Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla Walla. I love that
appelation...


wrote in message
...
Hi again Miles

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 15:05:59 -0700, Miles wrote:

Munged wrote:
Not really. You are assuming that almost the only important factor in
the flavour of a wine is the grape variety from which it is made.

Not true. Particular vineyard, winery, winemaker, etc. are all
important. The vineyard and varietal alone do not make a wine.
Besides, in the USA both are labeled as they should be.

Well, the only real difference between the way wines are labelled in
France is that in the areas which have been making world renowned
wines for hundreds of years, the varieties aren't traditionally
mentioned. In Burgundy which was the case you mentioned, given that
almost anyone knows that Burgundy equates to "Pinot Noir" when red and
"Chardonnay" when white, A wine that calles itself "Chambolle-Musigny"
from Domaine Arnaud is going to be a village wine (since no vineyard
is mentioned) from a particular grower, and the year will be
mentioned. What's the problem?


Could be true. I have no desire for US Merlots.

Apart from some of the better ones from Walla walla, neither do I. But
yet Merlots from Pomerol (and the other places I mentioned) can be
world class wines. Which is my point that the area of production - the
terroir - and what the grower makes of it is AS important - if not
more so - than the variety. Yet the American naming system puts most
of the emphasis on the variety. My view is that this is more limited
than the European model where the variety is implicit in the area, and
the _important_ information - like who made it and where and when are
all on the label,


While I've no objection to mantioning the grapes that have gone to
make up a wine, the US naming procedure leads to as great a likelyhood
of error and customer disappointment as the French, Italian, Spanish
and German model does. The truth is that ignorant buyers will very
possibly be disappointed no matter what system of naming you have.

To find a good wine one does need to be somewhat educated on the matter.
Sometimes I feel the EU's method goes the way of thinking the consumer
is too stupid to find the wine they like on their own.

Not at all. Quite the reverse in fact. It assumes that a drinker knows
that such and such a grape variety comes from a region and are
prepared to make a small effort to choose the region they like and the
grower they can trust.

I've never tasted one. I've taste Pinot Noir wines from most leading
PN growing areas in the world and none of them taste anything like a
half way decent Burgundy.

Thats personal preference.

No it's not. I said "like" not "better than". I'm seeking to contest
your point that using the label "burgundy" as if it were valid for
any Pinot Noir no matter where from, has no basis in reality. If there
was much chance that one could taste an Oregon Pinot Noir and think it
was a Burgundy, then you might have a case. But I don't believe one
can. I've had lovely wines in the Willamette, and in California from
PN, but I can't think of one that could be confused with a Burgundy.

I really haven't cared at all for the Burgundies
I've tried. Just a different style overall than what I prefer.

That's entirely legitimate, but there's a long way between saying "I
don't like Burgundy" and " There may very well be excellent 'Burgundy'
style wines made outside the Burgundy region but marketing conventions
make it difficult to gain in the publics eye. "

There aren't any that I've tasted. There are plenty of PNs, but they
aren't either Burgundy or "Burgundy Style" You were plain wrong about
France and Zinfandel, and I'm afraid you're plain wrong about the
limitations of French wine naming.

I've often castigated French wine makers in Burgundy betraying their
precious inheritance by making muck there. But at least french naming
laws mean that with their name on the label, you can soon enough know
the guilty parties and never buy their wine again.

I maybe wrong but it seems that most in here prefer French and other
European wines to California, Oregon and Washington wines.

Maybe, I wouldn't know. My exposure to wines from the USA is extremely
limited, which is why I took a long (2 month) trip down the Western
sde of the USA to try to get to know them better. I found some good
wines, some bad wines and some awful wines. Just as one would do if
visitiing Bordeaux, Burgundy or the Languedoc. Or Marlborough, Hawkes
Bay, and Martinborough.

I'm the

If you prefer EU wines then by all means buy them but please do not
tell me they are better.

I've not. I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about the passing
off of one wine as another, when they aren't alike and about naming
conventions.

ATB
Fatty

I agree with most of what you have said here. Like Politics, wine
law/labeling is local.

However, I do think in support of Miles it takes a lot more education for
people not understanding labels to understand the labels from France.

I remember years back buying the book Windows to the World(World Trade
Center) to learn about some french labels, then Parkers Bordeau Book,
followed by his Rhone book etc.

It is harder to understand and still today I occasionally get confused by
some.

I do think the USA labels are less confusing for this reason.

If all Napa Wines are simply called Red Napa and not a mention of grape
varietal we would all be confused. That is because they grow so many
varieties we have not idea if it was a cab, merlot, sangio, pinot, barbera
etc.

When its red and its Burgundy it is Pinot unless Beaujolais.... If white
Chard unless states as Aligote'.

So, you do have to understand the cultural differences.

That said, when I go to France I spend 2-4 weeks getting spruced up on their
language. Why, I want to enjoy their culture.

When I buy their wine here, I like to remember their culture. But I do
think for many its difficult.

I again say its cultural and local. And since we live in a free society
some can change their labels for export...but I am sure the novice is not
buying Chateau Margaux or DRC so it does not matter if the variety is
included.
"Timothy Hartley" wrote in message
...
In message
Miles wrote:

wrote:

was much chance that one could taste an Oregon Pinot Noir and think it
was a Burgundy, then you might have a case. But I don't believe one
can. I've had lovely wines in the Willamette, and in California from
PN, but I can't think of one that could be confused with a Burgundy.

Thats true but you do not see PN's called Willamettes and yet they
generally have a style of their own. Thats my point.

So what? Would it not in fact be helpful to those consumers who had
tasted such wines and liked the distinctive style to be able easily to
recognise it again? That is very easy with French labelling surely -
and implicitly on your own admission. What is more because the French
AOC system forbids the use of any but an approved list of grape
varieties there is little danger of a consumer picking up a grower's
experiment with another wholly different variety.

But it goes far further than that in any case. As a generalisation
French vineyards are very small by comparison with new world ones.
That means that, to the reasonably experienced palate, the
individual's interpretation of the needs of his vineyard, and of his
aspirations for it, as well as how well he has achieved them, can and
do vary enormously from those of his neighbours BUT they vary WITHIN a
particular style or Appellation and not only should remain true to it
but normally do so. If bottles were simply labelled with, for
example, the grape variety without reference to the Appellation the
consumer would not know the style. Chardonnay grown in the Languedoc
is entirely different from Chablis; Corton Charlemagne is not the same
as a Chardonnay from Uchizy. I have yet to have a Merlot/Cabernet
Franc blend from elsewhere which could possibly be mistaken for good,
or indeed any, Saint-Emilion or Pomerol. Eqaully within those each
of those areas there are differnces of style and approach which all
make for thefascination and enjoyment of wine.

The consumer new to wine will, without any real effort, soon learn
which grape varieties he likes and move from there to the Appellation
or Appellations the style of which he prefers. He will then become
more selective with experience and if he is really interested he will
move easily to a higher level of knowledge and begin to recognise
within the Appellations the individual growers whose particular
interpretation of the style he like best. If he is faced with a
number of wines from other areas which have a wholly different style
but still describe themselves as "Burgundy" the less knowledgeable
consumer will be confused and disappointed.
Who gains by that except the dishonest grower not able to make a
reputation for his own product who wishes to trade both on other
people's reputations and consumer ignorance or gullibility? Why
should a new world producer, even making only modest wine, not have
the pride in his "terroir. and his region to boast of it on the label?
Why steal somebody else's thunder if your own is loud enough?

I simply do not understand what the problem is - each country has
developed a system which, broadly speaking, suits it. No
international system is likely to be better or more helpful and
revision do not necessarily improve anythign - look at the new EU
rules or the German revision of its wine laws. I defy anybpdy to say
that either is pr wil bebetter than what went before.



Tim Hartley

On Mar 31, 11:18 am, Timothy Hartley
wrote:
In message
Miles wrote:

wrote:
was much chance that one could taste an Oregon Pinot Noir and think it
was a Burgundy, then you might have a case. But I don't believe one
can. I've had lovely wines in the Willamette, and in California from
PN, but I can't think of one that could be confused with a Burgundy.
Thats true but you do not see PN's called Willamettes and yet they
generally have a style of their own. Thats my point.

