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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Plug
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
C. James Strutz
 
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Default Free range Egg Question


"Plug" > wrote in message
...
> I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
> be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

eggs
> in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
> believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
> range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
> pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this.

A
> straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
> can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb


I prefer range-free eggs but I'm not absolutely discriminating. I hardly
ever eat eggs anyway.

Technically speaking, eggs are "suitable for vegetarians" whether they are
range free or not. There's nothing deceptive or misleading about advertising
that on the carton, though it does seem unnecessary to do so.


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

Plug wrote:
> I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
> be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
> in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
> believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
> range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
> pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
> straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
> can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb


I think you're confusing two separate issues: vegetarianism and AR. One
can be vegetarian without being pro-animal rights. That would include
me, though I don't eat eggs, as well as MANY others who are vegetarian
solely for personal health purposes. Hence, the company is right that
there *are* vegetarians who don't care about specific agricultural
practices that keep ARs in knotted knickers. I further think the
company's right since "vegans" comprise a minority of vegetarians and AR
is a *very* marginal pseudo-philosophy in the political spectrum (even
in the UK).

  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

C. James Strutz wrote:
<snip>
> Technically speaking, eggs are "suitable for vegetarians" whether they are
> range free or not. There's nothing deceptive or misleading about advertising
> that on the carton, though it does seem unnecessary to do so.


It may seem unnecessary, but it's a marketing ploy used with great
success for a variety of other claims. For example, just take a look at
how many things are now labelled "low-carb."

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

C. James Strutz wrote:
> "Plug" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

>
> eggs
>
>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
>>range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
>>pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this.

>
> A
>
>>straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
>>can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb

>
>
> I prefer range-free eggs but I'm not absolutely discriminating. I hardly
> ever eat eggs anyway.
>
> Technically speaking, eggs are "suitable for vegetarians" whether they are
> range free or not.


No, that's absolutely false.

1. Eggs are not vegetable matter; they are 100%
animal, including a "healthy" (huh) dose of
cholesterol. NO vegetable matter contains
cholesterol.

2. If your vegetarianism is politically motivated, i.e.
based on notions of "animal rights", then eggs
are ABSOLUTELY forbidden. On that view, they are
a product "stolen" from animals that "aras"/"vegans"
believe should not exist in the first place.

Eggs are not vegetarian - full stop.



  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Plug" > wrote in message
...
> I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
> be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

eggs
> in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
> believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
> range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
> pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this.

A
> straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
> can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb


I think you should just buy your eggs from someone else instead of trying to
fight the system. I still don't understand why so-called "non dairy
creamers" have milk products in them. That doesn't mean I can make the
companies stop calling their products that.

-Rubystars


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

Read what Cecil Adams, writer of the Straight Dope
column, has to say about "cage free" and "free range"
eggs and chickens:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031121.html


Plug wrote:
> I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
> be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
> in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
> believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
> range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
> pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
> straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
> can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb
>
>


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
C. James Strutz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> C. James Strutz wrote:


> > Technically speaking, eggs are "suitable for vegetarians" whether they

are
> > range free or not.

>
> No, that's absolutely false.
>
> 1. Eggs are not vegetable matter; they are 100%
> animal, including a "healthy" (huh) dose of
> cholesterol. NO vegetable matter contains
> cholesterol.
>
> 2. If your vegetarianism is politically motivated, i.e.
> based on notions of "animal rights", then eggs
> are ABSOLUTELY forbidden. On that view, they are
> a product "stolen" from animals that "aras"/"vegans"
> believe should not exist in the first place.
>
> Eggs are not vegetarian - full stop.


If you're implying that all vegetarians don't consume anything that contains
cholesterol then you are wrong. Vegans, ovo-vegetarians, and
lacto-vegetarians are all subsets of 'vegetarians'. Some vegetarians eat
eggs.


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

C. James Strutz wrote:
> "Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
>
>>C. James Strutz wrote:

>
>
>>>Technically speaking, eggs are "suitable for vegetarians" whether they

>
> are
>
>>>range free or not.

>>
>>No, that's absolutely false.
>>
>>1. Eggs are not vegetable matter; they are 100%
>> animal, including a "healthy" (huh) dose of
>> cholesterol. NO vegetable matter contains
>> cholesterol.
>>
>>2. If your vegetarianism is politically motivated, i.e.
>> based on notions of "animal rights", then eggs
>> are ABSOLUTELY forbidden. On that view, they are
>> a product "stolen" from animals that "aras"/"vegans"
>> believe should not exist in the first place.
>>
>>Eggs are not vegetarian - full stop.

>
>
> If you're implying that all vegetarians don't consume anything that contains
> cholesterol then you are wrong.


IF they consume cholesterol, they are consuming animal
parts. Cholesterol only occurs in animals.

> Vegans, ovo-vegetarians, and
> lacto-vegetarians are all subsets of 'vegetarians'.


"Ovo-" and "lacto-" are disgusting bits of sophistry.
They are excuse-making by people who want to claim
(what they stupidly imagine to be) cachet of
"vegetarian", but who don't have the discipline or
imagination to be vegetarians. They are not
vegetarian. If you eat parts of animals or products
that directly come from animals, you are not
vegetarian. Period.

> Some vegetarians eat eggs.


No vegetarians eat eggs. If you eat eggs, you aren't
vegetarian. It's that simple.

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sarah Carter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

Plug > wrote in message =
...
> I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so =

might
> be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of =

battery eggs
> in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. =

I
> believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. =

The
> company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or =

free
> range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, =

which is
> why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to =

consumer
> pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on =

this. A
> straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie =

friends I
> can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb


I'm still vegetarian, and buy the odd box of eggs.=20

I usually buy locally produced free range eggs from a farm which feeds =
their chickens a vegetarian GM free diet.

Sarah
--=20



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

Sarah Carter wrote:

> Plug > wrote in message ...
>
>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
>>range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
>>pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
>>straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
>>can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb

>
>
> I'm still vegetarian, and buy the odd box of eggs.


If you eat them, you're not vegetarian. Eggs are 100%
animal, and animals are not vegetarian.

There is no such thing as 'ovo-vegetarian'. If you eat
eggs, you're not vegetarian: full stop.

>
> I usually buy locally produced free range eggs from a farm which feeds their chickens a vegetarian GM free diet.
>
> Sarah


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ron
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

Jonathan Ball > wrote in message thlink.net>...
> Sarah Carter wrote:
>
> > Plug > wrote in message ...
> >
> >>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
> >>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
> >>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
> >>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> >>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
> >>range or not. I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
> >>pressure. However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
> >>straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
> >>can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb

> >
> >
> > I'm still vegetarian, and buy the odd box of eggs.

>
> If you eat them, you're not vegetarian. Eggs are 100%
> animal, and animals are not vegetarian.
>
> There is no such thing as 'ovo-vegetarian'. If you eat
> eggs, you're not vegetarian: full stop.






At last we agree on something.











> >
> > I usually buy locally produced free range eggs from a farm which feeds their chickens a vegetarian GM free diet.
> >
> > Sarah

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug" > wrote:

>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
>range or not.


People who don't want there to be farm animals are opposed to any type
of egg production, even if it provides decent lives for thousands, millions,
billions... of laying hens.

>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
>pressure.


Where are these people who want to promote decent lives for farm animals
with their diet? They sure don't post around here. All we see is opposition to
a suggestion like that. Don't ever lose sight of the fact that veg*nism does
*not* promote life of any kind for farm animals, and that's the whole idea. If you
or anyone wants to contribute to decent lives for farm animals with your diet,
keep in mind that you can't do it by being veg*n.

>However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
>straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
>can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb
>


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
John Jones
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg dump

How about an infinity of hens in a capitalist's henhouse? Now THAT'S
compassion!
JJ

> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug" >

wrote:
>
> >I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

might
> >be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

eggs
> >in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
> >believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> >company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

free
> >range or not.

>
> People who don't want there to be farm animals are opposed to any type
> of egg production, even if it provides decent lives for thousands,

millions,
> billions... of laying hens.
>
> >I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
> >pressure.

>
> Where are these people who want to promote decent lives for farm

animals
> with their diet? They sure don't post around here. All we see is

opposition to
> a suggestion like that. Don't ever lose sight of the fact that veg*nism

does
> *not* promote life of any kind for farm animals, and that's the whole

idea. If you
> or anyone wants to contribute to decent lives for farm animals with your

diet,
> keep in mind that you can't do it by being veg*n.
>
> >However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
> >straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
> >can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb
> >

>



  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rat & Swan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question





> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug" > wrote:


>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so might
>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery eggs
>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or free
>>range or not.


<snip>

>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
>>pressure.


<snip>

I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.

Rat



  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg dump

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:24:06 +0000 (UTC), "John Jones" > wrote:

>How about an infinity of hens in a capitalist's henhouse?


Caged hens, or cage free?

>Now THAT'S
>compassion!
>JJ
>
> wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug" >

>wrote:
>>
>> >I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

>might
>> >be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

>eggs
>> >in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes. I
>> >believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>> >company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

>free
>> >range or not.

>>
>> People who don't want there to be farm animals are opposed to any type
>> of egg production, even if it provides decent lives for thousands,

>millions,
>> billions... of laying hens.
>>
>> >I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>> >why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to consumer
>> >pressure.

>>
>> Where are these people who want to promote decent lives for farm

>animals
>> with their diet? They sure don't post around here. All we see is

>opposition to
>> a suggestion like that. Don't ever lose sight of the fact that veg*nism

>does
>> *not* promote life of any kind for farm animals, and that's the whole

>idea. If you
>> or anyone wants to contribute to decent lives for farm animals with your

>diet,
>> keep in mind that you can't do it by being veg*n.
>>
>> >However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
>> >straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie friends I
>> >can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb
>> >

>>

>


  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"

> wrote:
>
> >>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

might
> >>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

eggs
> >>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.

I
> >>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> >>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

free
> >>range or not.

>
> <snip>
>
> >>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to

consumer
> >>pressure.

>
> <snip>
>
> I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
> hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
> if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
> see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
> But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
>
> Rat


There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern would
be the fate of male chicks.

-Rubystars


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"

> wrote:
>
> >>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

might
> >>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

eggs
> >>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.

I
> >>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
> >>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

free
> >>range or not.

>
> <snip>
>
> >>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to

consumer
> >>pressure.

>
> <snip>
>
> I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
> hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
> if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
> see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
> But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
>
> Rat


I agree, but so far as UK trading standards are concerned the supplier is
not in breach of the law. They have no guidlines - 'vegetarians' and
'ethical vegetarians'. I would not touch battery produced eggs and am also a
little suspect of so called 'barn eggs'.

Ray
>



  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg dump

It just blows my mind how hot certain people get over this particular issue.

Scott

> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:24:06 +0000 (UTC), "John Jones"

> wrote:
>
> >How about an infinity of hens in a capitalist's henhouse?

>
> Caged hens, or cage free?
>
> >Now THAT'S
> >compassion!
> >JJ
> >
> > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"

>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> >I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

> >might
> >> >be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of

battery
> >eggs
> >> >in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.

I
> >> >believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards.

The
> >> >company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

> >free
> >> >range or not.
> >>
> >> People who don't want there to be farm animals are opposed to any

type
> >> of egg production, even if it provides decent lives for thousands,

> >millions,
> >> billions... of laying hens.
> >>
> >> >I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >> >why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to

consumer
> >> >pressure.
> >>
> >> Where are these people who want to promote decent lives for farm

> >animals
> >> with their diet? They sure don't post around here. All we see is

> >opposition to
> >> a suggestion like that. Don't ever lose sight of the fact that veg*nism

> >does
> >> *not* promote life of any kind for farm animals, and that's the whole

> >idea. If you
> >> or anyone wants to contribute to decent lives for farm animals with

your
> >diet,
> >> keep in mind that you can't do it by being veg*n.
> >>
> >> >However, maybe I'm revolving in my own little bubble on this. A
> >> >straw poll opinion would be useful - I have a handful of veggie

friends I
> >> >can ask and a few off here would be useful. TIA. Deb
> >> >
> >>

> >

>



  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg dump

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:33:20 -0500, "Miller" > wrote:

>It just blows my mind how hot certain people get over this particular issue.
>
>Scott


Over which particular issue? If you mean cage free eggs
in particular, think about this situation: There are four hens
in a cage that is so low they can't flap their wings. They don't
have much room to move around at all. They are on wire
mesh, so they can't scratch or take a dust bath. If you were
in such a position you might think it was overly restrictive. I
think it is. Let's go on with it a bit to something I never see
the "ARAs" point out, but it's a huge factor to me: sometimes
one or more of the hens will single out and beat on another
hen. Sometimes the abused hen will pull her head out of the
corner, and head toward another part of the cage...one of
the abusers will beat on her and send her another direction
....another abuser will beat on her over there...she will try to
get away from them but can't, so will eventually burry her
head in a corner again to keep it from getting beaten on.
Every time she pulls her head out she gets beaten on, and
she lives in fear all of the time. If you just don't care about
things like that, then that's just the type of person you are
and you're not likely to ever understand why any people
would consider it significant.
Do you think there are any animal related situations
that people should get hot about? If so, which ones?


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Elmo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

Rubystars wrote:

> "Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"

>
> > wrote:
>
>>>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

>
> might
>
>>>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery

>
> eggs
>
>>>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.

>
> I
>
>>>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>>>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

>
> free
>
>>>>range or not.

>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>>>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to

>
> consumer
>
>>>>pressure.

>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
>>hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
>>if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
>>see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
>>But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
>>
>>Rat

>
>
> There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
> expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern would
> be the fate of male chicks.


Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
end up as veal?

>
> -Rubystars
>
>


  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rat & Swan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question



Ray wrote:

<snip>

> I agree, but so far as UK trading standards are concerned the supplier is
> not in breach of the law. They have no guidlines - 'vegetarians' and
> 'ethical vegetarians'. I would not touch battery produced eggs and am also a
> little suspect of so called 'barn eggs'.


You should be. I don't know about conditions in the UK, but here in the
US there are no real standards for so-called "free-range" chickens
except that they not be kept in cages. I've visited a "free-range"
facility, and it was nothing more than a big building filled with birds
crowded wing-to-wing -- filthy, with air choking with dust and
ammonia, with no source of water except a trough filled with a grey
sludge of fecal-contaminated water. That was what turned me from
vegetarian to vegan.

Rat

  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Elmo" > wrote in message
...
> Rubystars wrote:
>
> > "Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"

> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

> >
> > might
> >
> >>>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of

battery
> >
> > eggs
> >
> >>>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.

> >
> > I
> >
> >>>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards.

The
> >>>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

> >
> > free
> >
> >>>>range or not.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to

> >
> > consumer
> >
> >>>>pressure.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
> >>hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
> >>if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
> >>see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
> >>But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
> >>
> >>Rat

> >
> >
> > There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
> > expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern

would
> > be the fate of male chicks.

>
> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?


check the figures, very little veal eaten in proportion to the amount of
beef


  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Elmo" > wrote in message
...
> Rubystars wrote:
>
> > "Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"

> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so

> >
> > might
> >
> >>>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of

battery
> >
> > eggs
> >
> >>>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.

> >
> > I
> >
> >>>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards.

The
> >>>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or

> >
> > free
> >
> >>>>range or not.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to

> >
> > consumer
> >
> >>>>pressure.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
> >>hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
> >>if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
> >>see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
> >>But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
> >>
> >>Rat

> >
> >
> > There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
> > expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern

would
> > be the fate of male chicks.

>
> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?


The fate of male calves on dairy farms is also a concern.

-Rubystars




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rat & Swan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question



Elmo wrote:

<snip>
>>> I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
>>> hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
>>> if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
>>> see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
>>> But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.


>>> Rat


<snip>
> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?


Absolutely. In theory, if a cow were treated as a genuine companion
animal, allowed to pick her own mate (bull), nurse her calf herself,
and remain in the society of her own herd, taking _surplus_ milk
beyond that required by the calf -- as long as the cow was tame
enough that the process did not stress her -- would not, IMO, be a
violation of AR principles, any more than using the same cow's dung
as fertilizer. But such a situation is almost impossible in our
modern world as it exists, and, certainly, is not found in dairy
farms which produce commercial milk products.

