Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all of the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all of the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to take
supplements. Thanks.

snip
Naturally (no pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them.
A good diet is a relatively recent phenonomen and we in the western world
tend to spoil it by eating too much. Food is now heavily processed and it
is easy to eat to over-indulge. In recent history, many people had poor
diets; they simply did not understand the connection between diet and health
or they were too poor to be able to afford food to sustain themselves
adequately.

In other words, shouldn't we be able to get absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? The reason
I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to take
supplements. Thanks.

Because things are "natural" it does not necessarily mean it is "good".
Famine is natural - not necessarily desirable. You probably could get all
the nutrients you need from your food if you understood enough about it -
but most of us have the occasional snack day, the day we have a take out,
the day we just don't bother much, the times we overwork or over play - and
I take supplements as an insurance, rather than to replace food.
Deb

"ta" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all
of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention
to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

I am sorry -My wife is out of town-it was along time ago in Calif- think
Adele Davis, might have started the rumblings about the soil, water,
atmosphere and our vegetables..I think that victor Vin?????guy also said
that..
Michael






The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to take
supplements. Thanks.

"ta" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all
of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention
to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

This might hlep-Eric the Programming director at our TV station-is a
vegan...
I asked him for help...
From what I was taught, you are correct, the soil is depleted of nutrients
due to innappropriate commercial use of land. Also, we thoroughly wash the
fruits and veggies, which counteracts us getting the bacteria we need that
produces B12 in our colons. I don't have specific sources, but I would
start him off on Dr. Schulze's stuff. As for books, tell him to look up
Herbert Shelton (a pioneer in natural hygiene movement in america.

Eric













The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to take
supplements. Thanks.

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message ...
"ta" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all
of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention
to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

This might hlep-Eric the Programming director at our TV station-is a
vegan...
I asked him for help...
From what I was taught, you are correct, the soil is depleted of nutrients
due to innappropriate commercial use of land. Also, we thoroughly wash the
fruits and veggies, which counteracts us getting the bacteria we need that
produces B12 in our colons. I don't have specific sources, but I would
start him off on Dr. Schulze's stuff. As for books, tell him to look up
Herbert Shelton (a pioneer in natural hygiene movement in america.

Eric













The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to take
supplements. Thanks.



This is an interesting discussion to me because I work with a
supplement manufacturer that frequently comments about the issue of
soil depletion, and why this makes it so important to take supplements
(like theirs). I've never been completely clear if that angle is
"junk science" for the sake of marketing more product, or if there's a
factual basis.

I'd be real interested to know if anyone can direct me to independent
research that backs this up factually...

Aaron

"Aaron" wrote in message
om...
"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...
"ta" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply
all
of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure
getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have
to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay
attention
to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all
the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to
address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human
food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no
pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get
absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit
on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

This might hlep-Eric the Programming director at our TV station-is a
vegan...
I asked him for help...
From what I was taught, you are correct, the soil is depleted of
nutrients
due to innappropriate commercial use of land. Also, we thoroughly wash
the
fruits and veggies, which counteracts us getting the bacteria we need
that
produces B12 in our colons. I don't have specific sources, but I would
start him off on Dr. Schulze's stuff. As for books, tell him to look up
Herbert Shelton (a pioneer in natural hygiene movement in america.

Eric













The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to
take
supplements. Thanks.



This is an interesting discussion to me because I work with a
supplement manufacturer that frequently comments about the issue of
soil depletion, and why this makes it so important to take supplements
(like theirs). I've never been completely clear if that angle is
"junk science" for the sake of marketing more product, or if there's a
factual basis.

I'd be real interested to know if anyone can direct me to independent
research that backs this up factually...

If they read the old testament, even God instructed man to use the land with
a set of rules. Organic farmers tend to follow these rules more closely
than commercial farming practices. Use the land for 6 years, and the
seventh year is a Sabbath (rest) for the land. Every seventh land Sabbath,
the land is not to be used for growing for 7 years. Organic farmers section
off their land and use half of it for 4 years and the other half the next
four years (or something like that). This allows the land to recuperate
lost nutrients and makes the fruits and veggies grow full of nutrition.

"Aaron" wrote in message
om...
"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...
"ta" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply
all
of
the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure
getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have
to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay
attention
to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all
the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to
address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human
food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no
pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get
absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit
on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

This might hlep-Eric the Programming director at our TV station-is a
vegan...
I asked him for help...
From what I was taught, you are correct, the soil is depleted of
nutrients
due to innappropriate commercial use of land. Also, we thoroughly wash
the
fruits and veggies, which counteracts us getting the bacteria we need
that
produces B12 in our colons. I don't have specific sources, but I would
start him off on Dr. Schulze's stuff. As for books, tell him to look up
Herbert Shelton (a pioneer in natural hygiene movement in america.

Eric













The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to
take
supplements. Thanks.



This is an interesting discussion to me because I work with a
supplement manufacturer that frequently comments about the issue of
soil depletion, and why this makes it so important to take supplements
(like theirs). I've never been completely clear if that angle is
"junk science" for the sake of marketing more product, or if there's a
factual basis.

I'd be real interested to know if anyone can direct me to independent
research that backs this up factually...

Aaron

Here's one source I came upon:

http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/s264.html

"ta" wrote in message . ..

"Aaron" wrote in message
om...
"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...
"ta" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all
of the necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?

A lot of planning would have to go into such a diet to assure getting
the proper RDA of vitamins and minerals. One would especially have to
pay attention to zinc, iron, and B-12. In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

because of the mass farming, pollution and stuff-there are not all the
vitamins we need in the vegetables and fruit..it is a good idea to
supplement...

Michael, you hit on a key secondary question that I was hoping to address
as well. That is, to what extent, if any, has the quality of human food
degraded to the point where supplementing is necessary? Naturally (no pun
intended) human beings didn't always have vitamin pills, nor did they
probably need them. In other words, shouldn't we be able to get absolutely
everything we need from the food we eat, and if not, why not? You hit on a
couple of reasons, but if you have any specific sources on that, I'd
appreciate it.

This might hlep-Eric the Programming director at our TV station-is a
vegan...
I asked him for help...
From what I was taught, you are correct, the soil is depleted of nutrients
due to innappropriate commercial use of land. Also, we thoroughly wash the
fruits and veggies, which counteracts us getting the bacteria we need that
produces B12 in our colons. I don't have specific sources, but I would
start him off on Dr. Schulze's stuff. As for books, tell him to look up
Herbert Shelton (a pioneer in natural hygiene movement in america.

Eric

Nature 1980 Feb 21;283(5749):781-2Related Articles, Links
Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria.
Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ.

In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are
absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in
the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin
B12 or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria
in the colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual.
However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable
microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy
southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups
of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp.,
may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin.
PMID: 7354869 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://tinyurl.com/80o6

From; The Bacterial Flora of Humans

(8) While E. coli is a consistent resident of the small intestine,
many other enteric bacteria may reside here as well, including
Klebsiella, Enterobacter and Citrobacter.

1. The normal flora synthesize and excrete vitamins in excess
of their own needs, which can be absorbed as nutrients by the host.
For example, enteric bacteria secrete Vitamin K and Vitamin B12,
and lactic acid bacteria produce certain B-vitamins.
http://www.bact.wisc.edu/Bact303/Bact303normalflora

(Antibiotics
Antibiotics of all classes disrupt normal bowel flora which
synthesize some B vitamins and Vitamin K; probiotic
supplementation needed.

Oral Contraceptives
Deplete, especially B1, B6, B12, folate.
http://www.interactionreport.org/depletion.html )

A course of human multi-strain probiotics will remedy prior disruption.

Organically grown plant foods contain higher quantities of nutrients,
including vitamin B12, - it's taken up from soil rich in B12 (w/ cobalt).
(Mozafar, A. 1994. Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with
application of organic fertilizers. Plant and Soil 167:305-311.
http://tinyurl.com/6onc ).

