On Mar 26, 12:08�pm, Mark Lipton wrote:
st.helier wrote:
Nope - sorry - again, no choice - Chardonnay for white; Pinot noir for
ed �- �thus (unlike Bordeaux) no blending of varieties.

err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? �;-)

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: �http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

and Bourgogne Grande Ordinaire!
But PTG and BGO together make up something like 2% of production, and
way less than 1% of exports.
Personally, even when I was brand new to wine, I didn't find European
labeling confusing. And no one has ever suggested that US wines had to
switch to European styled geographic labeling, to my knowledge.

miles wrote:

No, and where in my statement do you get that mistaken impression?

You feel France etc. should but the USA shouldn't? Thats my point. Why
is it ok in Europe but you don't feel it appropriate elsewhere?

No, I feel that any given region is free to label its wine as it
chooses. Many regions of Europe label their wine by region; most areas
of the New World label by varietal designation. I have no interest in
changing anyone's labeling practices.


point is that certain place names are protected as equivalent to
trademarks.

With regards to Wine where is this done in the USA without it being
trademarked by a particular wine producer? If it isn't, why not?

Did you not read about the lawsuit brought by the Napa wine producers
association against Fred Franzia's Bronco Wine Co. for the
misappropriation of the name "Napa"? Try making a wine in Idaho and
labeling it as your "Sonoma Cuvée" and see what happens when you try to
sell it...



Do you think that crabs from Florida should be able to be
sold as Dungeness crabs?

Dungeness refers to a species and not a region.

Never heard of Dungeness, WA? ;-)

The grapes used in
Burgundy are not unique to the region nor a particular producer. Label
the appellation correctly just as is done in the USA.

They _do_ label the appellation correctly, Miles. A typical bottle of
Burgundy will say "Chambolle-Musigny" (village appellation) "Les
Amoureuses" (vineyard appellation) and "Grand Vin de Bourgogne"
(regional appellation). Many Napa Cabs, BTW, fail to mention Napa on
their labels.


Should farmed salmon from Canada be sold as
Copper River? Should California be able to sell its produce as Florida
oranges?

Nope and a wine made from grapes grown in New York can't label them as
being from elsewhere.

I agree. So why should someone from California be able to label their
wine as Burgundy? That sounds like a double standard to me.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

st.helier wrote:

Nope - sorry - again, no choice - Chardonnay for white; Pinot noir for
ed - thus (unlike Bordeaux) no blending of varieties.

err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? ;-)

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT), DaleW
wrote:

and Bourgogne Grande Ordinaire!
But PTG and BGO together make up something like 2% of production, and
way less than 1% of exports.

I was surprised that it was that low, but you are right - if you
include all Burgundy's production, including Beaujolais (which is a
huge chunk of the total) and white wines. I was also surprised to see
how little BGO is produced compared to PTG.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Mark Lipton wrote:

err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? ;-)

And "Mike Tommasi" wrote .........

err... Sauvignon de St Bris?
err... Bourgogne Aligoté?
err... Beaujolais?


His Lordship readily concedes - outside of Beaujolais, small of amounts of
Gamay (red) and in certain defined areas, Aligot (white) are still grown,
vinified, bottled and sold - BUT ..........

All the above will be labelled according to the individual labelling
requirements: i.e. "Bourgogne Passetoutgrains" or "Appellation Bourgogne
Aligoté Controlée".

My contention is that none of the abovementioned would be *normally* termed
Burgundy - either red or white!

Either or both of you may feel free to argue otherwise ;-)

However, I am surprised that neither of you picked up on my error -
Burgundy covers closer to 25,000 ha (60,000 acres) !

--

st.helier

On Mar 27, 9:44�am, Mike Tommasi wrote:
st.helier wrote:
Mark Lipton wrote:

err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? �;-)

And "Mike Tommasi" wrote .........
err... Sauvignon de St Bris?
err... Bourgogne Aligot�?
err... Beaujolais?

His Lordship readily concedes - outside of Beaujolais, small of amounts of
Gamay (red) and in certain defined areas, Aligot (white) are still grown,
vinified, bottled and sold �- �BUT ..........

All the above will be labelled according to the individual labelling
requirements: i.e. "Bourgogne Passetoutgrains" or "Appellation Bourgogne
Aligot� Control�e".

My contention is that none of the abovementioned would be *normally* termed
Burgundy - either red or white!

Either or both of you may feel free to argue otherwise ;-)

However, I am surprised that neither of you picked up on my error �-
Burgundy covers closer to 25,000 ha (60,000 acres) !

Yes Beaujolais tends to be seen as a separate wine growing area, but
surely M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is... Burgundy? And the Sauvignon
de St Bris is, no doubt about it, Bourgogne, adminstratively and in wine
terms...

--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually we're getting close to defining just how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin.
Oop......almost forgot ;-)

Bi!! wrote on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT):

On Mar 27, 9:44�am, Mike Tommasi wrote:
?? st.helier wrote:
?? Mark Lipton wrote:
??
?? err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? �;-)
??
?? And "Mike Tommasi" wrote .........
?? err... Sauvignon de St Bris?
?? err... Bourgogne Aligot�?
?? err... Beaujolais?
??
?? His Lordship readily concedes - outside of Beaujolais,
?? small of amounts of Gamay (red) and in certain defined
?? areas, Aligot (white) are still grown, vinified, bottled
?? and sold �- �BUT ..........
??
?? All the above will be labelled according to the
?? individual labelling requirements: i.e. "Bourgogne
?? Passetoutgrains" or "Appellation Bourgogne Aligot�
?? Control�e".
??
?? My contention is that none of the abovementioned would be
?? *normally* termed Burgundy - either red or white!
??
?? Either or both of you may feel free to argue otherwise
?? ;-)
??
?? However, I am surprised that neither of you picked up on
?? my error �- Burgundy covers closer to 25,000 ha (60,000
?? acres) !
??
?? Yes Beaujolais tends to be seen as a separate wine growing
?? area, but surely M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is...
?? Burgundy? And the Sauvignon de St Bris is, no doubt about
?? it, Bourgogne, adminstratively and in wine terms...
??
?? --
?? Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
?? email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail- Hide quoted
text -

B Actually we're getting close to defining just how many
angels
B can dance on the head of a pin.
B Oop......almost forgot ;-)

I thought the final answer there was that angels were
dimensionless, so as many as you want! They aren't dimensionless
but Champagne districts behave like angels :-)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Mar 27, 11:12Â*am, "James Silverton"
wrote:
Â*Bi!! Â*wrote Â*on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT):

On Mar 27, 9:44�am, Mike Tommasi wrote:Â*?? st.helier wrote:

Â*?? Mark Lipton wrote:
Â*??
Â*?? err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? �;-)
Â*??
Â*?? And "Mike Tommasi" wrote .........
Â*?? err... Sauvignon de St Bris?
Â*?? err... Bourgogne Aligot�?
Â*?? err... Beaujolais?
Â*??
Â*?? His Lordship readily concedes - outside of Beaujolais,
Â*?? small of amounts of Gamay (red) and in certain defined
Â*?? areas, Aligot (white) are still grown, vinified, bottled
Â*?? and sold �- �BUT ..........
Â*??
Â*?? All the above will be labelled according to the
Â*?? individual labelling requirements: i.e. "Bourgogne
Â*?? Passetoutgrains" or "Appellation Bourgogne Aligot�
Â*?? Control�e".
Â*??
Â*?? My contention is that none of the abovementioned would be
Â*?? *normally* termed Burgundy - either red or white!
Â*??
Â*?? Either or both of you may feel free to argue otherwise
Â*?? ;-)
Â*??
Â*?? However, I am surprised that neither of you picked up on
Â*?? my error �- Burgundy covers closer to 25,000 ha (60,000
Â*?? acres) !
Â*??
Â*?? Yes Beaujolais tends to be seen as a separate wine growing
Â*?? area, but surely M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is...
Â*?? Burgundy? And the Sauvignon de St Bris is, no doubt about
Â*?? it, Bourgogne, adminstratively and in wine terms...
Â*??
Â*?? --
Â*?? Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
Â*?? email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail-Hide quoted
text -

Â*B Actually we're getting close to defining just how many
angels
Â*B can dance on the head of a pin.
Â*B Oop......almost forgot ;-)

I thought the final answer there was that angels were
dimensionless, so as many as you want! They aren't dimensionless
but Champagne districts behave like angels :-)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

I'm headed to Champagne and Burgundy on May 1 for a few weeks so it
will be interesting to get their take on the expansion. My guess is
that I'll get the French shrug!

"Mike Tommasi" wrote ......

M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is... Burgundy? And the
Sauvignon de St Bris is, no doubt about it, Bourgogne,
administratively and in wine terms...


to which "Bi!!" wrote ...............

Actually we're getting close to defining just how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin.


Bill, with an ounce of planning and some stability in the world's currency
markets (lest I should convert all my holdings into Lilangeni!), it is my
intention to again arrive in the general neighbourhood of Mr. Tommasi - some
time around mid-September.

Whereupon, I shall demand that he and Cathy should invite me and my tribe to
dinner at Chez Tommasi, where he can show me a bottle or two of those
well-known and plentiful examples of *Burgundy* he quotes (Aligoté and
Sauvignon de St Bris) matched perfectly with some local cuisine.