Rat

  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Russ Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question



> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?
> > -Rubystars


"most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but has
not ben true for some time now.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Russ Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

> The fate of male calves on dairy farms is also a concern.
> -Rubystars


The vast majority of dairy bull calves end up being raised for beef, not
veal. For some breeds of dairy cows like Jerseys (the breed of cow we have)
no bull calves end up as veal.
Most of our bull calves are sold in groups of 2 or 3 to people who wish
to raise them for their own eating. Most of these people use rotational
grazing to rais these calves. A small number are raised as breeding bulls.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Russ Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question



> Absolutely. In theory, if a cow were treated as a genuine companion
> animal, allowed to pick her own mate (bull),


Cows don't pick their own mates. Their wild relitives don't either. In the
wild the bulls fight among themselves and the winner breeds the cows. The
cows don't care who he is and is given the oppertunity will mate with every
bull that attemps to breed them as long as they are in standing heat.
The idea that people force cows to mate with bulls not of their
choosing is a myth as cows make no attempt to prevent ANY bull (or other cow
for that matter) from breeding them.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Russ Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question



I've visited a "free-range"
> facility, and it was nothing more than a big building filled with birds
> crowded wing-to-wing -- filthy, with air choking with dust and
> ammonia, with no source of water except a trough filled with a grey
> sludge of fecal-contaminated water. That was what turned me from
> vegetarian to vegan.
>
> Rat


We raise chickens on our farm. They are truely "free range" They are penned
at night in a portable coop for their own protection. Early in the morning
the door to the coop is opened and the chicken spend the day wandering about
the pasture eating bugs, seeds and digging through the cow manure for any
grain that passed through the cows. Each night after the birds are locked up
the portable pen is moved to a new pasture. The chickens follow the cows two
or three days behind in the pasture rotation. This is similar to the natural
cycle of wild birds following large herds. As an added benifit the chickens
almost eliminate any fly problems for the cows by scratching through the cow
pies and eliminating a place for the fly larva to grow.
We keep a couple roosters with the hens. Every spring we have several
batches of chicks. Whatever roosters are left in the fall that we don't need
we eat.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg dump


> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:33:20 -0500, "Miller"

> wrote:
>
> >It just blows my mind how hot certain people get over this particular

issue.
> >
> >Scott

>
> Over which particular issue? If you mean cage free eggs
> in particular, think about this situation: There are four hens
> in a cage that is so low they can't flap their wings. They don't
> have much room to move around at all. They are on wire
> mesh, so they can't scratch or take a dust bath. If you were
> in such a position you might think it was overly restrictive. I
> think it is. Let's go on with it a bit to something I never see
> the "ARAs" point out, but it's a huge factor to me: sometimes
> one or more of the hens will single out and beat on another
> hen. Sometimes the abused hen will pull her head out of the
> corner, and head toward another part of the cage...one of
> the abusers will beat on her and send her another direction
> ...another abuser will beat on her over there...she will try to
> get away from them but can't, so will eventually burry her
> head in a corner again to keep it from getting beaten on.
> Every time she pulls her head out she gets beaten on, and
> she lives in fear all of the time. If you just don't care about
> things like that, then that's just the type of person you are
> and you're not likely to ever understand why any people
> would consider it significant.
> Do you think there are any animal related situations
> that people should get hot about? If so, which ones?


I mean, go out and do something about it then, for crissakes! Do you think
ranting on internet newsgroups about anything ever does any good?

Scott


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> > end up as veal?
> > > -Rubystars

>
> "most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but

has
> not ben true for some time now.
>
> Kala Thompson
> Farmer
> Richland Center, Wi


I didn't make that statement but I'm glad to know.

-Rubystars


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> > The fate of male calves on dairy farms is also a concern.
> > -Rubystars

>
> The vast majority of dairy bull calves end up being raised for beef, not
> veal. For some breeds of dairy cows like Jerseys (the breed of cow we

have)
> no bull calves end up as veal.
> Most of our bull calves are sold in groups of 2 or 3 to people who

wish
> to raise them for their own eating. Most of these people use rotational
> grazing to rais these calves. A small number are raised as breeding

bulls.
>
> Kala Thompson
> Farmer
> Richland Center, Wi


Ok thanks for the info!

-Rubystars


  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim Webster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question


"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> > end up as veal?
> > > -Rubystars

>
> "most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but

has
> not ben true for some time now.


Most bull calves do not end up as veal in the UK or Europe generally


  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Five Cats
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

In message >, Russ Thompson
> writes
>
>
>> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
>> end up as veal?
>> > -Rubystars

>
>"most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but has
>not ben true for some time now.
>
>Kala Thompson
>Farmer
>Richland Center, Wi


Sorry to be ignorant, but where is the 'Richland Center, Wi'? Somewhere
in the US?

--
Five Cats
Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Five Cats
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

In message >, Mike Marshall
> writes
writes:
>>Don't ever lose sight of the fact that veg*nism does
>>*not* promote life of any kind for farm animals, and that's the whole idea.

>
>That's crazy. If everyone was a vegan, there'd still be lots of cows,
>running around in giant herds, like buffalos, and wild chickens flapping
>around everywhere, and pigs too...


Busy eating the crops we are feeding ourselves on? I don't think so.

>
>Oh never mind...
>
>-Mike


--
Five Cats
Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
tg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message >...
> I've visited a "free-range"
> > facility, and it was nothing more than a big building filled with birds
> > crowded wing-to-wing -- filthy, with air choking with dust and
> > ammonia, with no source of water except a trough filled with a grey
> > sludge of fecal-contaminated water. That was what turned me from
> > vegetarian to vegan.
> >
> > Rat

>
> We raise chickens on our farm. They are truely "free range" They are penned
> at night in a portable coop for their own protection. Early in the morning
> the door to the coop is opened and the chicken spend the day wandering about
> the pasture eating bugs, seeds and digging through the cow manure for any
> grain that passed through the cows. Each night after the birds are locked up
> the portable pen is moved to a new pasture. The chickens follow the cows two
> or three days behind in the pasture rotation. This is similar to the natural
> cycle of wild birds following large herds. As an added benifit the chickens
> almost eliminate any fly problems for the cows by scratching through the cow
> pies and eliminating a place for the fly larva to grow.
> We keep a couple roosters with the hens. Every spring we have several
> batches of chicks. Whatever roosters are left in the fall that we don't need
> we eat.
>


I always learn more from farmers than philosophers (seriously.)

What happens to the bull calves if they don't become veal?

Why do the chickens...seriously, why do they return to the coop? Are
they also fed there to condition that response?

How do you keep track of which roosters to keep?

-tg









> Kala Thompson
> Farmer
> Richland Center, Wi
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzzy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message >...

> We raise chickens on our farm. They are truely "free range" They are penned
> at night in a portable coop for their own protection. Early in the morning
> the door to the coop is opened and the chicken spend the day wandering about
> the pasture...


I would like to get my eggs from this kind of a farm. Where can I get
information on local (Pennsylvania) suppliers?
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Russ Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Free range Egg Question

> I always learn more from farmers than philosophers (seriously.)
>
> What happens to the bull calves if they don't become veal?


*** They are raised as beef. Most are rasied on pasture as "stockers" until
2 - 4 months before slaughter then they are put into feed lots. Most are
slaughtered at 14 or so month of age. Not all are raised this way. Some are
raised on pasture only and sold as "grass fed" beef. Some are put into a
feed lot much sooner. Some (about 20%) are raised to 4 months and
slaughtered as veal, though fewer and fewer are raised as veal every year.
All this applies to holsteins witch make up 94% of the dairy cattle in the
USA.
Other breeds like jerseys (witch we have) are very rarely used as veal
and never in comercial veal operations. That vast majority of jersey bull
calves are raised as grass fed beef. Jerseys are poor converters of grain to
beef and so are not often used in feed lots. They are also famous for
producing high qualiety beef on grass alone. Most people who raise jersey
bull calves do so for their own eating or for direct marketing.

> Why do the chickens...seriously, why do they return to the coop?


*** That's their "home". When we have new chickens we lock them up in the
coop for a week or so and from then on they will always return at night.
There are roosts and nesting boxes in the coop for them and they seem to
know that they are safe there.

> they also fed there to condition that response?


*** They are fed and watered in the coop but the feed we provide is only a
small part of thier diet, about 15% of their total diet by weight. If there
is no feed in the coop they will come back to it anyway.

> How do you keep track of which roosters to keep?


*** We see these chickens twice a day every day of the year. I know who is
who. We usually keep a rooster until he gets to old and eat his sons.
Sometimes we can eat the older roosters and hen but usually if they get to
old to get around well they will become lunch for a hawk. Our dog protects
them from all other predators but can't do anything about the hawks.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi USA




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