So what? Would it not in fact be helpful to those consumers who had
tasted such wines and liked the distinctive style to be able easily to
recognise it again? That is very easy with French labelling surely --
and implicitly on your own admission. What is more because the French
AOC system forbids the use of any but an approved list of grape
varieties there is little danger of a consumer picking up a grower's
experiment with another wholly different variety.

But it goes far further than that in any case. As a generalisation
French vineyards are very small by comparison with new world ones.
That means that, to the reasonably experienced palate, the
individual's interpretation of the needs of his vineyard, and of his
aspirations for it, as well as how well he has achieved them, can and
do vary enormously from those of his neighbours BUT they vary WITHIN a
particular style or Appellation and not only should remain true to it
but normally do so. If bottles were simply labelled with, for
example, the grape variety without reference to the Appellation the
consumer would not know the style. Chardonnay grown in the Languedoc
is entirely different from Chablis; Corton Charlemagne is not the same
as a Chardonnay from Uchizy. I have yet to have a Merlot/Cabernet
Franc blend from elsewhere which could possibly be mistaken for good,
or indeed any, Saint-Emilion or Pomerol. Eqaully within those each
of those areas there are differnces of style and approach which all
make for thefascination and enjoyment of wine.

The consumer new to wine will, without any real effort, soon learn
which grape varieties he likes and move from there to the Appellation
or Appellations the style of which he prefers. He will then become
more selective with experience and if he is really interested he will
move easily to a higher level of knowledge and begin to recognise
within the Appellations the individual growers whose particular
interpretation of the style he like best. If he is faced with a
number of wines from other areas which have a wholly different style
but still describe themselves as "Burgundy" the less knowledgeable
consumer will be confused and disappointed.
Who gains by that except the dishonest grower not able to make a
reputation for his own product who wishes to trade both on other
people's reputations and consumer ignorance or gullibility? Why
should a new world producer, even making only modest wine, not have
the pride in his "terroir* and his region to boast of it on the label?
Why steal somebody else's thunder if your own is loud enough?

I simply do not understand what the problem is -- each country has
developed a system which, broadly speaking, suits it. No
international system is likely to be better or more helpful and
revision do not necessarily improve anythign -- look at the new EU
rules or the German revision of its wine laws. I defy anybpdy to say
that either is pr wil bebetter than what went before.

Tim Hartley

Well put Tim. One of the problems that we face in the US is that as
marketers we tend to dumb everything down to it's lowest common
denominator since most consumers today do not want to spend the time
to get educated about what they are buying. So a wine from Napa
labeled "Merlot" would more than likely be sold on the basis of price
point rather than quality or QPR. With so much excess juice in the
market today there seem to be more and more wines made with purchased
juice or fruit with non discript names and no actual coorelation to
anything except a catchy package or label and at different price
points. The US model for labeling by varietal is basically
meaningless.

"Bi!!" wrote in message
...
On Mar 31, 11:18 am, Timothy Hartley
wrote:
In message
Miles wrote:


.. The US model for labeling by varietal is basically
meaningless.

Bill, I totally disagree. Its not like we say just this is Generic
Cabernet.

We do have it from Valley to vineyard designates. If fact you are now
starting to make Miles case.

Ours is not meaningless in any manner. If anything its more complete.

Richard wrote on Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:29:34 -0400:

RN wrote in message
RN ...

RN Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla
RN Walla. I love that appelation...

..It must be one of the few places with a Federal Prison (the
first, I seem to remember) and also wineries!


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Mar 31, 3:07�pm, "Richard Neidich" wrote:
"Bi!!" wrote in message

...

On Mar 31, 11:18 am, Timothy Hartley
wrote:
In message
� � � � � Miles wrote:

. The US model for labeling by varietal is basically

meaningless.

Bill, I totally disagree. �Its not like we say just this is Generic
Cabernet.

We do have it from Valley to vineyard designates. �If fact you are now
starting to make Miles case.

Ours is not meaningless in any manner. �If anything its more complete.

