Hi Ray;

I went to the web site for your book "Neander Thin":
http://www.neanderthin.com/site/

Your site didn't mention anything about your credentials.

Do you have a degree in nutrition, medicine, a health related field or
a science?

Have you published any studies in any journals?

It is true that doctors have been known to publish bad nutrition
advice, such as Dr. Atkins with his low carb diet.

However, how is the public to seperate your low carb diet from other
diets that may not be healthy?

What are you qualifications beyond someone who just wrote a book?

(Barbara) wrote in message om>...
> Hi Ray;
>
> I went to the web site for your book "Neander Thin":
> http://www.neanderthin.com/site/
> Your site didn't mention anything about your credentials.
> Do you have a degree in nutrition, medicine, a health related field or
> a science?
> Have you published any studies in any journals?
> It is true that doctors have been known to publish bad nutrition
> advice, such as Dr. Atkins with his low carb diet.
> However, how is the public to seperate your low carb diet from other
> diets that may not be healthy?
> What are you qualifications beyond someone who just wrote a book?

My biographic information is contained in the numerous articles about
me in the media section of my site ( as well as other articles,
reviews etc. scattered on the web).

My colaborators are listed in the Ackowledgements of my book and
include three M.D.s ( Alan S. Brown, Mike Eades - author of "Protein
Power", S. Boyd Eaton - Emory University), a Professor of
Anthropology( fmr. dept. Chairman) and Biochemistry ( Dr. Vaughn
Bryant-Texas A&M) and a Professor of Physiology ( Dr. Loren
Cordain-Colorado State University, author of "The Paleo Diet"). Three
of the five have been published multiple times in peer-reviewed
journals.

I'm just a guy who used to have arthritis and diabetes who went to the
library and Universities 20 years ago looking for answers. After
eating a diet devoid of technology-dependent foods for one week I felt
immediate relief from these disorders and sought to learn more about
the relationship between the "Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge" and
auto-immune disorders.

My book was the fruit of my efforts and has been criticly acclaimed by
paleopathologists everywhere. I hope you'll find it was worth the ten
years of research it took to write it. I'm sure your public library
can provide you with a (free) copy to read ( ask about inter-library
loan)

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

(Barbara) wrote in message om>...
> Hi Ray;
>
> I went to the web site for your book "Neander Thin":
> http://www.neanderthin.com/site/
> Your site didn't mention anything about your credentials.
> Do you have a degree in nutrition, medicine, a health related field or
> a science?
> Have you published any studies in any journals?
> It is true that doctors have been known to publish bad nutrition
> advice, such as Dr. Atkins with his low carb diet.
> However, how is the public to seperate your low carb diet from other
> diets that may not be healthy?
> What are you qualifications beyond someone who just wrote a book?

My biographic information is contained in the numerous articles about
me in the media section of my site ( as well as other articles,
reviews etc. scattered on the web).

My colaborators are listed in the Ackowledgements of my book and
include three M.D.s ( Alan S. Brown, Mike Eades - author of "Protein
Power", S. Boyd Eaton - Emory University), a Professor of
Anthropology( fmr. dept. Chairman) and Biochemistry ( Dr. Vaughn
Bryant-Texas A&M) and a Professor of Physiology ( Dr. Loren
Cordain-Colorado State University, author of "The Paleo Diet"). Three
of the five have been published multiple times in peer-reviewed
journals.

I'm just a guy who used to have arthritis and diabetes who went to the
library and Universities 20 years ago looking for answers. After
eating a diet devoid of technology-dependent foods for one week I felt
immediate relief from these disorders and sought to learn more about
the relationship between the "Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge" and
auto-immune disorders.

My book was the fruit of my efforts and has been criticly acclaimed by
paleopathologists everywhere. I hope you'll find it was worth the ten
years of research it took to write it. I'm sure your public library
can provide you with a (free) copy to read ( ask about inter-library
loan)

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.

John

"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.

John

"John Coleman" > wrote in message >...
> "The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>
> John

I wonder why he is participating in this group.

He seems intelligent enough to realize he isn't going to sell many
copies of his book here and he seems smart enough to find better ways
of selling his book.

Many people join forums on the internet where they have no interest in
the subject. They post for the sike purpose of instigating arguments
for the hell of it.

I would have thought someone industrious enough with their time to get
a book published would have more fun options for the use of their
time.

Maybe his daily life is just as empty as the other trolls who have to
post here to get their kicks.

> Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
> scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.
>
> i

Such as? And exactly what do they "work"?

Atkins research is a farce
(http://www.atkinsfacts.org/atkins/13/Phony_Baloney.htm), "The Paleo Diet"
has undergone no significant (if indeed any) health evaluation as yet that I
am aware of, although it is certainly more credible than Atkins. Low carbo
diets are undertaken primarily to lose weight, yet most of Asia eat a high
carbo diet and yet have no obesity and overweight problem - take a look at
the China study.

"A 2003 review of Atkins "theories" in the Journal of the American
College of Nutrition concluded: "When properly evaluated, the theories and
arguments of popular low carbohydrate diet books... rely on poorly
controlled, non-peer-reviewed studies, anecdotes and non-science rhetoric.
This review illustrates the complexity of nutrition misinformation
perpetrated by some popular press diet books. A closer look at the science
behind the claims made for [these books] reveals nothing more than a modern
twist on an antique food fad."[23] "
-http://www.atkinsfacts.org/

John

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
> In article >, John Coleman wrote:
>
>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>>
>
>
> Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
> scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.

There have only been two studies showing that such diets are safe.

The longest being a year.

Steve

Ignoramus8954 wrote:
> In article >, John Coleman wrote:
>
>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>>
>
>
> Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
> scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.

There have only been two studies showing that such diets are safe.

The longest being a year.

Steve

Steve > wrote in message >...
> Ignoramus8954 wrote:
> > In article >, John Coleman wrote:
> >
> >>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
> > Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
> > scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.
>
> There have only been two studies showing that such diets are safe.
> The longest being a year.

for info about low-term low carbing see:
Shaper, A. G. et al,
"Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.

The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

Steve > wrote in message >...
> Ignoramus8954 wrote:
> > In article >, John Coleman wrote:
> >
> >>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
> > Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
> > scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.
>
> There have only been two studies showing that such diets are safe.
> The longest being a year.

for info about low-term low carbing see:
Shaper, A. G. et al,
"Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.

The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

Ray Audette wrote:
> Steve > wrote in message >...
>
>>Ignoramus8954 wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, John Coleman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>>>
>>>Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
>>>scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.
>>
>>There have only been two studies showing that such diets are safe.
>>The longest being a year.
>
>
> for info about low-term low carbing see:
> Shaper, A. G. et al,
> "Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
> American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.
>
> The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
> centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
> their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
> lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
> notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
> cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).
>
> Ray Audette
> Author "NeanderThin"
> www.NeanderThin.com

I suspect they also get a lot of physical activity. Do they walk, run
and do physical activities?

Ray Audette wrote:
> Steve > wrote in message >...
>
>>Ignoramus8954 wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, John Coleman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>>>
>>>Why, it is a variation of low carbohydrate diets, which have a lot of
>>>scientific, randomized and controlled studies showing that they work.
>>
>>There have only been two studies showing that such diets are safe.
>>The longest being a year.
>
>
> for info about low-term low carbing see:
> Shaper, A. G. et al,
> "Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
> American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.
>
> The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
> centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
> their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
> lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
> notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
> cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).
>
> Ray Audette
> Author "NeanderThin"
> www.NeanderThin.com

I suspect they also get a lot of physical activity. Do they walk, run
and do physical activities?

> The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
> centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
> their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
> lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
> notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
> cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).
>
> Ray Audette
> Author "NeanderThin"
> www.NeanderThin.com

The Sambura eat a lot of fermented milk products that may lower cholesterol
and do not eat anything like a Paleo diet, and nor do the Masai. It is
claimed that the fermenting bacteria bind out choelsterol on their cell
walls. Unless you eat a lot of raw yogurt made from these bacterial strains,
you probably will not lower your cholesterol in a similar fashion.
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/68/9/4689#R18

I have heard (from TC Campbell) that the Masaai still get some CV disease. I
don't believe any of these populations have been well studied with modern
methods for cardiovascular disease.

How low is the cholesterol in these populations BTW? The rural Chinese
manage an average of 127 (China Study). Lowering of cholesterol with age
might be a pathological sign.

Irrespective of these issues, a healthy cholesterol level and lowered CVD
risk can be obtained with a vegetarian diet, and this is proven by clinical
observations. http://heart.kumu.org/ No similar evidence exists for low-carb
diets.

My cholesterol is around 100 with a ratio of 1:1, what is yours is Ray?

John

I also found this is the google cache:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cac...Northern+Kenya
&hl=en

Beach Runner > wrote in message . com>...
> > Shaper, A. G. et al,
> > "Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
> > American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.
> > The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
> > centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
> > their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
> > lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
> > notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
> > cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).

> I suspect they also get a lot of physical activity. Do they walk, run
> and do physical activities?

Tutsi men traditionally do very little physical exercise. Herding is
done by children, food preparation and construction by women, men
stand around and protect the herds from lions. In spite of this they
do win a lot of international marathon competitions.

Their results are reflected in my own experence. Even though I am
known as "The Laziest Man in Dallas, Texas" ( ask my ex-wife)and have
been eating a high-fat, high caloeie diet for twenty years, I have a
7% body-fat content and extremely low cholesterol and tryglyceride
levels. Multiple studies have found very little statistical
correlation between exercise and weight or cholesterol ( see Lipitor
TV ads).

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin
www.NeanderThin.com

Ray Audette wrote:

> Beach Runner > wrote in message . com>...
>
>>>Shaper, A. G. et al,
>>>"Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
>>> American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.
>>>The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
>>>centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
>>>their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
>>>lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
>>>notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
>>>cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).
>
>
>>I suspect they also get a lot of physical activity. Do they walk, run
>>and do physical activities?
>
>
> Tutsi men traditionally do very little physical exercise. Herding is
> done by children, food preparation and construction by women, men
> stand around and protect the herds from lions. In spite of this they
> do win a lot of international marathon competitions.
>
> Their results are reflected in my own experence. Even though I am
> known as "The Laziest Man in Dallas, Texas" ( ask my ex-wife)and have
> been eating a high-fat, high caloeie diet for twenty years, I have a
> 7% body-fat content and extremely low cholesterol and tryglyceride
> levels. Multiple studies have found very little statistical
> correlation between exercise and weight or cholesterol ( see Lipitor
> TV ads).
>
> Ray Audette
> Author "NeanderThin
> www.NeanderThin.com

As a member of the National Weight Control Registry, and someone who has
examined virtually every long term weight loss study, their remains
not one replicated long term weight loss clinical treatment other than
gastric surgery.

Ray Audette wrote:

> Beach Runner > wrote in message . com>...
>
>>>Shaper, A. G. et al,
>>>"Cardiovascular studies in the Samburu tribe of Northern Kenya."
>>> American Heart Journal Vol. 63 No. 4 (April 1962) 437-442.
>>>The Sambura ( a Tutsi tribe)have been a very low carb diet for
>>>centuries. They traditionally eat no vegetable foods and get 65% of
>>>their calories from animal fat. They are extremely thin and have the
>>>lowest average cholesterol of any people ever studied. They are also
>>>notable for both their lack of cardiovascular disease and that their
>>>cholesterol levels go down with age ( unlike any other population).
>
>
>>I suspect they also get a lot of physical activity. Do they walk, run
>>and do physical activities?
>
>
> Tutsi men traditionally do very little physical exercise. Herding is
> done by children, food preparation and construction by women, men
> stand around and protect the herds from lions. In spite of this they
> do win a lot of international marathon competitions.
>
> Their results are reflected in my own experence. Even though I am
> known as "The Laziest Man in Dallas, Texas" ( ask my ex-wife)and have
> been eating a high-fat, high caloeie diet for twenty years, I have a
> 7% body-fat content and extremely low cholesterol and tryglyceride
> levels. Multiple studies have found very little statistical
> correlation between exercise and weight or cholesterol ( see Lipitor
> TV ads).
>
> Ray Audette
> Author "NeanderThin
> www.NeanderThin.com

As a member of the National Weight Control Registry, and someone who has
examined virtually every long term weight loss study, their remains
not one replicated long term weight loss clinical treatment other than
gastric surgery.

Beach Runner > wrote in message . com>...
> As a member of the National Weight Control Registry, and someone who has
> examined virtually every long term weight loss study, their remains
> not one replicated long term weight loss clinical treatment other than
> gastric surgery.

Speaking of quackery:
[from another group]

"Yet I have been a member of a low-carb newsgroup for many years now, and
quite a few of the folks I know there who have reached and maintained their
weight loss goals with a low carb diet have *tried* to register with the
so-called National Weight Control Registry listed above. But to be listed
with them you have to fill out a questionnaire regarding your diet. And to a
person every single one of them said that the questionnaire was so heavily
weighted towards a very low-fat and high-carb diet that there was no way a
low-carbing person could really even fill out the form accurately or even
give a true picture of their diet.

And a few years ago the so-called National Weight Control Registry came out
with a report widely touted in the US media at the time, saying they had
gone through all the people on their records and did not have *one single
instance* of a person who had ever successfully lost weight with a low carb
diet recorded on their rolls. Yet at the time I knew personally of at least
4 low-carbers who *had* persisted in registering with them, despite the
difficulties with the questionnaire, and had tried as hard as they could to
explain that it was a low carb diet they had used. So where were these
people's records when the NWCR insisted they had never had a single instance
of a successful low-carb dieter?

It does make me leery of some of their quacky claims.]
--

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

Remember that the National Weight Control Registry is a study in
statistical outliers. It is thus not a clinical treatment in long term
weight loss.

Ray Audette wrote:

> Beach Runner > wrote in message . com>...
>
>>As a member of the National Weight Control Registry, and someone who has
>> examined virtually every long term weight loss study, their remains
>>not one replicated long term weight loss clinical treatment other than
>>gastric surgery.
>
>
> Speaking of quackery:
> [from another group]
>
> "Yet I have been a member of a low-carb newsgroup for many years now, and
> quite a few of the folks I know there who have reached and maintained their
> weight loss goals with a low carb diet have *tried* to register with the
> so-called National Weight Control Registry listed above. But to be listed
> with them you have to fill out a questionnaire regarding your diet. And to a
> person every single one of them said that the questionnaire was so heavily
> weighted towards a very low-fat and high-carb diet that there was no way a
> low-carbing person could really even fill out the form accurately or even
> give a true picture of their diet.
>
> And a few years ago the so-called National Weight Control Registry came out
> with a report widely touted in the US media at the time, saying they had
> gone through all the people on their records and did not have *one single
> instance* of a person who had ever successfully lost weight with a low carb
> diet recorded on their rolls. Yet at the time I knew personally of at least
> 4 low-carbers who *had* persisted in registering with them, despite the
> difficulties with the questionnaire, and had tried as hard as they could to
> explain that it was a low carb diet they had used. So where were these
> people's records when the NWCR insisted they had never had a single instance
> of a successful low-carb dieter?
>
> It does make me leery of some of their quacky claims.]
> --
>
> Ray Audette
> Author "NeanderThin"
> www.NeanderThin.com

John Coleman wrote:
> "The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.

YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
science.

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> John Coleman wrote:
> > "The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>
> YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
> science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
> science.

I am formally trained and qualified in computer science, and self taught on
philosophy of science, biochemistry and evolutionary theory, with a
smattering of microbiology.

No amount of your ad homini nonsense props up paleo diet bunk. Your various
critiques of veganism are puerile rubbish.

The Paleo Diet cult has nothing scientific to credit it, that is why you
post insults and not the necessary facts.

The facts a
1) paleo peoples had poor longevity - in some examples only to around 25
years
2) there is no evidence that the paleo diet is healthy, no medical records
of paleo people, no way of empirical testing
3) modern hunter gatherers are not healthy and don't live well into old age,
they are very susceptable to infections - 50% die before 40 years of age,
and many in childhood
4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being herbivores,
there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products
5) asserting that humans must have adapted to the paleo diet because they
did it, is fallacious

Of course none of that concerns the party faithfull.

John

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> John Coleman wrote:
> > "The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>
> YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
> science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
> science.

I am formally trained and qualified in computer science, and self taught on
philosophy of science, biochemistry and evolutionary theory, with a
smattering of microbiology.

No amount of your ad homini nonsense props up paleo diet bunk. Your various
critiques of veganism are puerile rubbish.

The Paleo Diet cult has nothing scientific to credit it, that is why you
post insults and not the necessary facts.

The facts a
1) paleo peoples had poor longevity - in some examples only to around 25
years
2) there is no evidence that the paleo diet is healthy, no medical records
of paleo people, no way of empirical testing
3) modern hunter gatherers are not healthy and don't live well into old age,
they are very susceptable to infections - 50% die before 40 years of age,
and many in childhood
4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being herbivores,
there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products
5) asserting that humans must have adapted to the paleo diet because they
did it, is fallacious

Of course none of that concerns the party faithfull.

John

"John Coleman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> John Coleman wrote:
>> > "The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>>
>> YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
>> science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
>> science.
>
> I am formally trained and qualified in computer science, and self taught
> on
> philosophy of science, biochemistry and evolutionary theory, with a
> smattering of microbiology.
=======================
Which obviously is time you have wasted.

>
> No amount of your ad homini nonsense props up paleo diet bunk. Your
> various
> critiques of veganism are puerile rubbish.
====================
No, they refute you vegan religion completely as a load of bunk.

>
> The Paleo Diet cult has nothing scientific to credit it, that is why you
> post insults and not the necessary facts.
>
> The facts a
> 1) paleo peoples had poor longevity - in some examples only to around 25
> years
> 2) there is no evidence that the paleo diet is healthy, no medical records
> of paleo people, no way of empirical testing
> 3) modern hunter gatherers are not healthy and don't live well into old
> age,
> they are very susceptable to infections - 50% die before 40 years of age,
> and many in childhood
> 4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being herbivores,
> there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products
> 5) asserting that humans must have adapted to the paleo diet because they
> did it, is fallacious
>
> Of course none of that concerns the party faithfull.
==================
LOL this from the closedminded religious dogma of veganism....


>
> John
>
>

"John Coleman" > wrote


> 4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being herbivores,

Produce it.

> there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products

People in modern western cultures live longer than ever in history, chiefly
on omnivorous diets, and poor ones at that.

> 5) asserting that humans must have adapted to the paleo diet because they
> did it, is fallacious
>
> Of course none of that concerns the party faithfull.

Are you implying with that ad hominum remark that you are NOT towing the
vegan party line? It certainly appears that you are, which means you are
being hypocritical.

John Coleman wrote:

> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>John Coleman wrote:
>>
>>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
>>
>>YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
>>science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
>>science.
>
>
> I am formally trained and qualified in computer science,

That is not biology or botany or zoology. It isn't
"science" as the word is commonly understood. Cut the
shit.

> and self taught on

Haw haw haw haw haw! UNDISICPLINED, is what you mean.

John Coleman, untrained in biology, zoology, or any
other relevant science, bullshitted:

> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
> 4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being herbivores,
> there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products

Tom Billings CITES THE LITERATURE to show that there is
vast scientific evidence of human adaptation to meat
eating. You, on the other hand, merely blurt your
ideology.

John Coleman, untrained in biology, zoology, or any
other relevant science, bullshitted:

> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
> 4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being herbivores,
> there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products

Tom Billings CITES THE LITERATURE to show that there is
vast scientific evidence of human adaptation to meat
eating. You, on the other hand, merely blurt your
ideology.

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
8<
> > 4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being
herbivores,
>
> Produce it.

I am not oblidged to as the thread is about the scientific merit of the
Paleo Diet, the onus is therefore on proponents of that diet to show us
their data. However, here in summary is some of the science that clearly
indicates humans are herbivores:

1) our teeth are all adapted to fruit eating, we do not synthesise vitamin
C, also likely an outcome of herbivorous ancestry

2) humans suffer from the atherogenous diseases as do rabbits, whereas dogs
and cats do not

3) our colons are haustated, an adaptation to digest plant fibres - animal
products contain no plant fibre so they cause constipation (our colons
cannot process them properly)

4) AGP expression
Primary hyperoxaluria type 1 (PH1) is a recessive disease in which an
enzyme, alanine:glyoxylate aminotransferase (AGT), is mistargetted from the
peroxisomes where it functions in the glyoxylate pathway, to the mitochondia
(1) where it is inefficient. It can be caused by defects in at least 2
glyoxylate-metabolizing enzymes and leads to excessive urine oxalate
excretion resulting in kidney stones and/or calcification of the kidney
which can occur in childhood or adolescence. Patients used to die on average
at age 36 (2), however vitamin B12 therapy and dietary changes can help to
increase lifespan in certain forms of the disorder.

"One molecular adaptation to diet that is spread widely across Mammalia is
the differential intracellular targeting of the intermediary metabolic
enzyme alanine:glyoxylate aminotransferase (AGT), which tends to be
mitochondrial in carnivores, peroxisomal in herbivores, and both
mitochondrial and peroxisomal in omnivores." (3)

As we have seen, normal humans express the AGT gene effectively in their
peroxisomes, but when AGT is targetted to the mitchondria such as in the PH1
mutation, it cannot operate effectively. We can therefore conclude that
humans evolved through the herbivorous lineage, having evolved peroxisomes,
but not mitochondria, adapted to effective glyoxylate metabolism.

(1) J Nephrol. 1998 Mar-Apr;11 Suppl 1:8-12. The molecular basis of alanine:
glyoxylate aminotransferase mistargeting: the most common single cause of
primary hyperoxaluria type 1. Danpure CJ.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

(2) Primary Hyperoxalurias
http://mayoresearch.mayo.edu/mayo/re...eroxaluria.cfm

(3) Mol. Biol. Evol. 21(4):632-646. 2004. Differential Enzyme Targeting As
an
Evolutionary Adaptation to Herbivory in Carnivora. Birdsey GM, Lewin J,
Cunningham AA, Bruford MW and Danpure CJ.
http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/conte...ct/21/4/632?ct

Some of these points and many more are discussed in Dr McDougalls Newsletter
below*.

> > there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products
>
> People in modern western cultures live longer than ever in history,
chiefly
> on omnivorous diets, and poor ones at that.

But the point is that modern humans eat far less animal products than Paleo
peoples who struggle to make it past 40. In any case, longevity says nothing
about adaptation - modern humans are continuously ill for that long life
from diet related diseases often because of eating animal products.

> > Of course none of that concerns the party faithfull.
>
> Are you implying with that ad hominum remark that you are NOT towing the
> vegan party line? It certainly appears that you are, which means you are
> being hypocritical.

I am asserting the fact that the existence of extensive scientific evidence
of human herbivory is ignored by the Paleo Diet party faithful (they must
discredit all such claims), and their complete absense of any scientific
facts in their favour is also ignored. All we have from them are some
logical fallacies and unsupported claims.

John

* Meat in the Human Diet - July 2003 The McDougall Newsletter
www.drmcdougall.com

Human beings have been consuming meat as part of their diet for most of
their existence and will likely continue this behavior until the last living
animal is gone from the earth. However, public awareness of meat-associated
health hazards, such as heart attacks, colon cancer, and fatal E. coli
bacterial infections, has caused great concern and shifts in many people's
eating habits. The number of vegetarians has been growing worldwide,
especially among better-educated and younger people. An astonishing
contradiction to this trend is today's most popular weight loss diet - the
Atkins Diet - almost entirely meat. Obviously, there is still much
disagreement and confusion.

There is no more important question to be answered for mankind than, "What
is the proper diet for human beings?" What is the diet that allows us to
look, feel, and function at our best? Not just to survive or lose weight. Is
it vegetarian? Does it contain meat? How much meat? There must be a correct
answer. Just like there is one diet best for horses, one for cats, one for
dogs, and one for each kind of bird - there must be one diet best for
people.

Why have we not discovered this diet? It is certainly not because of lack of
interest.

Russell Henry Chittenden, the father of American biochemistry and professor
of physiological chemistry at Yale Medical School, wrote, a century ago
(1904), "We hear on all sides widely divergent views regarding the needs of
the body, as to the extent and character of food requirements, contradictory
statements as to the relative merits of animal and vegetable foods; indeed,
there is a great lack of agreement regarding many of the fundamental
questions that constantly arise in any consideration of the nutrition of the
human body." You would think that after so many years of investigation using
the latest scientific methods and employing modern technology that this
matter of such grave importance would have been settled beyond a doubt.
Coexistence today of enthusiastic advocates of "all meat" and "no meat"
diets, and everything in between, proves this matter is far from settled.

I Believe, the Less Meat, the Better

Over my past 25 years of medical practice I have taken the position that
meat at most should be considered a delicacy, reserved for consumption on
special occasions by healthy people. The consequence of this belief is my
patients lose excess weight and become healthy - and stay this way for a
long lifetime. Regardless of how much others may argue the merits of their
opinions on the best diet (supported, of course, by all the latest "facts"),
they do not have the same glowing outcomes with their patients - I've seen
the consequences. For me, as a practicing doctor, the bottom line is patient
results. Fortunately, there is an overwhelming amount of undeniable
scientific data and observations clearly supporting my conclusions. I will
share this information with you.

Should We Follow Our Ancestors' Diets?

Many scientists use the diet of our ancestors as the justification for what
we should eat today. That may be a useful approach, but which ancestors are
we to follow? Differences of opinion arise because throughout human history
people have consumed a wide variety of foods. The early ancestors of modern
humans, from at least 4 million years ago, followed diets almost exclusively
of plant-foods. Beginning at least 250,000 years ago, many of the
hunter-gatherer societies consumed meat as a large part of their diet.1
However, more recently, over the past 12,000 years of agricultural
development, people's diets have been mostly based upon starches, like rice
in Asia, corn in North America, potatoes in western parts of South America,
wheat in Europe and Northern Africa. In terms of the time line of evolution,
12,000 years, and even 250,000 years, is only a brief moment.

Out of the Garden of Eden

The Bible story of Adam and Eve's eviction from the Garden of Eden is
closely analogous to the actual shift from early plant-eating humans to
hunter-gatherers.2 While in the Garden God said, "I give you every
seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has
fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Upon expulsion humans
were instructed by God, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food."

For the most part hunter-gatherers (i.e., exiles from the Garden) had a
subsistence standard of living, eating foods that extended from one extreme
to the other in proportions of plant vs. animal foods - from the raw flesh
and fat of marine mammals - the Arctic Eskimos - to diets composed largely
of wild plants of the Western Desert - Australian Aborigines.3
Hunter-gatherers took advantage of any dependable sources of food from their
wild local environments. Because of the ease and dependability (compared to
obtaining animals), gathering fruits and vegetables was a primary source of
food for most hunter-gatherer societies - the emphasis on hunting increased
in higher latitudes because of plant scarcity.4

Undoubtedly, all of these diets were adequate to support growth and life to
an age of successful reproduction. To bear and raise offspring you only need
to live for 20 to 30 years, and fortuitously, the average life expectancy
for these people was just that. The few populations of hunter-gatherers
surviving into the 21st Century are confined to the most remote regions of
our planet - like the Arctic and the jungles of South America and Africa -
some of the most challenging places to manage to survive. Their life
expectancy is also limited to 25 to 30 years and infant mortality is 40% to
50%.5 Huntergatherer societies fortunately did survive, but considering
their arduous struggle and short lifespan, I would not rank them among
successful societies.

The Importance of Meat

So why has meat been an important part of the diet of so many of these
hunter-gatherer societies?6 Throughout human history, especially before the
development of agriculture-based living, acquiring food for survival was a
full time job - food scarcity, even starvation, plagued most of these
people, at least some of the time. Meat represented a gold mine of
concentrated calories and nutrients whenever it was obtained. For those
societies who found a plentiful supply, survival on a meat-based diet simply
attests to the resilience and adaptability of the human frame.

Because many hunter-gatherer societies obtained most of their calories from
the fat of meat does not mean meat is the ideal diet for modern people.
Almost every scientist readily admits that the composition of wild game
available to our ancestors was far different from the grain-fed domesticated
high-fat meat people eat these days. Furthermore, even if humans have been
eating meat for centuries, it has not been with the ease that wealthy
Westerners acquire it today.

Without refrigeration and other means of preserving meat in a near fresh
state, consumption was limited to within a few days of the kill - until the
meat spoiled. (With the advent of fire people learned to preserve meat by
smoking it.) During difficult times meat provided more benefits than harms,
but in a society where food is plentiful and life is physically easy, meat
can become a serious health hazard. A traditional Arctic Eskimo, living in a
subfreezing climate, could expend 6000 calories and more a day just to keep
warm and hunt for food. The high-fat animal food sources - fish, walrus,
whale, and seal - from his local environment were the most practical means
of meeting the demands of those rigorous surroundings. Modern Eskimos living
in heated houses and driving around in their climate-controlled SUVs, still
consuming a high-meat diet, have become some of the fattest and sickest
people on earth. Of course, they now use a "green lure" (a $10 bill) to
catch their fish (sandwich).

Our Anatomy and Physiology Provide the Undeniable Evidence3,4,8,9-13

Evolution in the animal kingdom dates back hundreds of millions of years and
the evolution of humans began over 4 million years ago. The ancestors of
modern humans were believed to live primarily on plant foods, eating wild
fruits, leaves, roots, and other high quality plant parts with a few animal
foods in their daily diet. These pre-humans ate like our nearest primate
relatives, the apes of today.3 Now, biologists at Wayne State University
School of Medicine in Detroit, Michigan, provide new genetic evidence that
lineages of chimpanzees and humans diverged so recently that chimps should
be reclassified as members of our genus Homo, along with Neanderthals, and
all other human-like fossil species.7 "We humans appear as only slightly
remodeled chimpanzee-like apes," says the study.

Most apes living today eat essentially as vegetarians - consuming a diet
composed of the fruits, leaves, flowers, and bark, with sporadic consumption
of very small amounts of insect material (like termites) and less commonly,
small animals.8 These meat-eating activities may be purely social in nature
and unrelated to any real nutritional needs.

Behavior can be changed overnight, but our anatomy and physiology only
evolve from selective pressures of the environment over millions of years.
Food is the strongest contact with our environment. Therefore, the present
state of the human body accurately reflects how our kind has eaten during
most of our human and pre-human existence. These indisputable anatomical and
physiological characteristics clearly identify the best diet for people
today.

We Have the Mouth of a Plant-Eater

"Johnny, eat your beef, you have to get your protein." Worried about her
growing child, my mother said this to me at almost every dinnertime. "But
Mother, I can't chew it," I tried to explain. To make her happy I mashed the
bite-size piece of roast beef with my teeth into a leathery lump, still too
big to comfortably swallow. Eventually, jaw tired, wanting to be excused
from the table, I slipped the remains under the edge of my plate.All this
distress could have easily been avoided if my mother had known enough truth
about good nutrition to simply say "Of course you can't chew that meat - you
have the wrong kind of teeth, Johnny - give it to the dog."

Our dentition evolved for processing starches, fruits, and vegetables, not
tearing and masticating flesh. Our oft-cited "canine" teeth are not at all
comparable to the sharp teeth of true carnivores. I lecture to over 10,000
dentists, dental hygienists, and oral specialists every year, and I always
ask them to show me the "canine" teeth in a person's mouth - those that
resemble a cat's or dog's teeth - I am still waiting to be shown the first
example of a sharply pointed canine tooth.

If you have any doubt of the truth of this observation then go look in the
mirror right now - you may have learned to call your 4 corner front teeth,
"canine teeth" - but in no way do they resemble the sharp, jagged, blades of
a true carnivore - your corner teeth are short, blunted, and flat on top (or
slightly rounded at most). Nor do they ever function in the manner of true
canine teeth. Have you ever observed someone purposely favoring these teeth
while tearing off a piece of steak or chewing it? Nor have I. The lower jaw
of a meat-eating animal has very little side-to-side motion - it is fixed to
open and close, which adds strength and stability to its powerful bite. Like
other plant-eating animals our jaw can move forwards and backwards, and
side-to-side, as well as open and close, for biting off pieces of plant
matter, and then grinding them into smaller pieces with our flat molars.

In a failed attempt to chew and swallow pieces of food, usually meat,
approximately 4,000 people die each year in the U.S.14 They choke on
inadequately masticated chunks that become stuck in their throats. The
Heimlich maneuver was specifically designed to save the lives of people
dying from these "café coronaries." 14.

Our Digestive System Assimilates Plant Foods4,8

From our lips to our anus our digestive system has evolved to efficiently
process plant foods. Digestion begins in the mouth with a salivary enzyme,
called alpha-amylase (ptyalin), whose sole purpose is to help digest complex
carbohydrates found in plant foods into simple sugars. There are no
carbohydrates in meats of any kind (except for a smidgen of glycogen), so a
true carnivore has no need for this enzyme - their salivary glands do not
synthesize alpha amylase.

The stomach juices of a meat-eating animal are very concentrated in acid.
The purpose of this acid is to efficiently break down the muscle and bone
materials swallowed in large quantities into the stomachs of meat-eaters.
Digestion of starches, vegetables and fruits is accomplished efficiently
with the much lower concentrations of stomach acid found in the stomachs of
people, and other plant-eaters.

The human intestine is long and coiled, much like that of apes, cows, and
horses. This configuration makes digestion slow, allowing time to break down
and absorb the nutrients from plant food sources. The intestine of a
carnivore, like a cat, is short, straight, and tubular. This allows for very
rapid digestion of flesh and excretion of the remnants quickly before they
putrefy (rot). There are also marked sacculations (many sac-like
enlargements that bulge out along our large intestine), like those found in
all apes, which strongly supports the view that we are primarily
plant-eating animals. Overall, the intestines of meat-eaters are noticeably
simpler than ours.

Cholesterol Overwhelms a Plant-eater's Liver15

Cholesterol is only found in animal foods - no plant contains cholesterol.
The liver and biliary system of a meat-eating animal has an unlimited
capacity to process and excrete cholesterol from its body - it goes out, in
the bile, passing through the bile ducts and gallbladder, into the
intestine, and finally, out with the stool. For example, you can feed a dog
or cat pure egg yolks all day long and they will easily get rid of all of it
and never suffer from a backup of cholesterol. Humans, like other
plant-eating animals, have livers with very limited capacities for
cholesterol removal - they can remove only a little more than they make for
themselves for their own bodies - and as a result, most people have great
difficulty eliminating the extra cholesterol they take in from eating animal
products. This apparent "inefficiency" is because humans have evolved on a
diet of mostly plant foods (containing no cholesterol), and therefore, they
never required a highly efficient cholesterol-eliminating biliary system.
The resulting cholesterol buildup, when people eat meat, causes deposits in
the arteries (atherosclerosis), in the skin under the eyes (xanthelasma),
and in the tendons. Bile supersaturated with cholesterol forms gallstones
(over 90% of gallstones are made of cholesterol). About half of all
middle-aged women who live on the Western diet have cholesterol gallstones.
(See my April and May 2002 Newsletters.)

Our Requirements are for Plant Nutrients4,8

To believe we require the body parts of other animals in our diet for good
health supposes the human body evolved over many millions of years on a diet
predominantly of meat - and deficient in plants. This is not what is seen
when the nutritional requirements of people are examined.

When plants have been for eons a plentiful and reliable part of the diet, an
animal can become dependent upon specific nutrients found in these foods.
For example, ascorbic acid - found preformed and ready to use in plant
foods - is called vitamin C in the diet of people. Insufficient amounts of
this vitamin cause scurvy. Vitamins are essential micronutrients that cannot
be synthesized by the body; and therefore, must be in the food. Because
ascorbic acid has not been reliably available to them, meat-eating animals
have retained the ability to synthesize ascorbic acid from basic raw
materials found in their meat diet - therefore, it is not a vitamin for
them. (In other words it is not "vital" or essential to be preformed in
their food supply.)

Because humans have lived throughout most of their evolution on diets with
very little animal matter, they have had to develop or retain the ability to
synthesize some substances they need that are abundantly found in meat. For
example, humans, and other plant-eating animals, have the ability to make
vitamin A from a precursor found in large quantities in plants, called
beta-carotene. Carnivores cannot utilize beta-carotene as a precursor of
vitamin A. They have no need to; throughout their evolution they have always
had a plentiful supply of preformed vitamin A (Retinol) found in the meat.
Carnivores have also lost the ability to synthesize Niacin, which is
plentiful in meat. Remember, efficiency is necessary for survival of a
species and it is inefficient to keep manufacturing processes in the body
that are useless.

Our Instincts Are for Plants

For most enlightened people in modern Western nations, the idea of chasing
down and killing an animal is revolting; and the thought of consuming that
freshly killed flesh is repulsive. (And to eat decaying flesh, as a vulture
does, would be next to impossible.) Even when meat is cooked, most people
are disgusted by the thought of eating a slice of horse, kangaroo, rat, or
cat. Cows, chickens and pigs are acceptable to most Westerners only because
we have eaten them all of our lives. Yet even then, to make meat palatable,
its true nature must be covered up with a strong flavored sauce made with
salt, sugar, and/or spices - like sweet and sour, marinara, barbecue, or
steak sauce. Few people enjoy boiled beef or chicken.

People do not have a negative reaction to unfamiliar fruits and vegetables.
Consider, I could ask you to try an unfamiliar "star fruit" from the tropics
for the first time and you would eat and enjoy it without hesitation. Why?
Because your natural instincts are to eat fruits and vegetables.

You Should Eat Like You Act

So many human characteristics clearly say we evolved to be primarily
plant-eaters. Do you want to read more? Our hands are made for gathering
plants, not ripping flesh. We cool ourselves by sweating, like most other
plant-eating animals. Carnivores cool their bodies by panting. We drink our
beverages by sipping, not lapping like a dog or cat.

The exhaustive factual comparisons of our body traits with that of other
animals prove we have evolved over eons in an environment of plant-based
foods - the only real contradiction is our behavior. The results of our
aberrant behavior can be catastrophic - let me begin to explain that harm
with one example about macho men.

A Man's Behavior Contradicts His Anatomy

Men traditionally have been the hunters who carry back the slain animals to
feed the village - you know, "they bring home the bacon." Scientific
research confirms meat is viewed as a superior masculine food.16 The acts of
killing, butchering and eating animals are associated with power,
aggression, virility, strength, and passion - attributes desired by most
men - and eating meat has long been associated with aggressive behaviors and
violent personalities. Men say they need more, and they do eat more meat,
especially more red meat, than women. However, based on male anatomy, real
men should be vegetarians.

Human males have seminal vesicles - no other meat-eating animal has these
important collecting-pouches as part of their reproductive anatomy. 17 The
seminal vesicles are paired sacculated pouches connected to the prostate,
located at the base of the bladder. They collect fluids made by the prostate
that nourish and transport the sperm. Ejaculation occurs when the seminal
vesicles and prostate empty into the urethra of the penis. In many ways
ejaculation is the ultimate act of male performance - seminal vesicles are
essential organs for proper male function and therefore, they should tell us
much about his true nature.

His Aberrant Behavior Ruins His Potency

Eating meat diminishes sexual performance and masculinity. The male hormone
testosterone that determines sexual development and interest has been found
to be 13 % higher in vegans (a strict plant diet - no animal products of any
kind) than in meat-eaters.18 Meat-eaters are likely to become impotent
because of damage caused to the artery system that supplies their penis with
the blood that causes an erection.19 Erectile dysfunction is more often seen
in men with elevated cholesterol levels 20 and high levels of LDL "bad"
cholesterol21- both conditions related to habitual meateating.

The greatest threat to a man's virility is from the high levels of
environmental chemicals concentrated in modern meats of all kinds. These
chemicals interfere with the actions of testosterone. Decreased ejaculate
volume, low sperm count, shortened sperm life, poor sperm motility, genetic
damage, and infertility result from eating meat with estrogen-like
environmental chemicals.22 These chemicals in the meat, eaten by his mother,
influence the development of the male fetus, increasing the risk that the
baby boy will be born with a smaller penis and testicles, as well as
deformity of the penis (hypospadia) and an undescended testicle
(cryptorchism). Estimates are 89% to 99% of the chemical intake into our
body is from our food, and most of this is from foods high on the food
chain - meat, poultry, fish, and dairy products.23,24

A Deviant Diet Causes Deadly Diseases

The enlightened diet for humans today is centered around starchy plant foods
with the addition of fruits and vegetables - the use of clean meat is
limited to special occasions - like Thanksgiving and Christmas - and
consumed only by healthy people.25 If your diet deviates too far from that
which you evolved on over eons of time then you will likely suffer serious
consequences - these are the chronic diseases affecting people living on the
Western diet.

Next month I will continue this discussion of the health problems produced
when we attempt to live with meat as a significant part of our diet.


References:

1) Wood B. Human evolution: We are what we ate. Nature 1999;400:219 - 220

2) Bible (New International Version): Genesis 1:29 and 3:19

3) Milton K. Back to basics: why foods of wild primates have relevance for
modern human health. Nutrition. 2000 Jul-

Aug;16(7-8):480-3.

4) Milton K. Hunter-gatherer diets-a different perspective. Am J Clin Nutr.
2000 Mar;71(3):665-7.

5) Nestle M. Animal v. plant foods in human diets and health: is the
historical record unequivocal? Proc Nutr Soc.

1999 May;58(2):211-8.

6) Cordain I. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: meat-based,
yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr.

2002 Mar;56 Suppl 1:S42-52.

7) Chimpanzees are also in the Homo species:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...impanzees.html

8) Milton K. A hypothesis to explain the role of meat-eating in human
evolution. Evol Anthropol 1999;8:11-21.

9) W. Collens, "Phylogenetic Aspects of the Cause of Human Atherosclerotic
Disease," Circulation (suppl II) 31-32 (1965): II-7.

10) C. Prosser, Comparative Animal Physiology , 2nd ed. Philadelphia: W. B.
Saunders, 1961, p. 116

11) E. Nasset, Movements of the small intestine, P. Bard, Medical
Physiology, 11 ed. C. V. Mosby, 1961, St. Louis, p.440

12) What's Wrong with Eating Meat? Ananda Marga Publications, 1977

13) Mills M. The Comparative Anatomy of Eating
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2062/ana.HTML

14) H. Heimlich, "A Life-Saving Maneuver to Prevent Food-Choking," JAMA 234
(1975): 398-401.

15) Dietschy J. Regulation of cholesterol metabolism. 3. N Engl J Med. 1970
May 28;282(22):1241-9.

16) Roos G. Men, masculinity and food: interviews with Finnish carpenters
and engineers. Appetite. 2001

Aug;37(1):47-56.

17) Coffey D. Similarities of prostate and breast cancer: Evolution, diet,
and estrogens. Urology 57(4 Suppl 1):31-8, 2001.

18) Allen NE. Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal
bioavailable androgens in vegan men. Br J Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7.

19) Feldman HA. Erectile dysfunction and coronary risk factors: prospective
results from the Massachusetts male aging study. Prev Med. 2000
Apr;30(4):328-38.

20) Bodie J. Laboratory evaluations of erectile dysfunction: an evidence
based approach. J Urol. 2003 Jun;169(6):2262-4.

21) Walczak MK Prevalence of cardiovascular risk factors in erectile
dysfunction. J Gend Specif Med. 2002 Nov-Dec;5(6):19-24.

22) Rozati R . Role of environmental estrogens in the deterioration of male
factor fertility. Fertil Steril. 2002 Dec;78(6):1187-94.

23) Duarte-Davidson R. Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) in the UK
population: estimated intake, exposure and body burden. Sci Total Environ.
1994 Jul 11;151(2):131-52.

24) Liem AK. Exposure of populations to dioxins and related compounds. Food
Addit Contam. 2000 Apr;17(4):241-59.

25) Segasothy M. Vegetarian diet: panacea for modern lifestyle? Q J Med
92:531-544, 1999.

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> John Coleman wrote:
>
> > "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> >
> >>John Coleman wrote:
> >>
> >>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
> >>
> >>YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
> >>science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
> >>science.
> >
> >
> > I am formally trained and qualified in computer science,
>
> That is not biology or botany or zoology. It isn't
> "science" as the word is commonly understood. Cut the
> shit.

All scientific fields incorporate principles of science that are often
transferrable to other fields.

> > and self taught on
>
> Haw haw haw haw haw! UNDISICPLINED, is what you mean.

Unqualified perhaps, but I do not need formal qualifications to report the
findings of qualified scientists.

Some of my bibliography is below, perhaps you would share yours so we can
asses your credibility.

This is all your digression though, you have posted no scientific defence of
the Paleo Diet.

John
---

Bibliography
Aiello, L and Dean, C., 1996, An Introduction To Human Evolutionary Anatomy,
Academic Press.

Austad, Steven N., Why We Age , John Wiley & Sonds, Inc., 1997

Angier, Natalie, Woman, An Intimate Geography, Virago Press, 1999

Bacq, Z.M., Fundamendals of Biochemical Pharmacology, Pergamon Press, 1971

Bagemihl, B., Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural
Diversity, St Martin's Press (NY)

Bolander-Gouaille, Christina, Focus on Homocysteine and the Vitamins
Involved in its Metabolism, Springer, 2002

Campbell, Dr. C. A. R., 1925, Bats, Mosquitoes and Dollars, Harvard Medical
Library, Boston USA.

Cannon, G., Food and Health: The Experts Agree, Consumers' Association, 2
Marylebone Road, London NW1 4DF.

Chivers, D. J. et al., 1984, Food Acquisition And Processing In Primates,
Plenum Press, NY.

Chivers, D.J, Langer, P., 1994, The Digestive System In Mammals: Food Form
And Function, Camb. Uni. Press, p.25.

Chalmers, A.F., What is this thing called Science?, Open Uni. Press, 1980

Dawkins, R., The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, The Extended Phenotype,
River Out Of Eden, various publishers

Deacon T, 1997, The Symbolic Species, Penguin Books, pp. 165-174.

Dennett, Daniel C., Darwins Dangerous Idea, Penguin Books, 1996

Dressler, D. and Huntingdon Potter, H., Discovering Enzymes, Scientific
American Library, New York, distributed by W H Freeman and Company, 41
Madison Avenue, New York 10010, & 20 Beaumont Street, Oxford OX1 2NQ England
..

Gislason, S. J. MD, Mechanisms of Brain Disturbances The Brain Book,
Environmed Research Inc. 502 -2109 Bellevue Ave., West Vancouver B.C. Canada
V7V 1C2

Gould, S.J., 1992, Life's Grandeur: The spread of excellence from Plato to
Darwin, Vintage

Hamilton/Gropper, The Biochemistry of Human Nutriton, West Publishing Co.,
1987

Horton/Moran/Ochs/Rawn/Scrimgeour Principles of Biochemistry 2nd Ed.,
Prentice-Hall International, Inc.

Hudson, B.J.F. Ed., The Biocheistry of Food Proteins, Elsevier Applied
Science, 1996

Jared Diamond, The Rise And Fallof The Third Chimpanzee, Vintage Science,
1992

Jones, Martin and Pilbeam, 1992, The Cambridge Encyclopedia Of Human
Evolution, Camb. Uni. Press

Leakey R, 1994, The Origin of Humankind, Phoenix.

Lewin, Roger, 1993, Human Evolution: An Illustrated Introduction 3rd Ed.,
Blackwell Scientific Publications.

Lewontin, R., 2000, It Ain't Necessarily So, Granta.

MacGregor, G.A. and deWardner, H.E., Salt, Diet 7 Health, Camb. Uni. Press,
1998,/p>

Mervyn, L. B.Sc., PH.D., C.Chem F.R.S.C, Thorsons Complete Guide to Vitamins
& Minerals, Published by Thorsons available via HarperCollins web site.

Murray/Granner/Mayes/Rodwell Harper's Biochemistry 24 Ed., Prentice-Hall
International, Inc.

Ridley, Matt, The Red Queen, Penguin, 2000

Rowe, N., The Pictorial Guide to the Living Primates, Pogonias Press, 1996

Sapolsky, Robert M., Junk Food Monkeys, Headline Book Publishing, 1998

Stevens, C. Edward, Hume, Ian D., Comparative Physiology of The Vertibrate
Digestive System, 2nd Ed., Camb. Uni. Press, 1995

Tattersall, Ian, Becoming Human, Oxford Uni. Press, 2000

Tuttle, R.H., 1986, Apes of the World; Their Social Behaviour Communication,
Mentality and Ecology.

Waal, F. de & Lanting F., Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, University of Calif.
Press.

Walker, M. J, 1994, Dirty Medicine, Slingshot Publications, BM Box 8314,
London, WC1N 3XX.

Widdowson E.M., Whiten, A., Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences,
Vol. 334 p. 159-295, 1270, The Royal Society, 1991

Wilson, Edward O., In Search Of Nature, Penguin Science, 1998

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> John Coleman wrote:
>
> > "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> >
> >>John Coleman wrote:
> >>
> >>>"The Paleo Diet" also has no scientific cred. It's rubbish.
> >>
> >>YOU have no scientific "cred", Coleman, you goddamned
> >>science-incompetent. You have no training whatever in
> >>science.
> >
> >
> > I am formally trained and qualified in computer science,
>
> That is not biology or botany or zoology. It isn't
> "science" as the word is commonly understood. Cut the
> shit.

All scientific fields incorporate principles of science that are often
transferrable to other fields.

> > and self taught on
>
> Haw haw haw haw haw! UNDISICPLINED, is what you mean.

Unqualified perhaps, but I do not need formal qualifications to report the
findings of qualified scientists.

Some of my bibliography is below, perhaps you would share yours so we can
asses your credibility.

This is all your digression though, you have posted no scientific defence of
the Paleo Diet.

John
---

Bibliography
Aiello, L and Dean, C., 1996, An Introduction To Human Evolutionary Anatomy,
Academic Press.

Austad, Steven N., Why We Age , John Wiley & Sonds, Inc., 1997

Angier, Natalie, Woman, An Intimate Geography, Virago Press, 1999

Bacq, Z.M., Fundamendals of Biochemical Pharmacology, Pergamon Press, 1971

Bagemihl, B., Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural
Diversity, St Martin's Press (NY)

Bolander-Gouaille, Christina, Focus on Homocysteine and the Vitamins
Involved in its Metabolism, Springer, 2002

Campbell, Dr. C. A. R., 1925, Bats, Mosquitoes and Dollars, Harvard Medical
Library, Boston USA.

Cannon, G., Food and Health: The Experts Agree, Consumers' Association, 2
Marylebone Road, London NW1 4DF.

Chivers, D. J. et al., 1984, Food Acquisition And Processing In Primates,
Plenum Press, NY.

Chivers, D.J, Langer, P., 1994, The Digestive System In Mammals: Food Form
And Function, Camb. Uni. Press, p.25.

Chalmers, A.F., What is this thing called Science?, Open Uni. Press, 1980

Dawkins, R., The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, The Extended Phenotype,
River Out Of Eden, various publishers

Deacon T, 1997, The Symbolic Species, Penguin Books, pp. 165-174.

Dennett, Daniel C., Darwins Dangerous Idea, Penguin Books, 1996

Dressler, D. and Huntingdon Potter, H., Discovering Enzymes, Scientific
American Library, New York, distributed by W H Freeman and Company, 41
Madison Avenue, New York 10010, & 20 Beaumont Street, Oxford OX1 2NQ England
..

Gislason, S. J. MD, Mechanisms of Brain Disturbances The Brain Book,
Environmed Research Inc. 502 -2109 Bellevue Ave., West Vancouver B.C. Canada
V7V 1C2

Gould, S.J., 1992, Life's Grandeur: The spread of excellence from Plato to
Darwin, Vintage

Hamilton/Gropper, The Biochemistry of Human Nutriton, West Publishing Co.,
1987

Horton/Moran/Ochs/Rawn/Scrimgeour Principles of Biochemistry 2nd Ed.,
Prentice-Hall International, Inc.

Hudson, B.J.F. Ed., The Biocheistry of Food Proteins, Elsevier Applied
Science, 1996

Jared Diamond, The Rise And Fallof The Third Chimpanzee, Vintage Science,
1992

Jones, Martin and Pilbeam, 1992, The Cambridge Encyclopedia Of Human
Evolution, Camb. Uni. Press

Leakey R, 1994, The Origin of Humankind, Phoenix.

Lewin, Roger, 1993, Human Evolution: An Illustrated Introduction 3rd Ed.,
Blackwell Scientific Publications.

Lewontin, R., 2000, It Ain't Necessarily So, Granta.

MacGregor, G.A. and deWardner, H.E., Salt, Diet 7 Health, Camb. Uni. Press,
1998,/p>

Mervyn, L. B.Sc., PH.D., C.Chem F.R.S.C, Thorsons Complete Guide to Vitamins
& Minerals, Published by Thorsons available via HarperCollins web site.

Murray/Granner/Mayes/Rodwell Harper's Biochemistry 24 Ed., Prentice-Hall
International, Inc.

Ridley, Matt, The Red Queen, Penguin, 2000

Rowe, N., The Pictorial Guide to the Living Primates, Pogonias Press, 1996

Sapolsky, Robert M., Junk Food Monkeys, Headline Book Publishing, 1998

Stevens, C. Edward, Hume, Ian D., Comparative Physiology of The Vertibrate
Digestive System, 2nd Ed., Camb. Uni. Press, 1995

Tattersall, Ian, Becoming Human, Oxford Uni. Press, 2000

Tuttle, R.H., 1986, Apes of the World; Their Social Behaviour Communication,
Mentality and Ecology.

Waal, F. de & Lanting F., Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, University of Calif.
Press.

Walker, M. J, 1994, Dirty Medicine, Slingshot Publications, BM Box 8314,
London, WC1N 3XX.

Widdowson E.M., Whiten, A., Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences,
Vol. 334 p. 159-295, 1270, The Royal Society, 1991

Wilson, Edward O., In Search Of Nature, Penguin Science, 1998

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> John Coleman, untrained in biology, zoology, or any
> other relevant science, bullshitted:
>
> > "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> >
> > 4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being
herbivores,
> > there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products
>
> Tom Billings CITES THE LITERATURE to show that there is
> vast scientific evidence of human adaptation to meat
> eating. You, on the other hand, merely blurt your
> ideology.

Billings is a statistician, he isn't even trained in computer science.

Please cite a single example of a relivant expert in the field claiming that
humans are adapted to eat meat and also providing the data.

John

John Coleman wrote:

> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>John Coleman, untrained in biology, zoology, or any
>>other relevant science, bullshitted:
>>
>>
>>>"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>>>
>>>4) there is plenty of good scientific evidence of humans being
>
> herbivores,
>
>>>there is none of any adaptation to consuming animal products
>>
>>Tom Billings CITES THE LITERATURE to show that there is
>>vast scientific evidence of human adaptation to meat
>>eating. You, on the other hand, merely blurt your
>>ideology.
>
>
> Billings is a statistician, he isn't even trained in computer science.

Statistics is a more rigorous field than computer
science. You know how to code some C++ programs; big
****ing deal.

Billings CITES THE LITERATURE that provides support for
the claim that humans are adapted to eating meat. You
can't cite anything counter to it.

I once wrote to a full professor of biology AND
anthropology at a prestigious university whose work had
been miscited here by that fatuous ****wit Lesley
('pearl','lilweed' and other nyms), and asked him if it
was true that the consensus among anthropologists and
biologists is that humans evolved as omnivores, and he
replied that it [human omnivory] is a fundamental part
of the consensus of scientific opinion. Unfortunately,
he did not grant permission to quote him.

"John Coleman" > wrote
>
> "Jay Santos" > wrote


> > Haw haw haw haw haw! UNDISICPLINED, is what you mean.
>
> Unqualified perhaps, but I do not need formal qualifications to report the
> findings of qualified scientists.

There is nothing about Macdougall's proposed diet that makes me believe it's
anything more than just one more scheme to sell books, cds and "wellness
events". Anyone who claims that all the accumulated common sense and
research of the past must be discarded in favour of a whole new regime is
highly suspect. Paleos, raw food, high carbs, veganism, all fads.

"Dutch" > wrote in message
...
8<
> There is nothing about Macdougall's proposed diet that makes me believe
it's
> anything more than just one more scheme to sell books, cds and "wellness
> events". Anyone who claims that all the accumulated common sense and
> research of the past must be discarded in favour of a whole new regime is
> highly suspect.

Challenging the exsiting dogma is the method in science. There are several
examples in the history of science where all of the exsiting knowledge was
discarded because of new facts or logic. However, in this case the "existing
dogma", i.e. eat just about anything you like, balanced diet etc... is
nothing like science or even common sense.

Common sense is nothing to do with rational debate.

John

John Coleman wrote:
> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> ...
> 8<
>
>>There is nothing about Macdougall's proposed diet that makes me believe
>
> it's
>
>>anything more than just one more scheme to sell books, cds and "wellness
>>events". Anyone who claims that all the accumulated common sense and
>>research of the past must be discarded in favour of a whole new regime is
>>highly suspect.
>
>
> Challenging the exsiting dogma is the method in science.

That's why "veganism" can never be scientific: it IS
nothing but dogma.

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
ink.net...

> Statistics is a more rigorous field than computer
> science. You know how to code some C++ programs; big
> ****ing deal.

There is more to computer science than programming - didn't you know that?

> I once wrote to a full professor of biology AND
> anthropology at a prestigious university whose work had
> been miscited here by that fatuous ****wit Lesley
> ('pearl','lilweed' and other nyms), and asked him if it
> was true that the consensus among anthropologists and
> biologists is that humans evolved as omnivores, and he
> replied that it [human omnivory] is a fundamental part
> of the consensus of scientific opinion. Unfortunately,
> he did not grant permission to quote him.

In real sciences like chemistry a category like "metalic elements" is
defined with a crystal clear definition so that we can ascribe any given
element to that category or another. There is no such scientific defintion
of "omnivory" to be able to apply because biologists and anthropologists are
not always doing real science. Human omnivory has been refuted by some
authorities, so that the issue is contentious, most evolutionists contend
that humans evolved from frugivores.

I have posted a great deal of scientific facts with references, all you have
is insults, hearsay, and you refute nothing and post no supporting evidence
AGAIN.

John

John Coleman wrote:

> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>
>>Statistics is a more rigorous field than computer
>>science. You know how to code some C++ programs; big
>>****ing deal.
>
>
> There is more to computer science than programming - didn't you know that?

There is no more to YOUR exposure to computer science
than a little bit of programming, or perhaps a little
network administration.

>
>
>>I once wrote to a full professor of biology AND
>>anthropology at a prestigious university whose work had
>>been miscited here by that fatuous ****wit Lesley
>>('pearl','lilweed' and other nyms), and asked him if it
>>was true that the consensus among anthropologists and
>>biologists is that humans evolved as omnivores, and he
>>replied that it [human omnivory] is a fundamental part
>>of the consensus of scientific opinion. Unfortunately,
>>he did not grant permission to quote him.
>
>
> [snip handwaving]

The consensus of biologists, zoologists and
anthropologists is that humans evolved as omnivores.

John Coleman wrote:

> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>
>>Statistics is a more rigorous field than computer
>>science. You know how to code some C++ programs; big
>>****ing deal.
>
>
> There is more to computer science than programming - didn't you know that?

There is no more to YOUR exposure to computer science
than a little bit of programming, or perhaps a little
network administration.

>
>
>>I once wrote to a full professor of biology AND
>>anthropology at a prestigious university whose work had
>>been miscited here by that fatuous ****wit Lesley
>>('pearl','lilweed' and other nyms), and asked him if it
>>was true that the consensus among anthropologists and
>>biologists is that humans evolved as omnivores, and he
>>replied that it [human omnivory] is a fundamental part
>>of the consensus of scientific opinion. Unfortunately,
>>he did not grant permission to quote him.
>
>
> [snip handwaving]

The consensus of biologists, zoologists and
anthropologists is that humans evolved as omnivores.

"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
ink.net...
8<
> That's why "veganism" can never be scientific: it IS
> nothing but dogma.

This thread is about Audettes book and his unsupported dogma.

John