A food question on a.f.v .. don't be too shocked now ;-)

I've just started to get into weightlifting a little more seriously, and
I'm wondering if there's any good high protein vegan meals around.

The last time I checked my Carb:Protein:Fat ratio was around 60:25:15. I'd
prefer it to be more like 40:50:10, but just about every meal I have has
atleast double the amount of carbs as protein.

The majority of my protein now comes from a soy protein powder that I have
of a morning. If I'm going to up my protein I'd prefer to do it through
meals rather than just adding more suppliments.

Ben

- coming of age during the plague of Regan and Bush
watching capitalism gun down democracy
it had a funny effect on me, I guess

Ani DiFranco

Belial wrote in message . ..
A food question on a.f.v .. don't be too shocked now ;-)

I've just started to get into weightlifting a little more seriously, and
I'm wondering if there's any good high protein vegan meals around.

The last time I checked my Carb:Protein:Fat ratio was around 60:25:15. I'd
prefer it to be more like 40:50:10, but just about every meal I have has
atleast double the amount of carbs as protein.

The majority of my protein now comes from a soy protein powder that I have
of a morning. If I'm going to up my protein I'd prefer to do it through
meals rather than just adding more suppliments.

Ben


These folks may be of assistance: http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/veganbasics.htm

Belial wrote:
A food question on a.f.v .. don't be too shocked now ;-)

I've just started to get into weightlifting a little more seriously, and
I'm wondering if there's any good high protein vegan meals around.

Eat more soy-based products, but check labels for added fats and sugars.

The last time I checked my Carb:Protein:Fat ratio was around 60:25:15. I'd
prefer it to be more like 40:50:10, but just about every meal I have has
atleast double the amount of carbs as protein.

****, 50% protein is way too high! Do you realize what that will do to
your kidneys? Even the Zone Diet, which is high protein, only recommends
30% of calories to come as protein.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2859733.stm
http://www.drmcdougall.com/debate.html
http://www2.uiuc.edu/ro/cvs/Atkins.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...09-kidney.html

As long as you're vegan, your diet is going to be carb-laden. That's
because your diet is plant-based. It has a lot going for it, but if you
want more protein you'll probably have to add in egg whites or
dairy-based foods (or fish, chicken breasts, etc). It all boils down to
what your priorities are and if good health is more important to you
than looking a certain way.

The majority of my protein now comes from a soy protein powder that I have
of a morning. If I'm going to up my protein I'd prefer to do it through
meals rather than just adding more suppliments.

I'm all for getting your nutrition through regular meals rather than
supplementation, but I really recommend you do a little more research
into protein intake as it relates to health problems. Exercise is a
wonderful thing, too, but it should add to health and not detract from
it. Frankly, sounds like your priorities are out of whack.

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:14:18 +0000, usual suspect wrote:

I'm all for getting your nutrition through regular meals rather than
supplementation, but I really recommend you do a little more research
into protein intake as it relates to health problems. Exercise is a
wonderful thing, too, but it should add to health and not detract from
it. Frankly, sounds like your priorities are out of whack.

Thanks for all the advice

Just to clarify, I'm not particularly image-conscious. I've started to
take weight-lifting more seriously only because I enjoy it, not because
I wanna turn into an ape Increasing protein was because if I'm going
the work I want to get the most out of it, and most things I've read seem
to say you need heaps of protein to do that.

I thought 50% was a little high.. I'll read up on the info you
have me.

As for priorities.. I'm a vegetarian who's slowly moving towards vegan.
I'm not about to go on an animal eating rampage just so I can bulk up - I
just wanted to know if there was a "vegan" way to do it. Pretty much every
vegetarian recipe I can find that has high protein also has high fat and a
whole lot of dairy. Guess it's supplients and a whole lot of soy milk and
soygurt for me...


Ben

- coming of age during the plague of Regan and Bush
watching capitalism gun down democracy
it had a funny effect on me, I guess

Ani DiFranco

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:01:37 +1100, Belial wrote:

As for priorities.. I'm a vegetarian who's slowly moving towards vegan.
I'm not about to go on an animal eating rampage just so I can bulk up - I
just wanted to know if there was a "vegan" way to do it. Pretty much every
vegetarian recipe I can find that has high protein also has high fat and a
whole lot of dairy. Guess it's supplients and a whole lot of soy milk and
soygurt for me...


Ben

It's a real trick for vegans who do muscular exercise to get the
protein in to support those muscles. As you have found, a lot of times
it comes back to soy. And too bad if you don't like soy all the time!
However peas are also supposed to be good. There's a protein
supplement powder by Naturade called "Veg Protein Booster " that
includes pea and rice protein, although it is still mostly soy in
there. And then there are nuts and beans. You have to be careful with
nuts because you don't want a bunch of fat in your diet, but choose
the right nuts, and keep your other caloric intake down and you might
be okay I bet!

Belial wrote:
I'm all for getting your nutrition through regular meals rather than
supplementation, but I really recommend you do a little more research
into protein intake as it relates to health problems. Exercise is a
wonderful thing, too, but it should add to health and not detract from
it. Frankly, sounds like your priorities are out of whack.

Thanks for all the advice

You're welcome.

Just to clarify, I'm not particularly image-conscious. I've started to
take weight-lifting more seriously only because I enjoy it, not because
I wanna turn into an ape Increasing protein was because if I'm going
the work I want to get the most out of it, and most things I've read seem
to say you need heaps of protein to do that.

"Getting the most out of it" is relative. I still hear you saying that
you want to add bulk even though you say you're not particularly
image-conscious. If your goal is good health, then bulking up is
irrelevant and consuming a lot more protein is beside the point (not to
mention pretty hard on your body).

The mere act of resistance training is very beneficial, helping to
strengthen connective tissues, bone, not to mention increasing your
metabolism. Those things are all healthy, whether you add additional
protein to your diet or not. I applaud such effort.

Is "bulking up" inherently healthy, though? I don't think it is. You
could make a case that adding x amount of lean tissue will improve your
metabolism, but I'd counter that y amount plus cardio work will speed it
up even faster and offer more health benefits. Going for protein
overkill is unhealthy in either case. It all goes back to your real
goal: are you doing it for health or for appearance?

You're going to have a healthy appearance just from working out with
regularity and some measure of intensity. I guess that's not enough for
some people.

I thought 50% was a little high.. I'll read up on the info you
have me.

Good deal. I'd also encourage you to do your own research. The links I
gave aren't even the tip of an iceberg.

As for priorities.. I'm a vegetarian who's slowly moving towards vegan.
I'm not about to go on an animal eating rampage just so I can bulk up - I
just wanted to know if there was a "vegan" way to do it.

Only in a most unnatural way, by focusing on protein isolates from soy,
nuts, and other plant-based foods. Remember that soy is loaded with
phytoestrogens. Estrogens in any form aren't beneficial to bodybuilders
since they "soften" things. I know guys at my gym who won't touch soy at
all because of that. If you want the big, hard look, you'll have to go
with the non-fat dairy products, and probably skinless chicken and
turkey breast meat as well as low-fat cuts like tenderloin.

Pretty much every
vegetarian recipe I can find that has high protein also has high fat and a
whole lot of dairy. Guess it's supplients and a whole lot of soy milk and
soygurt for me...

That's a lot of phytoestrogen, too.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html

I don't agree with all the conclusions in the above articles, but I do
agree that overconsumption of soy, like any other food, can have some
nasty consequences. That's particularly true the more processed foods
are -- and soy protein powders concentrate the protein isolates AND
isoflavones. Isoflavones are estrogenic. Please do your own research on
all this. Estrogens soften, they're feminizing hormones. You already get
them from the environment.

That's another reason why I've not exactly been encouraging of your
dietary goals, but I do encourage you to keep lifting. Keep your focus
on what's *healthy*, not on the appearance factor. I do wish you well.

"usual suspect" wrote in message
.. .
Belial wrote:
I'm all for getting your nutrition through regular meals rather than
supplementation, but I really recommend you do a little more research
into protein intake as it relates to health problems. Exercise is a
wonderful thing, too, but it should add to health and not detract from
it. Frankly, sounds like your priorities are out of whack.

Thanks for all the advice

You're welcome.

Just to clarify, I'm not particularly image-conscious. I've started to
take weight-lifting more seriously only because I enjoy it, not because
I wanna turn into an ape Increasing protein was because if I'm going
the work I want to get the most out of it, and most things I've read
seem
to say you need heaps of protein to do that.

"Getting the most out of it" is relative. I still hear you saying that
you want to add bulk even though you say you're not particularly
image-conscious. If your goal is good health, then bulking up is
irrelevant and consuming a lot more protein is beside the point (not to
mention pretty hard on your body).

The mere act of resistance training is very beneficial, helping to
strengthen connective tissues, bone, not to mention increasing your
metabolism. Those things are all healthy, whether you add additional
protein to your diet or not. I applaud such effort.

Is "bulking up" inherently healthy, though? I don't think it is. You
could make a case that adding x amount of lean tissue will improve your
metabolism, but I'd counter that y amount plus cardio work will speed it
up even faster and offer more health benefits. Going for protein
overkill is unhealthy in either case. It all goes back to your real
goal: are you doing it for health or for appearance?
I don't think sulking up and cardio is mutually exclusive although lots of
meat eating lifters would laugh at my cardio- from my experience you can do
both-but I do have borderline high blood pressure(so does my father)
but am a bit bulked up--personally I think a bit of lifting and running is
wonderful-gets those endorphins going and you look and feel wonderful-it is
nice having big arms and chest--ha ha..It might a bit slower on veg diet but
I have always been one...for serious competitive bulking I don't know....
Michael



You're going to have a healthy appearance just from working out with
regularity and some measure of intensity. I guess that's not enough for
some people.

