Vilco wrote:

The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and officially
recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is definitely tied to a
place, to the rich history and culture of wine in America. As an
Italian I would never buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.

As far as I see, all the Italian Zinfandel is being sold in the US.
Is it time for Gallo and Bronco to market US made Primitivo (out of
Zinfandel grapes) in Italy?

Bill Loftin wrote:

As far as I see, all the Italian Zinfandel is being sold in the US.
Is it time for Gallo and Bronco to market US made Primitivo (out of
Zinfandel grapes) in Italy?

They may already be doing that, for all that I know. For my part, I'd
like to see some *quality* Zinfandels from Ridge or Seghesio marketed to
Puglia and Manduria so that they can see the heights that "Primitivo"
can achieve in different terroir ;-)

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

"Mark Lipton" wrote in message
...
Bill Loftin wrote:

can achieve in different terroir ;-


Semantic mode on/

Surely, given that terroir is a mix of climate, soil and topography, it
should be "with a different terroir" not "in"



pk

PK wrote:

can achieve in different terroir ;-


Semantic mode on/

Surely, given that terroir is a mix of climate, soil and topography, it
should be "with a different terroir" not "in"

Good call. I'm enough of a pedant to appreciate the distinction.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:23:07 +0100, Mike Tommasi
wrote:

The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and officially
recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is definitely tied to a place,
to the rich history and culture of wine in America. As an Italian I
would never buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.

They are now recognised as the same variety (as are Pinot Noir, Gris
and Blanc), but they are unlikely to be the same clones of that
variety, and may be totally different clonally. Irrespective of the
legalities, I'd prefer it if the Italians stuck to the name Primitivo.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:18:06 -0000, "PK"
wrote:

Nyetimber is up there with the best champagnes -

I think that is overstating the case, but certainly the better
vintages of Nyetimber compare well with Champagnes of a similar price.
And stylistically it is very similar.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Steve wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:34:23 +0000:

?? The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and
?? officially recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is
?? definitely tied to a place, to the rich history and
?? culture of wine in America. As an Italian I would never
?? buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.

SS They are now recognised as the same variety (as are Pinot
SS Noir, Gris and Blanc), but they are unlikely to be the same
SS clones of that variety, and may be totally different
SS clonally. Irrespective of the legalities, I'd prefer it if
SS the Italians stuck to the name Primitivo.

Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ? It has
no obvious meaning to me.


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:01:16 GMT, "James Silverton"
wrote:

Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ? It has
no obvious meaning to me.

I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar to each
other, but not closely related to the clones of Pimitivo in Italy.

Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal selection in
California and Italy could have effectively produced two very
different grapes for practical purposes. In the same way that Pinot
Blanc and Pinot Gris are practically different for example, despite
the fact that they technically belong to the same variety.

It's pure speculation that the clones are very different, but I bet
they are not the same clones both sides of the Atlantic. As far as I
know no one has done the research.

But it could be that the differences between California Zin and
Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

BTW - this is a good thread on Zinfandel and Primitivo
http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/...t=9733&p=77424

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Mar 19, 5:52�pm, Steve Slatcher wrote:
BTW - this is a good thread on Zinfandel and Primitivohttp://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9733&...

--
Steve Slatcherhttp://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

This is too.

http://www.zinfandel.org/about_zin/zindev.htm

Mike Tommasi wrote:

Methode Champenoise is also prohibited by European law.

True.

The correct term is Methode Classique.

Don't think I've ever seen that.

What I do encounter is "Méthode Traditionelle".

M.

Steve Slatcher wrote:

There is no US law (yet) that prevents such labeling,

But it's forbidden for new brands, isn't it?

AFAIK: yes.

M.

Steve wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

?? Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ?
?? It has no obvious meaning to me.

SS I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar
SS to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
SS Pimitivo in Italy.

SS Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
SS selection in California and Italy could have effectively
SS produced two very different grapes for practical purposes.
SS In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
SS practically different for example, despite the fact that
SS they technically belong to the same variety.

SS It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
SS but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
SS Atlantic. As far as I know no one has done the research.

SS But it could be that the differences between California Zin
SS and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
organism whose genetic information is identical to that from
which it was created.

I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how you
can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
describe a process of selection that might produce different
varieties.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton"
wrote:
�Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

�?? Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ?
�?? It has no obvious meaning to me.

�SS I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar
�SS to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
�SS Pimitivo in Italy.

�SS �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
�SS selection in California and Italy could have effectively
�SS produced two very different grapes for practical purposes.
�SS In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
�SS practically different for example, despite the fact that
�SS they technically belong to the same variety.

�SS It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
�SS but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
�SS Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the research.

�SS But it could be that the differences between California Zin
�SS and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
organism whose genetic information is identical to that �from
which it was created.

I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how you
can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
describe a process of selection that might produce different
varieties.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole Meredith's
explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a
result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that
occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new
vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to
the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations
accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other."

"DaleW" wrote in message
...
On Mar 20, 10:32�am, "James Silverton"

wrote:
�Steve �wrote �on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

�?? Would you please expand on "totally different clonally"
?
�?? It has no obvious meaning to me.

�SS I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be
similar
�SS to each other, but not closely related to the clones of
�SS Pimitivo in Italy.

�SS �Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal
�SS selection in California and Italy could have effectively
�SS produced two very different grapes for practical
purposes.
�SS In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are
�SS practically different for example, despite the fact that
�SS they technically belong to the same variety.

�SS It's pure speculation that the clones are very different,
�SS but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the
�SS Atlantic. �As far as I know no one has done the research.

�SS But it could be that the differences between California
Zin
�SS and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to
terroir.

I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact
replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an
organism whose genetic information is identical to that �from
which it was created.

I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot
Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA
sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try
to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how
you
can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a
beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to
form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to
describe a process of selection that might produce different
varieties.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole
Meredith's
explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises
as a
result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual)
that
occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or
otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine
carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for
new
vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation
survives to
the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The
mutations
accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each
other."

"Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a
clone (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might
differ. Perhaps to enlighten me, you know some references to
scientific papers or published books by authors from, say, U.
Cal, Davis, explaining these terms.



--
Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland