Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!

"UC" wrote in news:1158016008.120851.287570
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!



for the same reason citrus is grafted.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Joseph Coulter wrote:
"UC" wrote in news:1158016008.120851.287570
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!



for the same reason citrus is grafted.

???

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

the graft to make varieties that otherwise don't exist in the
wild...seedless navals!


"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...

Joseph Coulter wrote:
"UC" wrote in news:1158016008.120851.287570
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!



for the same reason citrus is grafted.

???

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Richard Neidich wrote:
the graft to make varieties that otherwise don't exist in the
wild...seedless navals!

That's not the reason European grape varieties are grafted onto
American stocks.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera


"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...

Joseph Coulter wrote:
"UC" wrote in news:1158016008.120851.287570
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!



for the same reason citrus is grafted.

???

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote .......

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!


That's the point; Phylloxera is native to the US to which American native
grapes are largely resistant.

European Vitis Vinifera are very susceptible, and once the bug found its way
to Europe, it proved disasterous.

Without the grafting onto US rootstock, the European wine industry would
have been wiped out.

Would some European plants have resistent traits? - maybe.

But who was going to let their entire vineyard die in order to find the one
plant.

--

st.helier

I agree...but it is reason they do citrus---to alter varieties I thought.
Hell, I am not a agriculture specialist.





"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...

Richard Neidich wrote:
the graft to make varieties that otherwise don't exist in the
wild...seedless navals!

That's not the reason European grape varieties are grafted onto
American stocks.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera


"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...

Joseph Coulter wrote:
"UC" wrote in
news:1158016008.120851.287570
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have
a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!



for the same reason citrus is grafted.

???

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

"Richard Neidich" wrote in
ink.net:

I agree...but it is reason they do citrus---to alter varieties I
thought. Hell, I am not a agriculture specialist.





"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...

Richard Neidich wrote:
the graft to make varieties that otherwise don't exist in the
wild...seedless navals!

That's not the reason European grape varieties are grafted onto
American stocks.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera


"UC" wrote in message
ups.com...

Joseph Coulter wrote:
"UC" wrote in
news:1158016008.120851.287570
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them
onto American stems), and determine by natural selection those
that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in
SOME plants!



for the same reason citrus is grafted.

???

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/





citrus are grafted for sturdiness of rootstock.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

st.helier wrote:

That's the point; Phylloxera is native to the US to which American native
grapes are largely resistant.

European Vitis Vinifera are very susceptible, and once the bug found its way
to Europe, it proved disasterous.

Without the grafting onto US rootstock, the European wine industry would
have been wiped out.

Would some European plants have resistent traits? - maybe.

But who was going to let their entire vineyard die in order to find the one
plant.

Phylloxera can be controlled by chemical treatment of the earth around
the vine, but this is very expensive. Until the end of WW II,
Romanee-Conti vines grew on their native roots and were not grafted to
American root stock. They were kept healthy with chemical treatment,
which was no great problem for a wine as expensive as Romanee-Conti.
However, because of shortages of needed chemicals during the war, the
vines remained untreated for a considerable time and were invaded by
Phylloxera. The vineyard had to be completely replanted after the 1945
vintage. There was no Romanee-Conti for many years after that. The rich
owners of Romanee-Conti could afford such a loss, but they likely were
extremely unhappy about it. Owners of vineyards producing less
expensive wines often can not afford to take such risks.

There are a few small pockets of vines around Europe that were not
infected by Phylloxera. Tiny amounts of Champagne still come from
grapes on vines with native roots. A tiny amount of port is made from
vines on native roots. Colares in Portugal is made from grapes from
ungrafted vines. The vines are planted in very deep sand by the ocean,
and the Phylloxera pests apparently can not live in the dry sand at
some stage of their life cycle. The roots of the vines go very deep to
seek water, and the pests do not go deep enough to reach the moist
area.

There was much experimentation with different root stocks to see which
gave the best wine as well as resisted the pests. Apparently proper
selection of rootstock for grafting does influence the quality of the
wine. For a very long time after grafting over to American rootstock, a
favorite topic of wine discussion concered the quality of
pre-Phylloxera wine compared to wine made after grafting became common.

European wine grapes have been planted without grafting in some areas
of North and South America that were free of Phylloxera. However, in
some of these cases, Phylloxera moved in and the vines had to have
expensive treatments or be grafted over to American rootstock.

"cwdjrxyz" wrote:

The vineyard had to be completely replanted after the 1945
vintage. There was no Romanee-Conti for many years after that.

Not *that* many years: six, in fact. 1952 was the first vintage
after grafting.

M.

In a very real sense, this 'experiment' was carried out unintentionally; and
the result was a disaster. A huge % of the French vineyard stock was wiped
out. As another poster mentioned, there are some vines that survived - but I
don't believe it had as much to do with soil type as it did isolation; small
vineyards that were remote from others, with no equipment or worker traffic
to and from infected vineyards, 'survived'. Bottom line - the 'resistant'
varieties do exist; the natvie North American root stock, which evolved
along with the little critters. In the dense vineyard regions of the world,
it is a necessity to graft.

Here in the US, and I believe to a lesser degree in Europe, there are many
recently planted vines that are not grafted - but only in regions that were
previously uninfected, and are isolated from other vineyards. I have one
such vineyard of self-rooted vinifera. I don' allow any equip from other
vineyards, and we do all the vineyard work ourselves. Our county has only
one reported instance of phylloxera, and is quite vigilant about imported
plants and material.



"UC" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:14:49 GMT, "Ric" wrote:

In a very real sense, this 'experiment' was carried out unintentionally; and
the result was a disaster. A huge % of the French vineyard stock was wiped
out. As another poster mentioned, there are some vines that survived - but I
don't believe it had as much to do with soil type as it did isolation; small
vineyards that were remote from others, with no equipment or worker traffic
to and from infected vineyards, 'survived'. Bottom line - the 'resistant'
varieties do exist; the natvie North American root stock, which evolved
along with the little critters. In the dense vineyard regions of the world,
it is a necessity to graft.

Here in the US, and I believe to a lesser degree in Europe, there are many
recently planted vines that are not grafted - but only in regions that were
previously uninfected, and are isolated from other vineyards. I have one
such vineyard of self-rooted vinifera. I don' allow any equip from other
vineyards, and we do all the vineyard work ourselves. Our county has only
one reported instance of phylloxera, and is quite vigilant about imported
plants and material.

As a recent transplant to North Texas, I've learned that the
responsibility for saving the Euro vineyards is attributed to Thomas
Volney Munson of Denison Texas who recognized the solution as grafting
the Euro vines on resistant N. Texas root stock.

There is still a viniculture program at Grayson Community College
(Denison TX is in Grayson County) with a small vineyard and classrooms
located on the former Perrin Air Force Base.

I've had the opportunity to taste some of the local wine at a nice
family-style Italian restaurant in Denison. The offered Cab Sauv,
Chard, and Sangiovese bottlings along with a couple of other varietals
which I can't recall at the moment. The Sangiovese was too sweet for
my taste. The CS was on the sweet side as well, but tolerable for the
price (about $15/btl)--if nothing else were available!

Noting the discussion regarding isolated pockets of resistant vines, I
saw a piece on TV a few months ago that pointed out that Bollinger was
the last of the Champagne region growers that had original rootstock,
phylloxera-resistant vines. Must be why I love Bollie so much.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Noting the discussion regarding isolated pockets of resistant vines, I
saw a piece on TV a few months ago that pointed out that Bollinger was
the last of the Champagne region growers that had original rootstock,
phylloxera-resistant vines. Must be why I love Bollie so much.


The wine made from grapes from ungrafted vines that Bollinger sells is
called Vieilles Vignes Francaises, and the grapes are Pinot Noir. The
1996 is supposed to be a good vintage for it.Only a small amount is
produced, and this wine can be difficult to find and very expensive. So
far as I know, this is the only wine from ungrafted vines that
Bollinger sells. However, I guess that in a year that is not up to
their standards, they might put this wine in a non-vintage blend, but I
have no information that they have done so. The only vintage of the old
vine wine I have had is the 1973. It is a rather big wine, but it is
somewhat difficult to compare with other Champagne since it is made
from Pinot Noir only, and many other top Champagnes are blends of wine
from more than one variety of grape.

On 12 Sep 2006 08:36:47 -0700, "cwdjrxyz"
wrote:


Ed Rasimus wrote:

Noting the discussion regarding isolated pockets of resistant vines, I
saw a piece on TV a few months ago that pointed out that Bollinger was
the last of the Champagne region growers that had original rootstock,
phylloxera-resistant vines. Must be why I love Bollie so much.


The wine made from grapes from ungrafted vines that Bollinger sells is
called Vieilles Vignes Francaises, and the grapes are Pinot Noir. The
1996 is supposed to be a good vintage for it.Only a small amount is
produced, and this wine can be difficult to find and very expensive. So
far as I know, this is the only wine from ungrafted vines that
Bollinger sells. However, I guess that in a year that is not up to
their standards, they might put this wine in a non-vintage blend, but I
have no information that they have done so. The only vintage of the old
vine wine I have had is the 1973. It is a rather big wine, but it is
somewhat difficult to compare with other Champagne since it is made
from Pinot Noir only, and many other top Champagnes are blends of wine
from more than one variety of grape.

Curses, foiled again. Just when I think I know something, someone in
the group gives me the details of how superficial my knowledge really
is!

Thanks again, but I'll still think I'm drinking something special when
I get my occasional bottle of Bollie.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On 11 Sep 2006 16:06:48 -0700, "UC"
wrote:

Why don't they just let the vines grow (i.e., not graft them onto
American stems), and determine by natural selection those that have a
natural resistance to Phylloxera? Surely that trait exists in SOME
plants!

Vines that naturally select for Phylloxera resistance would very
likely not be any good for making wine with. The grape varieties we
use now are propagated from cuttings precisely because we want to use
the same genes as they make nice wine.

The other issue would have been what all the wine growers would do for
a living, and what we would drink, while naural selection takes its
course.

If all we wanted is Phylloxera resistance we could have simply grown
wine grapes directly from American species. That was definitely
discussed as an option, but discarded as the wine was judged to be
unacceptable.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher