proclaim a wine to be BAD - they are usually wines that are faulty
or bordering on being faulty. Home-made wines are another issue.
Mercifuly I don't know anyone who indulges in that hobby ATM.


You're kinder than most here. I align I guess more with John's encepage,
I don't have the heart to say I really don't like it.

But I think your faith in the market is misplaced. Many wines exist only
thanks to European or French subsidies, or to eventually be turned into
alcohol. All things being equal these businesses wouldn't survive. Anyway
I take your point that the wine in question was not "faulty" per se,
just nasty.

It wasn't really a faith in the market that I was expressing. Just
the observation that if someone buys something it must have some
perceived value to the purchaser. Of course, if the wine is distilled
that argument does not apply - but neither is it relevant. But when I
was thinking of wines-not-to-my-taste but which I would hesitate to
call bad, I was actually thinking mainly of the cheap, thin, often
slightly sweet wines that flood our supermarkets from the likes of
Gallo and Blossom Hill.

The two BAD examples I can think of right now were cheap Portuguese
and Spanish wines - some sort of rotten grape or dirty winemaking I
think. I'm not really sure why they were so bad. I have had plenty
of cheap wines from those countries that have been perfectly
acceptable.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Another way of getting around the problem is to tell you hostess that the
wine is far too young to be enjoyed now and that it would benefit from a
couple of decades in the cellar. Imagine that you will be invited again: if
the herbacious, overextracted notes have not vanished in favour of a
memorable, smooth-as-silk mouthfeel (bet it won't!), well... you could still
blame it on the storage conditions...

Yves


"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
People who know I'm a wine geek invariably ask my opinion of their
"special wine."
I don't want to offend them by saying I don't like it (as is often, sadly,
the case) and
I end up hemming and hawing, trying to think of something positive to say.

This happened again this weekend, I was served some awful Bordeaux that
was made
by a cousin of the Hostess. She was really proud, but I thought it was
herbaceous but
at the same time over concentrated, with an addition of oak juice and
elmers glue. I
took a couple of sips politely but drank water with the rest of the meal.
(Got a headache
anyway, but maybe not down to the wine, although it had "headache" writ
large on the
label.)

She pressed me for an opinion so I waxed on about how wonderful it must be
to drink
juice produced by one's very own family. Blech.

What say the fellow geeks, or those considered geeks by their friends, in
these situations?
Is honesty really the best policy?

-E

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:11:16 +0200, Mike Tommasi
wrote:

On average, older people in France tend to drink a very narrow
range of wines, mainly Bordeaux,

In Paris?

Loire and Alsace wines are almost never
ordered, on average people probably don't even know the Loire makes
wine, or that Alsace is now part of France... :-) and so these wines
are hard to find.

Apart from in the Loire, and Alsace, where it's more difficult finding
anything else. I don't think you'll find many old people drinking
Bordeaux in Alsace. Red wine is (of course) means Alsace PN.

On average restaurants have appallingly standardized
wine lists, dictated by the local drinks broker usually.

Quite. It's the same in the shops too. The choice is mainly of local
wines.

But I think you put too negative a spin on the situation. Restaurants
and shops know and support their local producers. The good ones seek
out the good local producers. Is that better of worse than having a
broad national/international list? I'm not sure, but it's certainly a
different approach.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:22:34 +0200, Mike Tommasi
wrote:

Steve Slatcher wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:11:16 +0200, Mike Tommasi
wrote:

On average, older people in France tend to drink a very narrow
range of wines, mainly Bordeaux,

In Paris?

Note: key qualifier is "on average". In Paris too, yes.

In Paris I could easily believe (sorry, my comment was a little cyptic
in my last post, but that is what I meant).

But I find it difficult to believe that old people in any other wine
growing area drink Bordeaux. Their range of experience might be
narrow, but it will be local to where they live.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Steve Slatcher wrote:
[]
But just to clarify... I was not ascribing a high level of wine
connoiseurship to the French. I just imagined that they had an
unromantic view of Bordeaux. That wine was more of a commodity, and
price rather than label was a pretty good indicator of what you get at
the lower end of the market.

[]

No one is more romantic about their country than the French. There are
endless programs (including the most watched 1pm news program) that
are nothing more than travelogues and propaganda for how great the
country is. (And much of it is pretty fine, too. These programs can be
pretty charming. Anyone seen the guy who toddles around in the London Cab,
exclaiming at the wonders of local produce?)

Anyway the French consider Bordeaux wine to be national heritage and an
example of Gallic Superiority. Wines from the regions, with the
exception of
Burgundy and that to a lesser extent, don't enjoy the same status as
"patrimoine."

-E

Yves wrote:
Another way of getting around the problem is to tell you hostess that the
wine is far too young to be enjoyed now and that it would benefit from a
couple of decades in the cellar. Imagine that you will be invited again: if
the herbacious, overextracted notes have not vanished in favour of a
memorable, smooth-as-silk mouthfeel (bet it won't!), well... you could still
blame it on the storage conditions...

Ah, this is excellent and just what is called for. I don't have much tact
but I'll be delighted to retain yours.


-E

Mike Tommasi wrote:

Over here in Bandol ... they do know P******x
^^^^^^^^

Mike, please, what are you talking about?

Don't forget that a name overfamiliar to you might be completely
unknown to others.

M.

P.S. Who invented this extremely silly system of using stars
instead of letters? None of the explanations I ever read
convinced me. Copyright infringement definitely is *not*
an issue.

M.

Emery Davis wrote:

Anyway the French consider Bordeaux wine to be national heritage
and an example of Gallic Superiority.

Ack.

Wines from the regions, with the exception of Burgundy and that
to a lesser extent, don't enjoy the same status as "patrimoine."

I would add Champagne to this short list. But then many French do
not consider Champagne as a wine.

M.

Mike Tommasi wrote:
Michael Pronay wrote:
][
M.
P.S. Who invented this extremely silly system of using stars instead
of letters? None of the explanations I ever read convinced me.
Copyright infringement definitely is *not* an issue.

Indeed silly.


I wonder if the custom originates in American syndicated comics, "The
Funnies."

Of course you cannot print a curse word (know amusingly in American as
"bad words"
but in French as "big words") in an American newspaper; so much for the
first amendment!
So the comics artists got around it by using &^%@# * in place of "bad
words," which
was OK perhaps because it would not corrupt the innocent.

Back on topic, maybe I should have said "This will take the paint of the
%&$^*@* windows!"

-E

Mike Tommasi wrote:

Over here in Bandol ... they do know P******x
^^^^^^^^

Mike, please, what are you talking about?

Don't forget that a name overfamiliar to you might be
completely unknown to others.

Of course, what I meant is that everyone tends to know one or
two names that might have been the best 20-40 years ago, and
these reputations last a long time, despite contemporary
evidence showing that all that is left is the name...

So please, once again, what *is* the name, what does "P******x"
stand for?

M.

Mike Tommasi wrote:

So please ... what does "P******x" stand for?

Oh, I mentioned it without asterisks in the last post,
(Ch.) Pradeaux.

Thanks a lot!

M.

On Jun 30, 5:29*am, Emery Davis wrote:
People who know I'm a wine geek invariably ask my opinion of their
"special wine."
I don't want to offend them by saying I don't like it (as is often,
sadly, the case) and
I end up hemming and hawing, trying to think of something positive to say.

This happened again this weekend, I was served some awful Bordeaux that
was made
by a cousin of the Hostess. *She was really proud, but I thought it was
herbaceous but
at the same time over concentrated, with an addition of oak juice and
elmers glue. *I
took a couple of sips politely but drank water with the rest of the
meal. *(Got a headache
anyway, but maybe not down to the wine, although it had "headache" writ
large on the
label.)

She pressed me for an opinion so I waxed on about how wonderful it must
be to drink
juice produced by one's very own family. *Blech.

What say the fellow geeks, or those considered geeks by their friends,
in these situations?
Is honesty really the best policy?

-E

I always go back to:

"An unassuming, yet approachable wine. Straightforward and without
mystery, easily meeting the expectations I held for it. Pleasant, yet
flaccid. I wouldn't hold it much longer, it is probably at its peak."

The comment is honest and sufficiently wine-geeky that they think I
said something nice.

Ed Rasimus