With all of the "generic" wines that we make today we might as well.
I would trust that many, if not most, folks couldn't tell the
difference between Rutherford Cab and Oakville Cab unless they already
know who the maker is and where he/she sources his/her fruit or juice
from. The Valley and vineyard designates are meaningless if the wines
all taste the same. The reality is that we do say generically that a
wine is Cabernet, Merlot, etc. Anything beyond that is a bonus.
Would you like to explain the word "Meritage" to a European versus the
designation "Red Table Wine"? But I think you're missing my point
which is that most of our labeling practices are really about
marketing and have little do do with information about the contents.
The next time you're in your local wineshop just cruise the aisles and
try to determine where a domestic wine is from just by looking at the
front label. I think you'll be surprised how many wines you must pick-
up and scrutinize to find out who made it, what's really in it, and
where the juice is really from.

I used to be able to taste and pick out the Rutherford wines years back.
Today, I will agree most are not really much different than the Stags leap
district wines.

Not sure of the reasons. But our labeling is more complete and we do on
back of most Meritage state the blend.

Now in my case I have studied and I adore most top tier Bordeaux and Burg
wines. Just getting real familiar with Rhones in past 2-3 years. My
cellars are now about 70% French at home and growing with the 2005 White
Burgs. I agree and to my tastes French wines accompany meals more to my
liking. I find them more complex, finessing and mostly more agreeable with
foods. Also, more distinguishable by location and designation.


But our labels are more complete and I have had to explain to people that
the blend in a Haut Medoc has the same grape varietals than a Pomeral /St
Emillion wine...but one side is Cab Dominant the other is Merlot dominant.
They after having a great Merlot Based such as Pavie, they stop saying, I
don't drink merlot.


"Bi!!" wrote in message
...
On Mar 31, 3:07?pm, "Richard Neidich" wrote:
"Bi!!" wrote in message

...

On Mar 31, 11:18 am, Timothy Hartley
wrote:
In message
? ? ? ? ? Miles wrote:

. The US model for labeling by varietal is basically

meaningless.

Bill, I totally disagree. ?Its not like we say just this is Generic
Cabernet.

We do have it from Valley to vineyard designates. ?If fact you are now
starting to make Miles case.

Ours is not meaningless in any manner. ?If anything its more complete.

With all of the "generic" wines that we make today we might as well.
I would trust that many, if not most, folks couldn't tell the
difference between Rutherford Cab and Oakville Cab unless they already
know who the maker is and where he/she sources his/her fruit or juice
from. The Valley and vineyard designates are meaningless if the wines
all taste the same. The reality is that we do say generically that a
wine is Cabernet, Merlot, etc. Anything beyond that is a bonus.
Would you like to explain the word "Meritage" to a European versus the
designation "Red Table Wine"? But I think you're missing my point
which is that most of our labeling practices are really about
marketing and have little do do with information about the contents.
The next time you're in your local wineshop just cruise the aisles and
try to determine where a domestic wine is from just by looking at the
front label. I think you'll be surprised how many wines you must pick-
up and scrutinize to find out who made it, what's really in it, and
where the juice is really from.

I have been 2x to Walla Walla and never seen the prison, thankfully. In
fact the last two summers I have been there for 1 week each time.

Wineries outstanding. In my opinion some are far better than the best of
Napa at 50-60% of cost. So I think better PQR.

I don't yet know how they age but I imagine better than many a Napa Super
Premium.

Leonottti, Abeja, Renninger, Woodward Canyon...just to name a few vs. Phelps
Insignia etc.

The only Napa Winery I think is at that level is William Cole and that might
be the best red wine I have had...its Chateau Margaux 1995 or 2000 and 75%
off.
"James Silverton" wrote in message
news:BOaIj.9783$p97.3497@trnddc03...
Richard wrote on Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:29:34 -0400:

RN wrote in message
RN ...

RN Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla
RN Walla. I love that appelation...

.It must be one of the few places with a Federal Prison (the first, I seem
to remember) and also wineries!


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Hi Richard,

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:29:34 -0400, "Richard Neidich"
wrote:

Could be true. I have no desire for US Merlots.

