(tofubar) wrote in message . com...
I've noticed that my friends who have gone exclusively vegan, even if
they take vitamins, seem more moody and depressed. Has anyone else
noticed this?

For clarification: Did the moodiness and depression begin "before* or
*after* they went exclusively vegan?

There seems to be evidence that cutting out animal food might help
depression:
http://www.celestialhealing.net/mentalveg.htm

If your friends really did get more moody and depressed *after* going
exclusively vegan, then:

1. Are they getting enough omega3?

Maybe suggest to them that they eat some flax.

So far as I know, there are few *good* *vegan* sources of omega3.
Minor vegan sources, yes, but good vegan sources. One such is flax
seed. I regluarly grind flax seeds and dump them in
carrot/celery/pepper juice.

(Even tho I'm not strict vegan, because once a month or so I eat
buffalo meat, probably the best kind of meat.)


2. Are they deficient in B12?

Avoid antibiotics. Take B12 supplements.

Antibiotics kill bacteria that make B12.

Jerry Story wrote:
I've noticed that my friends who have gone exclusively vegan, even if
they take vitamins, seem more moody and depressed. Has anyone else
noticed this?

For clarification: Did the moodiness and depression begin "before* or
*after* they went exclusively vegan?

There seems to be evidence that cutting out animal food might help
depression:
http://www.celestialhealing.net/mentalveg.htm

What specific evidence on that page, hmmm? There are only two actual
citations offered and neither deals with depression. Indeed, there's
really not much on that page which deals with the issue of depression --
clinical or otherwise -- other than some unsubstantiated conjecture.

Explain this one for us:

A vegetarian diet produces higher levels of behavior than a diet
containing meat when all types of caloric intake are equal.

WTF does "higher levels of behavior" mean?

If your friends really did get more moody and depressed *after* going
exclusively vegan, then:

1. Are they getting enough omega3?

Maybe suggest to them that they eat some flax.

So far as I know, there are few *good* *vegan* sources of omega3.
Minor vegan sources, yes, but good vegan sources. One such is flax
seed. I regluarly grind flax seeds and dump them in
carrot/celery/pepper juice.

Another underlying cause of depression is anemia. It's quite possible
this person's diet is very low in iron. Some leafy greens have a lot of
iron. Meat, too, has iron, and it may be more bioavailable for some people.

(Even tho I'm not strict vegan, because once a month or so I eat
buffalo meat, probably the best kind of meat.)

Sorry, Charlie, but that pretty much DQs you from being any kind of
vegetarian, much less a "vegan." "Strict vegan" is redundant.
Regardless, your diet regularly contains meat. You're an omnivore. Stop
pretending you're "vegan" in any form.

2. Are they deficient in B12?

Avoid antibiotics. Take B12 supplements.

Antibiotics kill bacteria that make B12.

Where do you get this gem? Your body already lacks the bacteria that
make B12, unless you're an alien or some kind of mutant. Antibiotics are
beneficial for infections. B12 is required by the body all the time. You
shouldn't be dispensing medical advice unless you have a freaking clue
what you're talking about.

"rick etter" wrote in message news:clWpb.1601
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!

ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.
I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!
It will be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at you
and tell you that they don't have to be told by YOU what to do.

You anti-vegetarians force meat on your kids. You force it on people
in public schools and universities and government. Your advertising
is forced in our face everywhere.

And you force YOUR beliefs and YOUR behaviors on animals
by forcing THEM to do what you want -- suffer and die in
a cage -- for your trivial little lust for burgers.

Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life,
or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke,
is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your
heads.

"piddock" wrote in message
om...
"rick etter" wrote in message news:clWpb.1601
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!

ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.
I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!\
==============================
Ah, feel the AR/vegan compassion. You really are a laugh a minute, killer.


It will be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at you
and tell you that they don't have to be told by YOU what to do.
====================
If what a said is such a ly, why did you feel you had to snip it out,
without annotation, and without responding to it? you really are too stupid
to be in the discussion, aren't you? you can't even discuss what you really
think, if you do at all, what with the brain damage you must have.


You anti-vegetarians force meat on your kids. You force it on people
in public schools and universities and government. Your advertising
is forced in our face everywhere.
==================
If it's 'forced' on everybody so badly, why aren't you eating it, fool? You
really don't have a clue, do you?


And you force YOUR beliefs and YOUR behaviors on animals
by forcing THEM to do what you want -- suffer and die in
a cage -- for your trivial little lust for burgers.
====================
Hey, what a coincedence, you cause more animals to die than I do. what's
that say about your hypocrisy, killer?



Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life,
or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke,
is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your
heads.
=======================
Ah, again, the compassion just flows off the tougnes of AR'vegans, doesn't
it?

yet another "vegan" misanthrope wrote:
ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.

Feel the LOVE. Oh, what compassion.

I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!

Yes, you enjoy misfortune of humans while pretending to be compassionate
for animals. I don't expect the light to go on in your head about what's
wrong with that picture because you're mentally ill.

It will be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at you
and tell you that they don't have to be told by YOU what to do.

Fortunately, medical professionals tend to be a lot more compassionate
than AR/vegan activists.

You anti-vegetarians force meat on your kids.

Offer a kid the choice between meat and broccoli and he's more likely to
take the meat.

You force it on people
in public schools and universities and government.

Nobody forces anyone to eat certain kinds of food. Most institutions
offer choices, and many even cater to individuals with specific
religious, cultural, or medical needs. ARAs/vegans are the only group
attempting to force anything on anyone. Meat sells because that's what
people want to eat.

Your advertising is forced in our face everywhere.

Just shut off your ****ing television if it bothers you so much, asshole.

And you force YOUR beliefs and YOUR behaviors on animals
by forcing THEM to do what you want -- suffer and die in
a cage -- for your trivial little lust for burgers.

Tastes aren't trivial. Most of them are formed over many, many years of
evolution.

Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life,

Treat them the way you *think* they treat animals? Two wrongs make it
right, huh.

or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke,

Feel the love...

is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your
heads.

Why can't you just learn to be tolerant of others, pencil dick?

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:33:01 GMT, usual suspect wrote:

yet another "vegan" misanthrope wrote:
ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.

Feel the LOVE. Oh, what compassion.

Why should anyone have compassion for you? you don't even love
yourself.

I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!

Yes, you enjoy misfortune of humans while pretending to be compassionate
for animals. I don't expect the light to go on in your head about what's
wrong with that picture because you're mentally ill.

Typical abuser, doesn't mind abusing defenseless people and creatures,
but when he gets abused he cries like a baby, how sick is that jon?

It will be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at you
and tell you that they don't have to be told by YOU what to do.

Fortunately, medical professionals tend to be a lot more compassionate
than AR/vegan activists.

Very lucky for you then, you obese, pygmy, lard arse dwarf. Personally
I'd let you die slowly in your own juices, scum like you don't deserve
anything else.

You anti-vegetarians force meat on your kids.

Offer a kid the choice between meat and broccoli and he's more likely to
take the meat.

You force it on people
in public schools and universities and government.

Nobody forces anyone to eat certain kinds of food. Most institutions
offer choices, and many even cater to individuals with specific
religious, cultural, or medical needs. ARAs/vegans are the only group
attempting to force anything on anyone. Meat sells because that's what
people want to eat.

Your advertising is forced in our face everywhere.

Just shut off your ****ing television if it bothers you so much, asshole.

And you force YOUR beliefs and YOUR behaviors on animals
by forcing THEM to do what you want -- suffer and die in
a cage -- for your trivial little lust for burgers.

Tastes aren't trivial. Most of them are formed over many, many years of
evolution.

Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life,

Treat them the way you *think* they treat animals? Two wrongs make it
right, huh.

Oh yes they do, in your case.

or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke,

Feel the love...

Getting worried fatty?

They say it's a horrible, slow death.

is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your
heads.

Why can't you just learn to be tolerant of others, pencil dick?

Because your intolerance of animals and others cannot be allowed to
continue, pervert. next you'll be asking us if it's OK to fiddle with
your children, well it's not fatso.






**********************************************




'You can't win 'em all.'
Lord Haw Haw.

Since I stopped donating money to CONservation hooligan charities
Like the RSPB, Woodland Trust and all the other fat cat charities
I am in the top 0.801% richest people in the world.
There are 5,951,930,035 people poorer than me

If you're really interested I am the 48,069,965
richest person in the world.

And I'm keeping the bloody lot.

So sue me.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

Newsgroup ettiquette

1) Tell everyone the Trolls don't bother you.
2) Say you've killfiled them, yet continue to respond.
3) Tell other people off who repsond despite doing so yourself.
4) Continually talk about Trolls while maintaining
they're having no effect.
5) Publicly post killfile rules so the Trolls know
how to avoid them.
6) Make lame legal threats and other barrel scraping
manoeuvres when your abuse reports are ignored.
7) Eat vast quantities of pies.
8) Forget to brush your teeth for several decades.
9) Help a demon.local poster with their email while
secretly reading it.
10) Pretend you're a hard ******* when in fact you're
as bent as a roundabout.
11) Become the laughing stock of Usenet like Mabbet
12) Die of old age
13) Keep paying Dr Chartham his fees and hope one day you
will have a penis the girls can see.

---------------------------------------

"If you would'nt talk to them in a bar, don't *uckin' vote for them"

"Australia was not *discovered* it was invaded"
The Big Yin.

(piddock) wrote in message . com...
"rick etter" wrote in message news:clWpb.1601
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!

ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.
I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!

That's not very compassionate. What's the point in having a respect
for life (all life) if you tell someone that you wish they would drop
dead from a heart attack?

I may get flamed for saying this, but isn't a human life of more value
than a cow's? It is in my opinion. Why would you be happy if Rick died
but sad when a cow died?

I've been reading/posting to this group on and off and I know Rick
posts things that make people angry and seems to stir people up, but
you shouldn't let him get under your skin. He just has a different
opinion than other people here, even if he is deliberately trying to
get reactions.

He's correct that animals die from all kinds of food production. Even
when I went to go pick wild dewberries with my dad in the field, we
had to wash all the caterpillars and other bugs off of them when we
got home. A few berries were discarded because I saw caterpillars
crawl out of them. I may have even eaten some of them without knowing
it, though I think most of the berries were clean (I broke many of
them in half to make sure *L*).

A lot of the produce we buy at the store is also contaminated with
insects that we may unknowingly eat. And yeah, sometimes rats and mice
get chopped up during harvesting and processing of grains.

I don't think it's as big of a deal as Rick makes it out to be (I
mean, we are talking pests, mostly, and compassionate to animals or
not, pests need to be dealt with or they will ruin our food and spread
disease). Personally I feel that vegetable production is at least less
directly harmful to animals, not that it doesn't directly harm them,
but that the intent isn't to harm animals (just a thought). Also we
all need to eat plants to live and we don't all need to eat meat to
live. So it's not like we can stop supporting the vegetable farmers
altogether, and they do an important job, not only feeding us but also
people in third world countries.

Also a lot of food is grown for animal feed and I'm sure that a
certain amount of insects/rats/mice get killed in that process so I
don't see how choosing to eat meat reduces cruelty, especially when
the direct source of the food is an animal's death. Even "organic" or
"free range" meat producers need suitable fields for grazing.

It is wrong however to say that your lifestyle is free from animal
use/exploitation. We all rely on animals to one degree or another.
Vegans IMO probably harm animals the least, despite Ritter's points
having some truth to them.

It will be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at you
and tell you that they don't have to be told by YOU what to do.


Why would it be hilarious for the medical staff to laugh at him? I
doubt they'd be laughing at him anyway. They'd be treating their
patient. Also they would have to do what he told them to do, as a
patient has a right to refuse any treatment they want.

You anti-vegetarians force meat on your kids. You force it on people
in public schools and universities and government. Your advertising
is forced in our face everywhere.


Meat eating is the way that humans have lived since before we were
humans. I don't really see that as "forcing" it on the kids. I'm sure
a lot of parents who tell their kids to eat their meat even if they
don't want to just want their kids to be nourished and are concerned
for them. It's a parent's job to help their child grow up to be as
strong and healthy as possible, and most people grew up learning that
2-3 servings of meat daily was a dietary need.

It's hard to un-program that, especially when you get the occasional
news story of "Vegan" or "Vegetarian" parents who deprived their
children of the proper nutrition because of an overly restrictive
diet, and ended up with a death or severe sickness as a result.

Now most of us in this group realize that a vegetarian, or even a
vegan diet, can be nourishing and healthy, if done correctly. That's
all well and good, but we can't expect everyone in the world to
understand that. You can only control what you eat, and what you
decide to do.

Public schools and universities don't grab people and shove meat down
their throats by force. There is such a thing as a bagged lunch. In a
university, you can just go off campus and head to a veg. restaurant
if you want for lunch. Most people want to eat meat and therefore meat
is provided there. If meat wasn't provided, then people would have to
go off campus for lunch or bring a bagged lunch, because most people
don't want to go vegetarian. That would be catering to the minority at
the expense of the majority if meat wasn't available. Now if there's
ever a time when meat eating is in the minority, then there may be a
better case for not having it available.

Advertising shouldn't bother you as much as it does! Most people enjoy
going to restaurants and eating "Kentucky fried chicken." or a
flame-grilled "Whataburger" or a cheesy "Domino's pizza." Therefore
there will continue to be commercials promoting these foods as long as
there is a strong market for them. If the commercials bother you so
much, does that mean they're tempting you? Change the channel for a
second or turn off the tv, if you don't want to be tempted to eat
those things. If those foods hold no appeal for you, then I don't see
how they can be any more annoying than the "1-800-Collect" commercials
that are starting to get very overplayed.

And you force YOUR beliefs and YOUR behaviors on animals
by forcing THEM to do what you want -- suffer and die in
a cage -- for your trivial little lust for burgers.

We all use animals to one degree or another. I don't think it makes
someone a terrible person if they want to eat meat. They're just like
most people around the world, and through history. They've grown up
with it, acquired a strong taste for it, etc. And to be honest most of
the animals don't suffer as much as PETA would have you believe anyway
(I do acknowledge that they suffer). Even "Factory farms" have the
animals grazing in open fields for most of their lives until they get
to the finishing lots. Now I fully understand not wanting to support
the slaughter of animals for meat but the only one you can control is
you.

Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life,
or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke,
is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your
heads.

That makes you sound like a fanatic. Vegans and even vegetarians have
a bad reputation for being fanatical, for hating humans and loving
animals more than humans. Wouldn't it be much better to ignore him, or
to be kind to him, rather than to seem so vicious?

-Rubystars

Rubystars wrote:
(piddock) wrote in message . com...

"rick etter" wrote in message news:clWpb.1601

ROTFLMAO What a hoot!

ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.
I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!


That's not very compassionate. What's the point in having a respect
for life (all life) if you tell someone that you wish they would drop
dead from a heart attack?

He *doesn't* have a respect for all life. "vegans" are
following a spurious hate-based philosophy.


I may get flamed for saying this, but isn't a human life of more value
than a cow's? It is in my opinion. Why would you be happy if Rick died
but sad when a cow died?

As a perversely racist and speciesist bigot, he *would*
be happy in that development.

....


Also a lot of food is grown for animal feed and I'm sure that a
certain amount of insects/rats/mice get killed in that process so I
don't see how choosing to eat meat reduces cruelty,

It *could* reduce it, depending on the diet followed by
the typical "vegan". Whether or not it does is
irrelevant. "vegans" make an outlandish claim, and the
hypothetical case Rick presents demolishes the claim.

....

"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
(piddock) wrote in message
. com...
"rick etter" wrote in message news:clWpb.1601
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!

ROTFLMAO!! What a ****ing liar, you are!
I can hardly wait until you get your first heart attack.
I will jump for joy when you suffer and drop dead!

That's not very compassionate. What's the point in having a respect
for life (all life) if you tell someone that you wish they would drop
dead from a heart attack?

I may get flamed for saying this, but isn't a human life of more value
than a cow's? It is in my opinion. Why would you be happy if Rick died
but sad when a cow died?

I've been reading/posting to this group on and off and I know Rick
posts things that make people angry and seems to stir people up, but
you shouldn't let him get under your skin. He just has a different
opinion than other people here, even if he is deliberately trying to
get reactions.
=================
Nope. Deliberatly trying to expose vegan ignorance and delusions.



He's correct that animals die from all kinds of food production. Even
when I went to go pick wild dewberries with my dad in the field, we
had to wash all the caterpillars and other bugs off of them when we
got home. A few berries were discarded because I saw caterpillars
crawl out of them. I may have even eaten some of them without knowing
it, though I think most of the berries were clean (I broke many of
them in half to make sure *L*).

A lot of the produce we buy at the store is also contaminated with
insects that we may unknowingly eat. And yeah, sometimes rats and mice
get chopped up during harvesting and processing of grains.
==================
Millions and milllions. Plus the ones that are poisoned. Plus the ones
that die for energy production in the petro-chemical industry that supports
your veggies lifestyle.


I don't think it's as big of a deal as Rick makes it out to be (I
mean, we are talking pests, mostly, and compassionate to animals or
not, pests need to be dealt with or they will ruin our food and spread
disease).
===========================
The 'pests' I'm talking about are mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, and
amphibians. Why are small mammals of less imporatance to vegans than cows,
pigs, chickens? Now, if you want to add bugs to the list of animals that
die for food, bring it on. You'll lose that numbers game for sure, hands
down.


Personally I feel that vegetable production is at least less
directly harmful to animals, not that it doesn't directly harm them,
but that the intent isn't to harm animals (just a thought).
========================
Doesn't directly harm them? Are you kidding? tell that to the massive
numbers of animals that are deliberatly poisoned just to keep your veggies
clean, cheap, and convenient.


Also we
all need to eat plants to live and we don't all need to eat meat to
live.
========================
Yes, you do. Meat has nutrients that you cannot get from veggies, despite
the delusional claims of others.
So, many vegans take supplements. Where do these come from, manna from
heaven? Their production is just another part of the death machine for
vegans.



So it's not like we can stop supporting the vegetable farmers
altogether, and they do an important job, not only feeding us but also
people in third world countries.
====================
We're not talking about feeding the world, just the hypocritical vegan
loons. They make the claims that they care. They are the ones that *could*
stop supporting farmers, but like you, most are too lazy and too consumer
oriented to make the changes needed to actually live up to your stated
goals.



Also a lot of food is grown for animal feed and I'm sure that a
certain amount of insects/rats/mice get killed in that process so I
don't see how choosing to eat meat reduces cruelty, especially when
the direct source of the food is an animal's death. Even "organic" or
"free range" meat producers need suitable fields for grazing.
=====================
And grazing kills what other animals? I suppose you crop fields are just
there by magic?



It is wrong however to say that your lifestyle is free from animal
use/exploitation. We all rely on animals to one degree or another.
Vegans IMO probably harm animals the least, despite Ritter's points
having some truth to them.
=======================
A claim that vegans have neverbeen able to back up with any kind of proof.
I can, however show you where millions and millions of animals die in
particular phases of crop agriculture.


snippage...



Throwing you in prison for the rest of your life,
or leaving you to die if you get a heart attack or stroke,
is the ONLY way to get your type to get this point through your
heads.

That makes you sound like a fanatic. Vegans and even vegetarians have
a bad reputation for being fanatical, for hating humans and loving
animals more than humans. Wouldn't it be much better to ignore him, or
to be kind to him, rather than to seem so vicious?
======================
He can't. His hatred is all he has. He knows his 'ethics' are a sham. so
he has to hate those that remind him of that fact.



-Rubystars

Why do some readers of this group assume all vegans have (or think
they have) a certain level of compassion, or eat according to their
moral philosophy? That's like assuming anyone who's Christian is
Christian because they want to go to heaven. It's a rather random
assumption. This is a diet-related newsgroup by name. Everything else
is assumption.

"rick etter" wrote in message ...
"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
(piddock) wrote in message
. com...
"rick etter" wrote in message news:clWpb.1601

snip lots of stuff

I just want to remind you Rick that I'm not a vegan and I'm not even a
vegetarian yet, though I eat a lot less meat than I used to. I think
most of what PETA says is pure BS, but I'm also skeptical of what you
are saying. I don't think anyone has the complete truth. I do think
that it's common sense that if you really have a moral objection to
eating meat you shouldn't do it.

Rats and mice are pests, and there's no shortage of them (quite the
contrary). I don't think they should be tortured, but I don't see how
getting chopped up in a machine (a harvester or a grain processor)
could possibly be worse than the rat poison, coca cola, and flour
mixed with concrete they're subjected to when they invade people's
properties. It's probably a LOT more humane than that.

I think what a lot of vegetarians object to is the fact that animals
are raised for the express purpose of killing them. I don't really
have a problem with that, if the animals are treated humanely in life
and killed with little pain.
However I do think that it's sad that people eat as much meat as they
do. It's really not necessary to eat meat 3 or more times a day, and
it's not healthy either. I may or may not go vegetarian later but I
don't think that I'm going to be increasing animal suffering if I
choose to do that. I really don't.

The reason I replied though is that I was surprised at the fanatical
responses you're getting. I guess I shouldn't be though. I knew if I
thought someone was saying things to get a rise out of me I'd probably
ignore them.


He can't. His hatred is all he has. He knows his 'ethics' are a sham. so
he has to hate those that remind him of that fact.

I just think that if he wants to put a postive face on vegetarianism
or veganism that he should treat other people nicely, even those he
isn't fond of. I know that's not always easy and some flaming back and
forth is probably permissible (since this is Usenet) but telling
someone to drop dead from a heart attack goes way too far, IMO. I
mean, we are talking about food here, it's not THAT darn important.

