Last night, as Jean and I were having some 2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly
Pinot Noir (previously reported on), we were contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir. It's facile to call it "red
fruit," "strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking elsewhere. To make a long
story short, we pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit (an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a number of the scents. Jean
felt that quince was the high note in what she was smelling (once she
got past the barnyard, smoke and pencil lead that were definitely
present) but after that there was a lot of waffling between hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was unconvinced by all of the
scents, but was left puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are there floral notes? If
so, of what sort?

I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton

On Feb 23, 11:41 pm, Mark Lipton wrote:
Last night, as Jean and I were having some 2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly
Pinot Noir (previously reported on), we were contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir. It's facile to call it "red
fruit," "strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking elsewhere. To make a long
story short, we pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit (an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a number of the scents. Jean
felt that quince was the high note in what she was smelling (once she
got past the barnyard, smoke and pencil lead that were definitely
present) but after that there was a lot of waffling between hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was unconvinced by all of the
scents, but was left puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are there floral notes? If
so, of what sort?

I have not had such a good laugh in a long time. I was using Google
groups to read this group. They put sponsored ads in a column on the
right of the screen that some program they use thinks may be related
to the post. The first ad for your post was Buy Fruit Fly at
http://www.edsflymeat.com . Eds Fly Meat sells fruit flies to those
who keep animals that eat fruit flies, such as frogs. The second ad
was from Organic Essential Oils which had a somewhat better connection
to what you were discussing.

I try not try to be too exact in description of fruits or flowers that
a wine reminds me of. The same can happen if you try to describe the
taste of a fruit that someone else has not tasted in terms of other
fruits. For example, a mango might remind you of yellow peaches, a
hint of pine or other evergreen, perhaps a splash of pineapple and
honey, etc.

If I confine myself to classic Burgundy, I usually think of perhaps
red cherry with black cherry for some of the fuller wines. However
some cassis, blackberry, perhaps dark plum is possible. Some lighter
Burgundy, especially from cooler years, can make me think of
strawberry. Then there often is a vague mixed spice character to some
of the better Burgundy - especially DRC. I seldom associate flowers
with Burgundy, although I often do so with some of the better examples
of German Riesling, especially from the Mosel.

all thats been mentioned in the previous post.

old good Burg is ****pot pinot organic and smells like old claret,
blackcurrants and tobacco.

which famous wine writer said that he hadn't mixed up old Burgundy with
Claret since that morning.

JT

Much wisdom in above replies.
Elders make much sense.

While I'm one of AFW's leading practitioners of the "name that fruit"
style of note taking, I don't think for others that what fruit I
detect makes a huge difference (nor do I pay that much attention to
others' descriptors). Though a basic red vs black (or maybe white vs
yellow in some whites) can give a clue re fruit style, just as reading
about earth/forest floor/mushrooms can give a clue re secondary
notes.

That being said, to me the purest fruit expression of Pinot Noir is
red and black cherry. But red and black raspberry, red currants
(occasionally black currant), strawberry are all part of the palette
(not palate); occasionally blackberry or red/black plum. If blueberry
raises its head I tend to run away screaming.

Getting back to the red/black fruit thing, I'm not as familiar with
Santa Maria Valley pinot and have no set ideas. But in Burgundy I
think of some areas (Volnay, Savigny) as more red fruit, and others
(Pommard, Nuits St George) as more black. Also I think fruit is darker
in higher acid vintages, and redder in the low acid vintages. But no
hard and fast rules.

"Mark Lipton" in m :
. . .
What fruit character do you find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are
there floral notes?

You don't ask for much, eh, Mark? :-] How about something easy, like
"Review ampelography and history of Zinfandel. You have thirty seconds."

Different smells in different Pinots! I am used to some core PN-varietal
smells, not all of them fructoid. (Vulcanized rubber, often anise,
blueberries especially when young or in barrel, dried orange peel in certain
cases.) This is based on more Burgundian PNs than New-World (just because
there've been far more of the former to try, even within the US, over the
years).

Some makers have a style you (or anyway, many people I've seen) can pick out
blind instantly with experience. Like a musician recognizing the composer
of a few notes heard for the first time. Dujacs under Seysses père.

With age in the PN I often smell "oily fruit esters" -- hints of banana,
wild cherry, cantaloupe (some of which can be roughly approximated in the
laboratory from "scratch" as you chemists know). Older PNs, if concentrated
or of a brooding nature, can have "drupey" (pitfuit) smells -- plums, sour
cherries. Some PNs even when young have signature smells like raspberries.
So it depends!

Cheers -- Max

"Max Hauser" wrote in message
...
"Mark Lipton" in m :
. . .
What fruit character do you find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are
there floral notes?

You don't ask for much, eh, Mark? :-] How about something easy, like
"Review ampelography and history of Zinfandel. You have thirty seconds."

Different smells in different Pinots! I am used to some core PN-varietal
smells, not all of them fructoid. (Vulcanized rubber, often anise,
blueberries especially when young or in barrel, dried orange peel in
certain cases.) This is based on more Burgundian PNs than New-World (just
because there've been far more of the former to try, even within the US,
over the years).

Some makers have a style you (or anyway, many people I've seen) can pick
out blind instantly with experience. Like a musician recognizing the
composer of a few notes heard for the first time. Dujacs under Seysses
père.

With age in the PN I often smell "oily fruit esters" -- hints of banana,
wild cherry, cantaloupe (some of which can be roughly approximated in the
laboratory from "scratch" as you chemists know). Older PNs, if
concentrated or of a brooding nature, can have "drupey" (pitfuit)
smells -- plums, sour cherries. Some PNs even when young have signature
smells like raspberries. So it depends!

It might also depends on one's genetic make-up. I've been discussing the
taste of cilantro (Coriander) on another group; many, like me, find it
tastes of soap whereas others claim it is lemony. Perhaps our wine senses
follow similar patterns.
Graham

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:41:13 -0500, Mark Lipton
wrote:

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir?

If you want the honest truth, in my personal TNs I have given up
describing PN in terms of other fruits. I just find it so
distinctive there is little point in bothering. I just try to
describe it in terms of jamminess and intensity etc.

But if I were forced to make a comparison I'd probably go for morello
cherry.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

In article ,
Mark Lipton wrote:

Last night, as Jean and I were having some 2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly
Pinot Noir (previously reported on), we were contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir. It's facile to call it "red
fruit," "strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking elsewhere. To make a long
story short, we pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit (an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a number of the scents. Jean
felt that quince was the high note in what she was smelling (once she
got past the barnyard, smoke and pencil lead that were definitely
present) but after that there was a lot of waffling between hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was unconvinced by all of the
scents, but was left puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are there floral notes? If
so, of what sort?

I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton

I often get sour cherries and occasionally a lavender/strawberry mix in
the better ones. Too much strawberry and my brain says Grenache and
that, to me, is the wrong flavor profile for Pinot Noir.

On Feb 24, 12:41 am, Mark Lipton wrote:
Last night, as Jean and I were having some 2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly
Pinot Noir (previously reported on), we were contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir. It's facile to call it "red
fruit," "strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking elsewhere. To make a long
story short, we pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit (an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a number of the scents. Jean
felt that quince was the high note in what she was smelling (once she
got past the barnyard, smoke and pencil lead that were definitely
present) but after that there was a lot of waffling between hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was unconvinced by all of the
scents, but was left puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are there floral notes? If
so, of what sort?

I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton



Why do you do this? Is there some disorder that you suffer? Wine has
odors. So? Enjoy them...in silence....

On Feb 28, 2:32 pm, Mike Tommasi wrote:
UC wrote:
On Feb 24, 12:41 am, Mark Lipton wrote:
Last night, as Jean and I were having some 2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly
Pinot Noir (previously reported on), we were contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir. It's facile to call it "red
fruit," "strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking elsewhere. To make a long
story short, we pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit (an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a number of the scents. Jean
felt that quince was the high note in what she was smelling (once she
got past the barnyard, smoke and pencil lead that were definitely
present) but after that there was a lot of waffling between hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was unconvinced by all of the
scents, but was left puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are there floral notes? If
so, of what sort?

I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton

Why do you do this? Is there some disorder that you suffer? Wine has
odors. So? Enjoy them...in silence....

What UC is what you get...

Mark, I think the difficulty is in deciding what is varietal and what is
not... but here is my stab.

All the berries come to mind, depending on maturity and climate
(Blackberry, cherry, raspberry, strawberry), but no flowers (certainly
not white flowers) except maybe violet (which is similar to raspberry
anyhow).

--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail



Wines have their own odors that only vaguely resemble others. Why does
anyone care about shit like this? Honestly......do you get out of your
car and sniff new asphalt to see whether it resembles a barnyard?

On Feb 28, 2:50 pm, Mike Tommasi wrote:
Mike Tommasi wrote:
UC wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:32 pm, Mike Tommasi wrote:
UC wrote:
On Feb 24, 12:41 am, Mark Lipton wrote:
Last night, as Jean and I were having some 2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly
Pinot Noir (previously reported on), we were contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir. It's facile to call it
"red
fruit," "strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking elsewhere. To make a long
story short, we pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit (an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a number of the scents. Jean
felt that quince was the high note in what she was smelling (once she
got past the barnyard, smoke and pencil lead that were definitely
present) but after that there was a lot of waffling between hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was unconvinced by all of the
scents, but was left puzzled by how to best describe it.
So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw? What fruit character do
you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are there floral notes? If
so, of what sort?
I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton
Why do you do this? Is there some disorder that you suffer? Wine has
odors. So? Enjoy them...in silence....
What UC is what you get...

Mark, I think the difficulty is in deciding what is varietal and what is
not... but here is my stab.

All the berries come to mind, depending on maturity and climate
(Blackberry, cherry, raspberry, strawberry), but no flowers (certainly
not white flowers) except maybe violet (which is similar to raspberry
anyhow).

--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Wines have their own odors that only vaguely resemble others. Why does
anyone care about shit like this? Honestly......do you get out of your
car and sniff new asphalt to see whether it resembles a barnyard?

It's just shorthand, UC. If we were to follow your logic to the end, we
would stop writing on the NG. And I don't sniff asphalt because I know
what it smells like and I don;t eat it nor write about it on a newsgroup.

I'm in California this week, I just noticed the asphalt here smells
different, less sulphur-like.

--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Different terroir and microclimate, surely...

Mike Tommasi wrote:

UC wrote:
On Feb 24, 12:41 am, Mark Lipton
wrote:
Last night, as Jean and I were having some
2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly Pinot Noir
(previously reported on), we were
contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir.
It's facile to call it "red fruit,"
"strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to
really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking
elsewhere. To make a long story short, we
pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit
(an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a
number of the scents. Jean felt that quince
was the high note in what she was smelling
(once she got past the barnyard, smoke and
pencil lead that were definitely present) but
after that there was a lot of waffling between
hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was
unconvinced by all of the scents, but was left
puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw?
What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are
there floral notes? If so, of what sort?

I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton



Why do you do this? Is there some disorder that
you suffer? Wine has odors. So? Enjoy them...in
silence....

What UC is what you get...

Mark, I think the difficulty is in deciding what
is varietal and what is not... but here is my
stab.

All the berries come to mind, depending on
maturity and climate (Blackberry, cherry,
raspberry, strawberry), but no flowers
(certainly not white flowers) except maybe
violet (which is similar to raspberry anyhow).

a LOT of the "odors" "smell" "bouquet" in wine are
from the oak they are aged in and not the grape
itself. If one were to actually smell the grapes
fermented in stainless, then one could tell the
"Varietal" differences.

I am an amateur winemaker / winegrower and worked
at a commercial vineyard after retirement. I am
always amused and sometimes disgusted by the wine
"experts" ALA snobs, who have never grown,
crushed or fermented a grape in their entire life
and yet they can tell "Varietal" differences in
the "grapes / wine ???".

I would even go so far as to bet that the
following experiment could be done.

Take any vineyard. Ferment, for example, Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc and Merlot and barrel
age them in the same age oak barrel and oak of
the same origin and for the same length of time.
I am willing to bet that the average "expert"
could not distinguish the three and if they could
tell a difference they would miss identify the
variety.

White wines, on the other hand are "usually" not
barrel aged with the exception of some Chardonnay
and some other varieties such as Sauvignon Blanc
("Fume Blanc"). One CAN usually tell the
Varietal differences in non barreled whites.

Conclusion:

Red wines, barrel aged, are STRONGLY influenced by
the barrel - probably MORE so than the "Varietal
differences.

Most commercial winemakers will (might confide in
you) tell you that the best way to make up
deficiencies in a red wine are to "oak the hell
out of it" - us a lot of new barrels.

Advice:

If you enjoy the wine, forget about all the phony
descriptors and just drink up.

"Mike Tommasi" wrote ......

I'm in California this week, I just noticed the asphalt here smells
different, less sulphur-like.


Did you get down on all fours and lick it Michael?

When I have conducted this very interesting experiment I found a distinct
tar flavour in Piedmont; whereas the asphalt in Bandol had distinct
leather/tobacco nuances.

Australia on the other hand is pure eucalypt and kangaroo shit !!!!!

st.h

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:31:15 +1300, "st.helier"
wrote:

"Mike Tommasi" wrote ......

I'm in California this week, I just noticed the asphalt here smells
different, less sulphur-like.

Did you get down on all fours and lick it Michael?

Don't be stupid. Smelling an licking is for professional only. You've
got to eat a whole one with a meal. I do this all the time with
Italian roads and unsderstand them properly.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Mar 1, 12:46 am, Mike Tommasi wrote:
Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
Mike Tommasi wrote:

UC wrote:
On Feb 24, 12:41 am, Mark Lipton
wrote:
Last night, as Jean and I were having some
2000 Byron Santa Maria Vly Pinot Noir
(previously reported on), we were
contemplating how to
describe the varietal fruit of Pinot Noir.
It's facile to call it "red fruit,"
"strawberry" or "cherry" but when we tried to
really put our
finger on it, we found ourselves looking
elsewhere. To make a long story short, we
pulled out Jean Lenoir's "Le Nez du Vin" kit
(an Xmas
present from years past) and tried out a
number of the scents. Jean felt that quince
was the high note in what she was smelling
(once she got past the barnyard, smoke and
pencil lead that were definitely present) but
after that there was a lot of waffling between
hawthorn,
acacia and black currant flowers. I was
unconvinced by all of the scents, but was left
puzzled by how to best describe it.

So, what sayest you, Thou denizens of afw?
What fruit character do you
find as the most typical for Pinot Noir? Are
there floral notes? If so, of what sort?

I am curious (yellow)
Mark Lipton

Why do you do this? Is there some disorder that
you suffer? Wine has odors. So? Enjoy them...in
silence....
What UC is what you get...

Mark, I think the difficulty is in deciding what
is varietal and what is not... but here is my
stab.

All the berries come to mind, depending on
maturity and climate (Blackberry, cherry,
raspberry, strawberry), but no flowers
(certainly not white flowers) except maybe
violet (which is similar to raspberry anyhow).

a LOT of the "odors" "smell" "bouquet" in wine are
from the oak they are aged in and not the grape
itself. If one were to actually smell the grapes
fermented in stainless, then one could tell the
"Varietal" differences.

I am an amateur winemaker / winegrower and worked
at a commercial vineyard after retirement. I am
always amused and sometimes disgusted by the wine
"experts" ALA snobs, who have never grown,
crushed or fermented a grape in their entire life
and yet they can tell "Varietal" differences in
the "grapes / wine ???".

I would even go so far as to bet that the
following experiment could be done.

Take any vineyard. Ferment, for example, Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc and Merlot and barrel
age them in the same age oak barrel and oak of
the same origin and for the same length of time.
I am willing to bet that the average "expert"
could not distinguish the three and if they could
tell a difference they would miss identify the
variety.

White wines, on the other hand are "usually" not
barrel aged with the exception of some Chardonnay
and some other varieties such as Sauvignon Blanc
("Fume Blanc"). One CAN usually tell the
Varietal differences in non barreled whites.

Conclusion:

Red wines, barrel aged, are STRONGLY influenced by
the barrel - probably MORE so than the "Varietal
differences.

Most commercial winemakers will (might confide in
you) tell you that the best way to make up
deficiencies in a red wine are to "oak the hell
out of it" - us a lot of new barrels.

Advice:

If you enjoy the wine, forget about all the phony
descriptors and just drink up.

OK,

I get it.

--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail



Every different bottling of Nero d'Avola tastes wildly different to
me. There is little, if any, 'varietal' charcter that I can detect.