The B12-Cobalt Connection
...
The implication for humans subsisting on vegetarian diets are profound.
B12 synthesis by indigenous bacteria is known to occur naturally in the
human small intestine, primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut
bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce B12. In
principle then, internal B12 synthesis could fulfill our needs without any
B12 provided by diet.
...
The emerging nutritional crisis of B12 deficiency calls for remedial action in
the macro- as well as micro-environment. Broad-spectrum remineralization
of topsoils using crushed rock or dried seaweed from ocean areas known
to contain sufficient cobalt can reestablish mineral balances necessary for
healthy food supply able to fulfill our requirement, both direct and indirect,
for B12 . The cobalt connection is especially relevant to us growing our own
food, since cobalt-deficient areas likely are well-established. Beyond promoting
remineralization to the farm community, we can adopt the practice in our gardens.'

http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm .

The reason I ask is because it seems entirely "unnatural" to have to take
supplements. Thanks.

This is an interesting discussion to me because I work with a
supplement manufacturer that frequently comments about the issue of
soil depletion, and why this makes it so important to take supplements
(like theirs). I've never been completely clear if that angle is
"junk science" for the sake of marketing more product, or if there's a
factual basis.

I'd be real interested to know if anyone can direct me to independent
research that backs this up factually...

Aaron

Here's one source I came upon:

http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/s264.html

'The mineral content of organic food - Rutgers University USA

Percentage of | Quantities per 100 Grams | Trace Elements. Parts per million
Dry Weight Dry Weight Dry matter

Vegetable: Mineral Ash Calcium Magnesium Boron Manganese Iron Copper Cobalt
Snap Beans
Organic 10.45 40.5 60 73 60 227 69 0.26
Non-organic 4.04 15.5 14.8 10 2 10 3 0
Cabbage
Organic 10.38 60 43.6 42 13 94 48 0.15
Non-organic 6.12 17.5 13.6 7 2 20 0.4 0
Lettuce
Organic 24.48 71 49.3 37 169 516 60 0.19
Non-organic 7.01 16 13.1 6 1 9 3 0
Tomatoes
Organic 14.2 23 59.2 36 68 1938 53 0.63
Non-organic 6.07 4.5 4.5 3 1 1 0
0
Spinach
Organic 28.56 96 203.9 88 117 1584 32 0.25
Non-organic 12.38 47.5 46.9 12 1 49 0.3 0.2

http://www.organicnutrition.co.uk/wh...whyorganic.htm

ta wrote:
Is there any reason a proper, healthy vegan diet cannot supply all of the
necessary vitamins and minerals without supplementing?


It's possible to get everything you need from your diet, if you have a
good knowledge of nutrition, plenty of time and money and live within
easy reach of supermarkets and health food shops. Supplementing is often
easier - just beware those gelatin-filled capsules!

"Michael Balarama" wrote in message
...
Organic farmers section
off their land and use half of it for 4 years and the other half the next
four years (or something like that). This allows the land to recuperate
lost nutrients and makes the fruits and veggies grow full of nutrition.
Nonsense.
Minerals mined out of the land for decades do NOT magically reappear
out-of-nowhere when "organic" techniques are used on land that has been
abused by the commercial paradigm for decades.
Similarly, the complex microfauna/flora systems absolutely necessary for
healthy plants do NOT magically and instantly reappear when "organic"
methods are used on depleted/poisoned land.
These are strong arguments supporting supplementation.

Laurie

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.
Are you implying that meat-eaters are meticulously and consciously
planning their meals with the latest nutritional research results in hand?
Nonsense. They just waddle down to McD's and pig out.

Laurie

Larry Forti, bored (and boring) troll, wrote:

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...

In the real world,
supplementation *is* necessary since most veg-ns don't pay attention to
what they eat except to make sure their food has no animal parts.

Are you implying that meat-eaters are meticulously and consciously
planning their meals with the latest nutritional research results in hand?

No, he isn't, Larry; that's your little angry polemical
strawman. They don't need to do that, Larry. Meat
contains the things that the supplements do. All a
"meat-eater" need do is eat some reasonable portion of
meat.

Nonsense. They just waddle down to McD's and pig out.

You give away your anger and snideness too easily,
Larry, as well as your illogic. I eat meat, and I very
rarely eat at McDonald's.