Methinks he will need to start his search very soon - lest he be found
wanting !!!!!!!!!

Cheers

st.h

On Mar 27, 7:02�pm, "st.helier" wrote:
"Mike Tommasi" wrote ......



M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is... Burgundy? And the
Sauvignon de St Bris is, no doubt about it, Bourgogne,
administratively and in wine terms...

�to which "Bi!!" wrote ...............

Actually we're getting close to defining just how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Bill, with an ounce of planning and some stability in the world's currency
markets (lest I should convert all my holdings into Lilangeni!), it is my
intention to again arrive in the general neighbourhood of Mr. Tommasi - some
time around mid-September.

Whereupon, I shall demand that he and Cathy should invite me and my tribe to
dinner at Chez Tommasi, where he can show me a bottle or two of those
well-known and plentiful examples of *Burgundy* he quotes (Aligot� and
Sauvignon de St Bris) matched perfectly with some local cuisine.

Methinks he will need to start his search very soon - lest he be found
wanting !!!!!!!!!

Cheers

st.h

To be fair M'Lawd I've had many a Kir in Burgundy made with Aligote
and Brocard distributes a pretty fair Sauvignon de St Bris here in
America. I do not think of either as being "Burgundy" however.

In message
"st.helier" wrote:

"Mike Tommasi" wrote ......

M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is... Burgundy? And the
Sauvignon de St Bris is, no doubt about it, Bourgogne,
administratively and in wine terms...


to which "Bi!!" wrote ...............

Actually we're getting close to defining just how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin.


Bill, with an ounce of planning and some stability in the world's currency
markets (lest I should convert all my holdings into Lilangeni!), it is my
intention to again arrive in the general neighbourhood of Mr. Tommasi - some
time around mid-September.

Whereupon, I shall demand that he and Cathy should invite me and my tribe to
dinner at Chez Tommasi, where he can show me a bottle or two of those
well-known and plentiful examples of *Burgundy* he quotes (Aligoté and
Sauvignon de St Bris) matched perfectly with some local cuisine.

Methinks he will need to start his search very soon - lest he be found
wanting !!!!!!!!!

Cheers

st.h


Speaking as a fan of St. Bris and the son-in-law of an inhabitant of
Six-Fours, almost next door to Bandol, I think it is your request that
M. Tomassi should match the wine to local cuisine which may cause the
problem rather than finding the wine — maybe soupe de poisson minus
the rouille? As for the Aligoté I have yet to be persuade that Canon
Kir did not find the best use for it.


Tim Hartley

In message
Mike Tommasi wrote:

st.helier wrote:
it is my
intention to again arrive in the general neighbourhood of Mr. Tommasi - some
time around mid-September.

Good news !

Whereupon, I shall demand that he and Cathy should invite me and my tribe to
dinner at Chez Tommasi, where he can show me a bottle or two of those
well-known and plentiful examples of *Burgundy* he quotes (Aligoté and
Sauvignon de St Bris) matched perfectly with some local cuisine.

Methinks he will need to start his search very soon - lest he be found
wanting !!!!!!!!!

Er, how about if I serve some REAL Burgundy. Who said B. Aligoté and
Sauvignon de St Bris is Burgundy? :-)


They are entitled to the Appellation — does that make them real or are
we in Velveteen Rabbit territory where feeling loved was necessary
before the poor toy rabbit became real?


Tim Hartley

Steve Slatcher wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:54:55 -0700, Miles wrote:

Burgundy wines are a blend of 3 or 4 grapes.

The vast majoritiy of Burgundies are made from a single variety. Not
that it affects your arguments otherwise I suppose.

I've never cared for Bufundies but was under the impression most were
blends. At least whats on the common stock shelves here which could be
just the lower end mass produced stuff.

Steve Slatcher wrote:

French AOCs are not just defined by the place. It is also the grape
varieties used, vineyard practice, yields and vinification.

Yep and I don't agree with that practice. I prefer the way its done in
the USA.

Putting aside the issue of greatness, I'd say that in general Burgundy
has a taste profile that is distinct from PN wines made elsewhere.

That could often be said of many appellations. Thats why in the USA the
appellation is labeled to give the consumer the information they need to
make their choices.

Richard Neidich wrote:

While I understand this ruling from WTO I do not personally apply it the
same way to wine. But the majority do in the world. And unless there are
treaties and respect given this debate cannot really change minds.

I think most here are missing my point. The way wines are labeled in
the USA works very well to inform the consumer. I feel the way it's
done in France etc. is a limitation to the market. There may very well
be excellent 'Burgundy' style wines made outside the Burgundy region but
marketing conventions make it difficult to gain in the publics eye.
That type of limitation doesn't exist in the USA and I prefer it that way.