I thought 50% was a little high.. I'll read up on the info you
have me.

Good deal. I'd also encourage you to do your own research. The links I
gave aren't even the tip of an iceberg.

As for priorities.. I'm a vegetarian who's slowly moving towards vegan.
I'm not about to go on an animal eating rampage just so I can bulk up -
I
just wanted to know if there was a "vegan" way to do it.

Only in a most unnatural way, by focusing on protein isolates from soy,
nuts, and other plant-based foods. Remember that soy is loaded with
phytoestrogens. Estrogens in any form aren't beneficial to bodybuilders
since they "soften" things. I know guys at my gym who won't touch soy at
all because of that. If you want the big, hard look, you'll have to go
with the non-fat dairy products, and probably skinless chicken and
turkey breast meat as well as low-fat cuts like tenderloin.

Pretty much every
vegetarian recipe I can find that has high protein also has high fat and
a
whole lot of dairy. Guess it's supplients and a whole lot of soy milk
and
soygurt for me...

That's a lot of phytoestrogen, too.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html

I don't agree with all the conclusions in the above articles, but I do
agree that overconsumption of soy, like any other food, can have some
nasty consequences. That's particularly true the more processed foods
are -- and soy protein powders concentrate the protein isolates AND
isoflavones. Isoflavones are estrogenic. Please do your own research on
all this. Estrogens soften, they're feminizing hormones. You already get
them from the environment.

That's another reason why I've not exactly been encouraging of your
dietary goals, but I do encourage you to keep lifting. Keep your focus
on what's *healthy*, not on the appearance factor. I do wish you well.

"Belial" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:14:18 +0000, usual suspect wrote:

I'm all for getting your nutrition through regular meals rather than
supplementation, but I really recommend you do a little more research
into protein intake as it relates to health problems. Exercise is a
wonderful thing, too, but it should add to health and not detract from
it. Frankly, sounds like your priorities are out of whack.

Thanks for all the advice

Just to clarify, I'm not particularly image-conscious. I've started to
take weight-lifting more seriously only because I enjoy it, not because
I wanna turn into an ape Increasing protein was because if I'm going
the work I want to get the most out of it, and most things I've read seem
to say you need heaps of protein to do that.

Maybe it would help to clarify what you want out of weight lifting. If it's
enjoyment, as you mentioned, then there's not as much need to worry about
protein:carb:fat ratios. If by "get the most out of it", you mean to bulk up
then diet is important, but there are other factors to consider: age, body
type, various repitition and resting strategies, etc. I am almost 45 years
old, 6'2" tall, 160 lbs. - a "hardgainer" by most accounts. My interest is
to maintain good health through vegetarian diet, weight bearing exercises,
cardio exercises, inline skating, hiking, biking, cross country skiing, and
generally lots of activity.

I thought 50% was a little high.. I'll read up on the info you
have me.

As for priorities.. I'm a vegetarian who's slowly moving towards vegan.
I'm not about to go on an animal eating rampage just so I can bulk up - I
just wanted to know if there was a "vegan" way to do it. Pretty much every
vegetarian recipe I can find that has high protein also has high fat and a
whole lot of dairy. Guess it's supplients and a whole lot of soy milk and
soygurt for me...

I have a few books on the subject. I like "The Vegetarian Sports Nutrition
Guide" by Lisa Dorfman the best. There are some recipes included and lots of
personal accounts by famous vegetarian sports figures, many of them vegan.

Michael Balarama wrote:
"Getting the most out of it" is relative. I still hear you saying that
you want to add bulk even though you say you're not particularly
image-conscious. If your goal is good health, then bulking up is
irrelevant and consuming a lot more protein is beside the point (not to
mention pretty hard on your body).

The mere act of resistance training is very beneficial, helping to
strengthen connective tissues, bone, not to mention increasing your
metabolism. Those things are all healthy, whether you add additional
protein to your diet or not. I applaud such effort.

Is "bulking up" inherently healthy, though? I don't think it is. You
could make a case that adding x amount of lean tissue will improve your
metabolism, but I'd counter that y amount plus cardio work will speed it
up even faster and offer more health benefits. Going for protein
overkill is unhealthy in either case. It all goes back to your real
goal: are you doing it for health or for appearance?

I don't think sulking up and cardio is mutually exclusive

They're not mutually exclusive, which is why I recommend both resistance
training and cardio together. I think too many people emphasize bulking
up at the expense of cardio work. It's especially true with us men.

Take a look at longevity of football players, bodybuilders,
powerlifters, etc. Compare that to people who play tennis, run, cycle,
etc. There's a pretty stark difference in longevity. The main
differences are body size, body weight, and amount of cardio-pulmonary
conditioning.

although lots of
meat eating lifters would laugh at my cardio- from my experience you can do
both-but I do have borderline high blood pressure(so does my father)

Cardio activity is strongly recommended for controlling hypertension. I
don't know what kind of cardio you do, but every little bit helps. A
healthy and well-conditioned heart should mean more to someone than a
bulked-up physique.

but am a bit bulked up--personally I think a bit of lifting and running is
wonderful-gets those endorphins going and you look and feel wonderful-it is
nice having big arms and chest--ha ha..It might a bit slower on veg diet but
I have always been one...for serious competitive bulking I don't know....

I guess my main point to Ben is that a healthy diet combined with
healthy exercise will produce a healthy person. Bulking up is simply
about aesthetics, not about improving health (aside from the fact that
increasing lean body mass speeds up base metabolism -- which occurs
during resistance training anyway). In essence, bulking is a matter of
overeating during training. Overeating isn't really healthy unless one
has a medical reason for doing so. Bodybuilding just isn't a medical reason.

And you raise an important issue with respect to time: healthy habits
should occur for life. Those habits will lead to a healthy body and
healthy life. Concentrating on fast gains by overconsuming a diet
lacking in variety is an unwise and potentially unhealthy endeavor --
particularly when one food (soy) the OP is considering overeating has
effects like softening, lowering testosterone, and generally feminizing
his body, which ultimately may be incongruent with his bulky goals. Some
soy is okay -- even beneficial -- but too much of anything is bad.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 02:35:06 +0000, usual suspect wrote:

I guess my main point to Ben is that a healthy diet combined with
healthy exercise will produce a healthy person. Bulking up is simply
about aesthetics, not about improving health (aside from the fact that
increasing lean body mass speeds up base metabolism -- which occurs
during resistance training anyway). In essence, bulking is a matter of
overeating during training. Overeating isn't really healthy unless one
has a medical reason for doing so. Bodybuilding just isn't a medical reason.

You've got some good points, and have made me question my goals (which is
always a good thing!). I guess I'm looking at it like this: I've always
been relatively bulky, regardless of diet, exercise etc. Not obese (except
for a couple of years in uni ) but thick-chested etc. So I figured that
I may as well go with my general body base and turn it into something that
looks a little better.

BUT, that being said, what I'm after from weightlifting and is basically
strength and fitness, not looks. Looking better is a bonus. I already ride
to work a few times a week, but I don't enjoy that all that much - it's
more a form of transport that has the bonus of being healthy. I actually
enjoy weights though, so I figured that would be a good place to focus my
energy.

And you raise an important issue with respect to
time: healthy habits
should occur for life. Those habits will lead to a healthy body and
healthy life. Concentrating on fast gains by overconsuming a diet
lacking in variety is an unwise and potentially unhealthy endeavor --
particularly when one food (soy) the OP is considering overeating has
effects like softening, lowering testosterone, and generally feminizing
his body, which ultimately may be incongruent with his bulky goals. Some
soy is okay -- even beneficial -- but too much of anything is bad.

This is all stuff I hadn't considered - thanks again.


Ben

- coming of age during the plague of Regan and Bush
watching capitalism gun down democracy
it had a funny effect on me, I guess

Ani DiFranco

Belial wrote:
You've got some good points, and have made me question my goals (which is
always a good thing!). I guess I'm looking at it like this: I've always
been relatively bulky, regardless of diet, exercise etc. Not obese (except
for a couple of years in uni ) but thick-chested etc. So I figured that
I may as well go with my general body base and turn it into something that
looks a little better.

BUT, that being said, what I'm after from weightlifting and is basically
strength and fitness, not looks. Looking better is a bonus. I already ride
to work a few times a week, but I don't enjoy that all that much - it's
more a form of transport that has the bonus of being healthy. I actually
enjoy weights though, so I figured that would be a good place to focus my
energy.

Okay. I think you can make solid strength and fitness gains by eating a
normal, well-balanced diet. You'll also be a lot better off in the long
run. Protein by itself won't make you stronger or more fit.

And you raise an important issue with respect to
time: healthy habits
should occur for life. Those habits will lead to a healthy body and
healthy life. Concentrating on fast gains by overconsuming a diet
lacking in variety is an unwise and potentially unhealthy endeavor --
particularly when one food (soy) the OP is considering overeating has
effects like softening, lowering testosterone, and generally feminizing
his body, which ultimately may be incongruent with his bulky goals. Some
soy is okay -- even beneficial -- but too much of anything is bad.

This is all stuff I hadn't considered - thanks again.

You're welcome, and I still wish you well.