Apart from some of the better ones from Walla walla, neither do I.

Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla Walla. I love that
appelation...

Leonetti impressed me very much, when I had it at a restaurant in
Seattle.

Woodward Canyon as well.

I also liked the l'Ecole 41 Estate 7 Hills as well. Oh, and although
it wasn't in the same class as the others I was taken with one from
Tamarack Vineyards in Firehouse Road.

We only spent about two/three days there, so didn't get to taste as
many as we'd have liked to. In fact, I think that overall I was
slightly more impressed with Syrah from the area than the Merlots,
though obviously Walla Walla is making it's reputation on the latter
wines, because they're so much more unusual.

And talking of syrah...

I liked K vintner's wines, but we didn't get to taste any of their
Merlots

I also liked all the Cayuse wines we tasted very much indeed, but
again - like K vintners didn't taste a Merlot.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

I met the owner of K Vintners at a restaurant in Walla Walla(Saffrons was
the name and the owner/chef was Todd English's right hand chef when he
opened Vegas and Seattle..

Owner of K- Vintners was Charles...funny and hippie like guy...long hair
almost dreadlocked...

I was told by many to visit his place but they were bottling and racking
barrels and not open to public as they were so busy. He would have seen us
the next week. I heard his Syrah were the most Hermitage like in North
America...but I did not get to try. And as luck has it non in my stores
here in North Carolina.

But I will return there this summer most likely.

wrote in message
...
Hi Richard,

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:29:34 -0400, "Richard Neidich"
wrote:

Could be true. I have no desire for US Merlots.

Apart from some of the better ones from Walla walla, neither do I.

Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla Walla. I love
that
appelation...

Leonetti impressed me very much, when I had it at a restaurant in
Seattle.

Woodward Canyon as well.

I also liked the l'Ecole 41 Estate 7 Hills as well. Oh, and although
it wasn't in the same class as the others I was taken with one from
Tamarack Vineyards in Firehouse Road.

We only spent about two/three days there, so didn't get to taste as
many as we'd have liked to. In fact, I think that overall I was
slightly more impressed with Syrah from the area than the Merlots,
though obviously Walla Walla is making it's reputation on the latter
wines, because they're so much more unusual.

And talking of syrah...

I liked K vintner's wines, but we didn't get to taste any of their
Merlots

I also liked all the Cayuse wines we tasted very much indeed, but
again - like K vintners didn't taste a Merlot.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

Bi!! wrote:

But I think you're missing my point
which is that most of our labeling practices are really about
marketing and have little do do with information about the contents.
The next time you're in your local wineshop just cruise the aisles and
try to determine where a domestic wine is from just by looking at the
front label. I think you'll be surprised how many wines you must pick-
up and scrutinize to find out who made it, what's really in it, and
where the juice is really from.

It is strange that someone brought up the name of Alexis Lichine
recently. His first real contribution to the wine world was changing
the label on Bordeaux whites to Sauvignon Blanc and watched the sales
go up 700%. Labels are about marketing for sure.
I am currently trying to get a handle on California's newest AVA,
Rockpile. I have so far tasted 9 wines from this new area that was
first planted in 1997 and became an AVA in 2002. The wines are
remarkably similar seemingly just from the soil and climate. I am
working on the next 9 wines over the next couple of weeks.
If you try three of these wines you will have a good idea what
this AVA is all about.
Some that are available: Carol Shelton (2 Zins and a Petite Syrah),
Cline, Rosenblum, Seghesio, Mauritson (6 or 7), JR Cellars.

I have had the Rosenblum before.

Also, Rosenblum a couple years back was selling shares in the company to
raise cash. Supposedly for new manufacturing. I passed cause there was no
guaranteed return, no dividends...did not make sense.

I saw Rosenblum sold...I should have bought $100000 it would have more than
tripled I think in 2 years. Damn.
"Bill Loftin" wrote in message
...
Bi!! wrote:

But I think you're missing my point
which is that most of our labeling practices are really about
marketing and have little do do with information about the contents.
The next time you're in your local wineshop just cruise the aisles and
try to determine where a domestic wine is from just by looking at the
front label. I think you'll be surprised how many wines you must pick-
up and scrutinize to find out who made it, what's really in it, and
where the juice is really from.