-Rubystars

"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
"rick etter" wrote in message
...
"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
(piddock) wrote in message
. com...
"rick etter" wrote in message
news:clWpb.1601

snip lots of stuff

I just want to remind you Rick that I'm not a vegan and I'm not even a
vegetarian yet, though I eat a lot less meat than I used to. I think
most of what PETA says is pure BS, but I'm also skeptical of what you
are saying. I don't think anyone has the complete truth. I do think
that it's common sense that if you really have a moral objection to
eating meat you shouldn't do it.
================
Then don't. Nobody has ever said that anyone here *has* to eat meat. The
reverse cannot be said of vegan loons here though. Just don't try to tell
everyone it's because you're 'saving' animals.


Rats and mice are pests, and there's no shortage of them (quite the
contrary).
==================
Ther's no shortage of cows or chickens either. Is that the only critiria
you have? Or is it just their size makes them less important as far as
animal death and suffering are concerned?


I don't think they should be tortured, but I don't see how
getting chopped up in a machine (a harvester or a grain processor)
could possibly be worse than the rat poison, coca cola, and flour
mixed with concrete they're subjected to when they invade people's
properties. It's probably a LOT more humane than that.
======================
Why these comparisons? the one you should be comparing them to are the
animals that die in slaughterhouses.
I'd say that those animals die a more humane death than any of the ones you
mentioned.



I think what a lot of vegetarians object to is the fact that animals
are raised for the express purpose of killing them. I don't really
have a problem with that, if the animals are treated humanely in life
and killed with little pain.
====================
As many are. The problem is your crop fields are just the ticket for fast
population explosions of many animals. You can say they are raised
expressly because of your food production. Increases that would not occur
without your crops providing easy food and cover. then, just when the
populations are at their peak, you take away all the food and cover. What
do you think happens to these animals, that they just mosey over to the
next field that's cut down? They are left without food and cover to die
from starvation and predation. they all can't just go into the surrounding
area because those areas will already be at their carrying capacity.


However I do think that it's sad that people eat as much meat as they
do.
======================
Do you really know how much? Or are you just guessing with your delusions
from PeTA and their ilk? Even the typical American diet contains far more
plant material than meats. About 200lbs of meat. about 400lbs of veggies,
200lbs of grains and cerials, and 100lbs of fruit. There is also 500+lbs of
dairy, but that's neither meat nor veggie.


It's really not necessary to eat meat 3 or more times a day, and
it's not healthy either. I may or may not go vegetarian later but I
don't think that I'm going to be increasing animal suffering if I
choose to do that. I really don't.
====================
But you refuse to even consider that as a possibility, nor will you even try
to check it out, will you? Why? Afraid of what you'll discover?
That's also part of the point. Vegans won't even try to determine which of
their own foods cause less or more animals death and suffering. They just
assume that it's all nice and cruelty free.


The reason I replied though is that I was surprised at the fanatical
responses you're getting. I guess I shouldn't be though. I knew if I
thought someone was saying things to get a rise out of me I'd probably
ignore them.
========================
Nope. I'm not replying to get a 'rise' out of any body. I just want to
present the truth. Something vegans are ashamed of apparently since all
they spew are lys and delusions.



He can't. His hatred is all he has. He knows his 'ethics' are a sham.
so
he has to hate those that remind him of that fact.

I just think that if he wants to put a postive face on vegetarianism
or veganism that he should treat other people nicely, even those he
isn't fond of. I know that's not always easy and some flaming back and
forth is probably permissible (since this is Usenet) but telling
someone to drop dead from a heart attack goes way too far, IMO. I
mean, we are talking about food here, it's not THAT darn important.
=====================
But that's part of the point. Vegans will claim that their diet 'saves' all
those animals. They've never checked it out, and can't prove it, but they
make the claims anyway. the fact is, their, and your, and my diets are far
from having the greatest impact on animal death and suffering. There are
far more things in our lifestyles that contribute to animal death and
suffering than just from whatever we eat. case in point, your posts to
usenet are not cruelty free.


-Rubystars

"rick etter" wrote in message ...
"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
"rick etter" wrote in message
...
"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
(piddock) wrote in message
. com...
"rick etter" wrote in message
news:clWpb.1601

snip lots of stuff

I just want to remind you Rick that I'm not a vegan and I'm not even a
vegetarian yet, though I eat a lot less meat than I used to. I think
most of what PETA says is pure BS, but I'm also skeptical of what you
are saying. I don't think anyone has the complete truth. I do think
that it's common sense that if you really have a moral objection to
eating meat you shouldn't do it.
================
Then don't. Nobody has ever said that anyone here *has* to eat meat. The
reverse cannot be said of vegan loons here though. Just don't try to tell
everyone it's because you're 'saving' animals.

I don't know what the numbers come out to, but

Rats and mice are pests, and there's no shortage of them (quite the
contrary).
==================
Ther's no shortage of cows or chickens either. Is that the only critiria
you have? Or is it just their size makes them less important as far as
animal death and suffering are concerned?

Size doesn't have anything to do with it. Show me a 30 foot cockroach
and I'll need a big-ass can of RAID. With that said, I think people
have the right to decide which animals they value over others. Dogs,
cats, and horses mean a LOT more to me than some chicken on a farm,
for example. Everyone has different values, so if someone values cows
and chickens over rats, then so be it. The only thing that really
****es me off is when people value humans lower than other animals.


I don't think they should be tortured, but I don't see how
getting chopped up in a machine (a harvester or a grain processor)
could possibly be worse than the rat poison, coca cola, and flour
mixed with concrete they're subjected to when they invade people's
properties. It's probably a LOT more humane than that.
======================
Why these comparisons? the one you should be comparing them to are the
animals that die in slaughterhouses.
I'd say that those animals die a more humane death than any of the ones you
mentioned.

I'm comparing them to the other rats because rats are pests. If
they're allowed to live where we are, they spread disease and spoil
food and chew holes in our dwellings. I don't want them to suffer any
more than I do any other animal, but if you're going to kill a rat a
harvester doesn't sound like the worst thing that could happen to it.
And unfortunately rats do need to be killed when they're causing
problems.

Animals that die in slaughterhouses are often killed humanely but
sometimes they're not. I'm not getting that from some ARA web site
either, I've been reading guidelines on how to slaughter cows and the
idea of "return to sensibility" is covered. Apparently sometimes after
the animals are stunned they can come back around and be in pain and
have to be stunned again.

I think what a lot of vegetarians object to is the fact that animals
are raised for the express purpose of killing them. I don't really
have a problem with that, if the animals are treated humanely in life
and killed with little pain.
====================
As many are. The problem is your crop fields are just the ticket for fast
population explosions of many animals. You can say they are raised
expressly because of your food production. Increases that would not occur
without your crops providing easy food and cover.
then, just when the
populations are at their peak, you take away all the food and cover. What
do you think happens to these animals, that they just mosey over to the
next field that's cut down? They are left without food and cover to die
from starvation and predation. they all can't just go into the surrounding
area because those areas will already be at their carrying capacity.

This happens throughout nature though, species tend to have more young
than can survive. Just look at a Tasmanian devil mother. She has many
offspring that are born, around 30, but only two nipples. The rest
starve, die of exposure, or are licked up by the mother.

Humans don't deliberately raise rats in crop fields, but rats have
adapted to the new environment there, and it has been beneficial to
the species as a whole.

However I do think that it's sad that people eat as much meat as they
do.
======================
Do you really know how much? Or are you just guessing with your delusions
from PeTA and their ilk? Even the typical American diet contains far more
plant material than meats. About 200lbs of meat. about 400lbs of veggies,
200lbs of grains and cerials, and 100lbs of fruit. There is also 500+lbs of
dairy, but that's neither meat nor veggie.

I have little to no respect for PETA. They may do a good thing every
once in a while but on the whole I think they do more harm than good,
mostly by confusing the public in regards to what is "Animal Rights"
and what is "Animal Welfare." Animal welfarists have to deal with
people who think that they're just like the PETA folks.

I'm in favor of animal use, just not abuse.

It's really not necessary to eat meat 3 or more times a day, and
it's not healthy either. I may or may not go vegetarian later but I
don't think that I'm going to be increasing animal suffering if I
choose to do that. I really don't.
====================
But you refuse to even consider that as a possibility, nor will you even try
to check it out, will you? Why? Afraid of what you'll discover?
That's also part of the point. Vegans won't even try to determine which of
their own foods cause less or more animals death and suffering. They just
assume that it's all nice and cruelty free.

Most people can't follow a vegan diet because it's so much of a
hassle. As an experiment I tried to do it for two weeks and there was
almost NOTHING at the regular grocery store that was free of animal
products. All the breakfast cereals and pancake mixes had whey, for
example. Breads either had whey or egg glaze, or something else
similar to that. Almost everything you can think of that doesn't have
meat in it has some milk, honey, or eggs, or a derivative thereof.

It made me realize why those who try to go on such a diet and don't do
it correctly, by finding the right balance of nutrients and using
supplementation, can really make themselves malnourished.

With all that in mind, it made me realize that those who do follow a
vegan diet do it because they really have a commitment to their
beliefs. It takes effort to find vegan-friendly foods! If I was to do
it out here, I'd have to go to a health food store just to find enough
of them. And God only knows how much money that would cost.
(Vegetarian foods are pretty easy though.)

Add that on to the lifestyle changes that many vegans make to reduce
their consumption of animal products, for example, leather shoes
(which, by the way, were the only pair I could find that fit me at
Wal-Mart), wool sweaters (Wool stays warm even when wet, but they must
use alternative materials), seashell jewelry, paintbrushes made with
hair, among other things.

My point is that they must, by necessity, put so much research and
effort into living their lifestyle that it seems sad for you to refer
to them as lazy or unmotivated. I agree with you that they are not
eliminating totally their impact on animals, but I think with all
that, they must at least be reducing it.


The reason I replied though is that I was surprised at the fanatical
responses you're getting. I guess I shouldn't be though. I knew if I
thought someone was saying things to get a rise out of me I'd probably
ignore them.
========================
Nope. I'm not replying to get a 'rise' out of any body. I just want to
present the truth. Something vegans are ashamed of apparently since all
they spew are lys and delusions.

I'm skeptical of both sides, Rick. Maybe you just have a different way
of viewing the situation than they do, though. I think they do the
best they can with the knowledge and resources they have. I think it's
unreasonable to pretend like they are not causing animal deaths, I
agree with you on that. However, I think it's unreasonable to ask
people to further restrict an already heavily restrictive diet and
lifestyle and to expect people who are already heavily committed to
become more so. There's only so much the average person can do, and
most of these people have gone beyond average as far as going out of
their way to follow this lifestyle.

No one's perfect. Is it a lie that they're free of animal
exploitation? Yes, it's a lie! I agree with you there. That doesn't
mean they aren't doing something good for animals.

But that's part of the point. Vegans will claim that their diet 'saves' all
those animals. They've never checked it out, and can't prove it, but they
make the claims anyway. the fact is, their, and your, and my diets are far
from having the greatest impact on animal death and suffering. There are
far more things in our lifestyles that contribute to animal death and
suffering than just from whatever we eat. case in point, your posts to
usenet are not cruelty free.