It is strange that someone brought up the name of Alexis Lichine
recently. His first real contribution to the wine world was changing
the label on Bordeaux whites to Sauvignon Blanc and watched the sales
go up 700%. Labels are about marketing for sure.
I am currently trying to get a handle on California's newest AVA,
Rockpile. I have so far tasted 9 wines from this new area that was
first planted in 1997 and became an AVA in 2002. The wines are remarkably
similar seemingly just from the soil and climate. I am
working on the next 9 wines over the next couple of weeks.
If you try three of these wines you will have a good idea what
this AVA is all about.
Some that are available: Carol Shelton (2 Zins and a Petite Syrah),
Cline, Rosenblum, Seghesio, Mauritson (6 or 7), JR Cellars.

Hi
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:20:41 -0400, "Richard Neidich"
wrote:

I liked K vintner's wines, but we didn't get to taste any of their
Merlots

Owner of K- Vintners was Charles...funny and hippie like guy...long hair
almost dreadlocked...

Yes, that's the guy... I found him hard to get a handle on. He seemed
immensely self satisfied and almost arrogant, but when you taste his
better wines, you can see that it's pretty well justified. Mind you,
I've been to other places in the world where they make wines that are
mind bogglingly good without that.

I heard his Syrah were the most Hermitage like in North America...but I did not get to try.

We got to taste their "Morson Lane" vineyard in barrel (as well as
some blends) which impressed me no end. We then got onto bottles,
where we had:- (with brief notes)

Wilbrand "?Wahlinke?" Slope Lovely nose, typical syrah. Seamless,
gorgeous again.

02 Roma More intense colour, petroleum/mineral nose mouth perfectly
integrated forward, glorious wine.

02 80% Cabernet Sauvignon 20% Syrah "En Cerise" Cayuse. Awesome.

In fact this last - the "En Cerise" was one of the few wines we
bought while in the West.

I don't know how close they are to Hermitage, I don't get that many
opportunities to drink either!

But I will return there this summer most likely.

Enjoy.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

I used to buy JL Chave but I did that when they were under $100.00 bottle.

I have some 1996 and 1998 in my cellar and they were GREAT BUYs.

Not sure if the new stuff is worth the price, but with college for kids, its
out of the question for me even if it is.
wrote in message
...
Hi
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:20:41 -0400, "Richard Neidich"
wrote:

I liked K vintner's wines, but we didn't get to taste any of their
Merlots

Owner of K- Vintners was Charles...funny and hippie like guy...long hair
almost dreadlocked...

Yes, that's the guy... I found him hard to get a handle on. He seemed
immensely self satisfied and almost arrogant, but when you taste his
better wines, you can see that it's pretty well justified. Mind you,
I've been to other places in the world where they make wines that are
mind bogglingly good without that.

I heard his Syrah were the most Hermitage like in North America...but I
did not get to try.

We got to taste their "Morson Lane" vineyard in barrel (as well as
some blends) which impressed me no end. We then got onto bottles,
where we had:- (with brief notes)

Wilbrand "?Wahlinke?" Slope Lovely nose, typical syrah. Seamless,
gorgeous again.

02 Roma More intense colour, petroleum/mineral nose mouth perfectly
integrated forward, glorious wine.

02 80% Cabernet Sauvignon 20% Syrah "En Cerise" Cayuse. Awesome.

In fact this last - the "En Cerise" was one of the few wines we
bought while in the West.

I don't know how close they are to Hermitage, I don't get that many
opportunities to drink either!

But I will return there this summer most likely.

Enjoy.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges

Timothy Hartley wrote:

So what? Would it not in fact be helpful to those consumers who had
tasted such wines and liked the distinctive style to be able easily to
recognise it again?

Consumers aren't so stupid that they need such labeling. Everything
they need is on the label already.


I simply do not understand what the problem is — each country has
developed a system which, broadly speaking, suits it.

I'm glad the USA has not adopted the EU naming conventions. I prefer it
the way it is.