Yeah I know that. The way I see it though, communication really helps
a lot of humans, so that's pretty important in itself. I guess there
are trade offs in everything.

-Rubystars

On 8 Nov 2003 08:08:01 -0800, (Rubystars)
wrote:

"rick etter" wrote in message ...
"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
"rick etter" wrote in message
...
"Rubystars" wrote in message
om...
(piddock) wrote in message
. com...
"rick etter" wrote in message
news:clWpb.1601

snip lots of stuff

I just want to remind you Rick that I'm not a vegan and I'm not even a
vegetarian yet, though I eat a lot less meat than I used to. I think
most of what PETA says is pure BS, but I'm also skeptical of what you
are saying. I don't think anyone has the complete truth. I do think
that it's common sense that if you really have a moral objection to
eating meat you shouldn't do it.
================
Then don't. Nobody has ever said that anyone here *has* to eat meat. The
reverse cannot be said of vegan loons here though. Just don't try to tell
everyone it's because you're 'saving' animals.

I don't know what the numbers come out to, but

Rats and mice are pests, and there's no shortage of them (quite the
contrary).
==================
Ther's no shortage of cows or chickens either. Is that the only critiria
you have? Or is it just their size makes them less important as far as
animal death and suffering are concerned?

Size doesn't have anything to do with it. Show me a 30 foot cockroach
and I'll need a big-ass can of RAID. With that said, I think people
have the right to decide which animals they value over others. Dogs,
cats, and horses mean a LOT more to me than some chicken on a farm,
for example. Everyone has different values, so if someone values cows
and chickens over rats, then so be it. The only thing that really
****es me off is when people value humans lower than other animals.

Then you are an arse. No one needs to make any such comparisons but a
fool. We can live quite happily side, by side with animals, we do NOT
need to eat them, we do NOT need to abuse them. just because a rat is
a rat doesn't mean we have a right to kill it on a whim, 90% of pest
control is pre-emptive and completely unnecessary. It's like banning
cars to save children from being run over, borne of stupidity and
ignorance, that people seem to thrive on.
Fact is if we were not such a dirty, lazy shits then rats and
cockroaches would not be a problem. I know I am living quite happily
wth no pest control measures in my life at all and always will.

I don't think they should be tortured, but I don't see how
getting chopped up in a machine (a harvester or a grain processor)
could possibly be worse than the rat poison, coca cola, and flour
mixed with concrete they're subjected to when they invade people's
properties. It's probably a LOT more humane than that.
======================
Why these comparisons? the one you should be comparing them to are the
animals that die in slaughterhouses.
I'd say that those animals die a more humane death than any of the ones you
mentioned.

I'm comparing them to the other rats because rats are pests.

So are humans.

If
they're allowed to live where we are,

They do live here already, that will never change.

they spread disease and spoil
food and chew holes in our dwellings.

Onl;y when dirty humans let them.

I don't want them to suffer any
more than I do any other animal, but if you're going to kill a rat a
harvester doesn't sound like the worst thing that could happen to it.
And unfortunately rats do need to be killed when they're causing
problems.

No they don't, the problem is the dirty human.

Animals that die in slaughterhouses are often killed humanely but
sometimes they're not. I'm not getting that from some ARA web site
either, I've been reading guidelines on how to slaughter cows and the
idea of "return to sensibility" is covered. Apparently sometimes after
the animals are stunned they can come back around and be in pain and
have to be stunned again.

Indeed. It's cruel and the ultimate abuse of an animal.

I think what a lot of vegetarians object to is the fact that animals
are raised for the express purpose of killing them. I don't really
have a problem with that, if the animals are treated humanely in life
and killed with little pain.
====================
As many are. The problem is your crop fields are just the ticket for fast
population explosions of many animals. You can say they are raised
expressly because of your food production. Increases that would not occur
without your crops providing easy food and cover.
then, just when the
populations are at their peak, you take away all the food and cover. What
do you think happens to these animals, that they just mosey over to the
next field that's cut down? They are left without food and cover to die
from starvation and predation. they all can't just go into the surrounding
area because those areas will already be at their carrying capacity.

This happens throughout nature though, species tend to have more young
than can survive. Just look at a Tasmanian devil mother. She has many
offspring that are born, around 30, but only two nipples. The rest
starve, die of exposure, or are licked up by the mother.

Humans don't deliberately raise rats in crop fields, but rats have
adapted to the new environment there, and it has been beneficial to
the species as a whole.

However I do think that it's sad that people eat as much meat as they
do.
======================
Do you really know how much? Or are you just guessing with your delusions
from PeTA and their ilk? Even the typical American diet contains far more
plant material than meats. About 200lbs of meat. about 400lbs of veggies,
200lbs of grains and cerials, and 100lbs of fruit. There is also 500+lbs of
dairy, but that's neither meat nor veggie.

I have little to no respect for PETA. They may do a good thing every
once in a while but on the whole I think they do more harm than good,
mostly by confusing the public in regards to what is "Animal Rights"
and what is "Animal Welfare." Animal welfarists have to deal with
people who think that they're just like the PETA folks.

I'm in favor of animal use, just not abuse.

It's really not necessary to eat meat 3 or more times a day, and
it's not healthy either. I may or may not go vegetarian later but I
don't think that I'm going to be increasing animal suffering if I
choose to do that. I really don't.
====================
But you refuse to even consider that as a possibility, nor will you even try
to check it out, will you? Why? Afraid of what you'll discover?
That's also part of the point. Vegans won't even try to determine which of
their own foods cause less or more animals death and suffering. They just
assume that it's all nice and cruelty free.

Most people can't follow a vegan diet because it's so much of a
hassle. As an experiment I tried to do it for two weeks and there was
almost NOTHING at the regular grocery store that was free of animal
products.

It's how we have been conditioned, do you not see that?

All the breakfast cereals and pancake mixes had whey, for
example. Breads either had whey or egg glaze, or something else
similar to that. Almost everything you can think of that doesn't have
meat in it has some milk, honey, or eggs, or a derivative thereof.

Rubbish. A veggie diet is well catered for today, but no excuse for
being lazy and doing your own food preparations.

It made me realize why those who try to go on such a diet and don't do
it correctly, by finding the right balance of nutrients and using
supplementation, can really make themselves malnourished.

With all that in mind, it made me realize that those who do follow a
vegan diet do it because they really have a commitment to their
beliefs. It takes effort to find vegan-friendly foods! If I was to do
it out here, I'd have to go to a health food store just to find enough
of them. And God only knows how much money that would cost.
(Vegetarian foods are pretty easy though.)

No one said caring for yourself and the planet was easy.

Add that on to the lifestyle changes that many vegans make to reduce
their consumption of animal products, for example, leather shoes
(which, by the way, were the only pair I could find that fit me at
Wal-Mart), wool sweaters (Wool stays warm even when wet, but they must
use alternative materials), seashell jewelry, paintbrushes made with
hair, among other things.

My point is that they must, by necessity, put so much research and
effort into living their lifestyle that it seems sad for you to refer
to them as lazy or unmotivated. I agree with you that they are not
eliminating totally their impact on animals, but I think with all
that, they must at least be reducing it.

Indeed, one can but try their best. Fat slugs like no balls have an
agenda and nothing will change their minds.


The reason I replied though is that I was surprised at the fanatical
responses you're getting. I guess I shouldn't be though. I knew if I
thought someone was saying things to get a rise out of me I'd probably
ignore them.
========================
Nope. I'm not replying to get a 'rise' out of any body. I just want to
present the truth. Something vegans are ashamed of apparently since all
they spew are lys and delusions.

I'm skeptical of both sides, Rick.

Rick is a dick.

Maybe you just have a different way
of viewing the situation than they do, though. I think they do the
best they can with the knowledge and resources they have. I think it's
unreasonable to pretend like they are not causing animal deaths, I
agree with you on that. However, I think it's unreasonable to ask
people to further restrict an already heavily restrictive diet and
lifestyle and to expect people who are already heavily committed to
become more so. There's only so much the average person can do, and
most of these people have gone beyond average as far as going out of
their way to follow this lifestyle.

No one's perfect. Is it a lie that they're free of animal
exploitation? Yes, it's a lie! I agree with you there. That doesn't
mean they aren't doing something good for animals.

But that's part of the point. Vegans will claim that their diet 'saves' all
those animals. They've never checked it out, and can't prove it, but they
make the claims anyway. the fact is, their, and your, and my diets are far
from having the greatest impact on animal death and suffering. There are
far more things in our lifestyles that contribute to animal death and
suffering than just from whatever we eat. case in point, your posts to
usenet are not cruelty free.

Yeah I know that. The way I see it though, communication really helps
a lot of humans, so that's pretty important in itself. I guess there
are trade offs in everything.

-Rubystars




**********************************************




'You can't win 'em all.'
Lord Haw Haw.

Since I stopped donating money to CONservation hooligan charities
Like the RSPB, Woodland Trust and all the other fat cat charities
I am in the top 0.801% richest people in the world.
There are 5,951,930,035 people poorer than me

If you're really interested I am the 48,069,965
richest person in the world.

And I'm keeping the bloody lot.

So sue me.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

Newsgroup ettiquette

1) Tell everyone the Trolls don't bother you.
2) Say you've killfiled them, yet continue to respond.
3) Tell other people off who repsond despite doing so yourself.
4) Continually talk about Trolls while maintaining
they're having no effect.
5) Publicly post killfile rules so the Trolls know
how to avoid them.
6) Make lame legal threats and other barrel scraping
manoeuvres when your abuse reports are ignored.
7) Eat vast quantities of pies.
8) Forget to brush your teeth for several decades.
9) Help a demon.local poster with their email while
secretly reading it.
10) Pretend you're a hard ******* when in fact you're
as bent as a roundabout.
11) Become the laughing stock of Usenet like Mabbet
12) Die of old age
13) Keep paying Dr Chartham his fees and hope one day you
will have a penis the girls can see.

---------------------------------------

"If you would'nt talk to them in a bar, don't *uckin' vote for them"

"Australia was not *discovered* it was invaded"
The Big Yin.

LoadofSnot wrote:
Size doesn't have anything to do with it. Show me a 30 foot cockroach
and I'll need a big-ass can of RAID. With that said, I think people
have the right to decide which animals they value over others. Dogs,
cats, and horses mean a LOT more to me than some chicken on a farm,
for example. Everyone has different values, so if someone values cows
and chickens over rats, then so be it. The only thing that really
****es me off is when people value humans lower than other animals.

Then you are an arse. No one needs to make any such comparisons but a
fool.

You do it all the time. Fool.

We can live quite happily side, by side with animals, we do NOT
need to eat them,

Many people like the way they taste. Meat is food.

we do NOT need to abuse them.

We're not talking about abusing them, just keeping their populations at
manageable, tolerable levels.

just because a rat is
a rat doesn't mean we have a right to kill it on a whim,

Yes, we do.

90% of pest control is pre-emptive and completely unnecessary.

According to whom?

It's like banning