On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:02:22 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:

[...]
Then why do you use the argument that vegans don't "provide life" for
livestock as if it's a shortcoming? If this fact doesn't imply a loss of any
sort, then what exactly is the meaning of the argument?

For one thing veg*ns lie and try to create the false impression that
veg*nism helps farm animals, when in fact it does *nothing!* for farm
animals. The following lies are directed at children, in the hopes of
shaping their beliefs asap. At some point in life a person makes a
choice of what they want to belief about particular issues and "ARAs"
want to create the false belief in children that veg*nism helps animals,
knowing that if they can do it the natural human tendency to resist
considering they made the wrong choice, will cause them to cling to
the belief they originally chose due to PeTA disinformation:
__________________________________________________ _______
Here you come to save the day!
[...]
And while Viacom and the dairy industries are counting
their cash, cows are counting on you to save them. Cows
make milk for their babies, not for people!
[...]
Please don't eat cheese or other dairy products. You'll
be saving some mother cows and their babies if you make
your life cheese-free!

http://www.peta-online.org/kids/kidaction.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
HOW CAN I HELP SAVE THE CHICKENS?

Life for chickens on factory farms is awful!
Chickens can feel things just as dogs and
cats do. Please help animals and stay healthy
by becoming a vegetarian! Call or write to
PETA for free recipes.

[...]

HOW CAN I HELP SAVE THE PIGS?

Pigs value their lives just as much as you
and I value ours. So please don't eat them!
Call or write to PETA for free animal-
friendly, vegetarian recipes.

http://www.peta-online.org/pdfs/Lchickid.pdf
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
For another thing, *some* people might want to contribute to
decent lives for farm animals with their diet. We know that "ARAs"
would hate to see that become popular, because it could destroy
any chances they have of eliminating domestic animals. It should
*always* be pointed out that veg*nism/"AR" would **eliminate**
farm animals--NOT do anything to help them--just in case some
people reading misunderstand.

wrote
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:02:22 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:

[...]
Then why do you use the argument that vegans don't "provide life" for
livestock as if it's a shortcoming? If this fact doesn't imply a loss of
any
sort, then what exactly is the meaning of the argument?

For one thing veg*ns lie and try to create the false impression that
veg*nism helps farm animals, when in fact it does *nothing!* for farm
animals.

Vegans do NOT lie about this, they *openly* advocate the elimination of
livestock species. This is NOT an ethical problem for them, there's nothing
inherently unethical or contradictory about it.

The following lies are directed at children, in the hopes of
shaping their beliefs asap.

Your response appears to be aimed at children, because no mature mind will
be misled by it.

At some point in life a person makes a
choice of what they want to belief about particular issues and "ARAs"
want to create the false belief in children that veg*nism helps animals,

"ARAs" help animals all the time, that's NOT a false impression.

knowing that if they can do it the natural human tendency to resist
considering they made the wrong choice, will cause them to cling to
the belief they originally chose due to PeTA disinformation:

What you describe is not disinformation. Anyone with a brain can see that
veganism means the end of livestock species. You aren't pointing out
anything of importance.


__________________________________________________ _______
Here you come to save the day!
[...]
And while Viacom and the dairy industries are counting
their cash, cows are counting on you to save them. Cows
make milk for their babies, not for people!
[...]
Please don't eat cheese or other dairy products. You'll
be saving some mother cows and their babies if you make
your life cheese-free!

http://www.peta-online.org/kids/kidaction.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
HOW CAN I HELP SAVE THE CHICKENS?

Life for chickens on factory farms is awful!
Chickens can feel things just as dogs and
cats do. Please help animals and stay healthy
by becoming a vegetarian! Call or write to
PETA for free recipes.

[...]

HOW CAN I HELP SAVE THE PIGS?

Pigs value their lives just as much as you
and I value ours. So please don't eat them!
Call or write to PETA for free animal-
friendly, vegetarian recipes.

http://www.peta-online.org/pdfs/Lchickid.pdf
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
For another thing, *some* people might want to contribute to
decent lives for farm animals with their diet.

Not you, we know that.

We know that "ARAs"
would hate to see that become popular,

No they wouldn't, ARAs *promote* animal friendly farming more than anyone.

because it could destroy
any chances they have of eliminating domestic animals.

No it wouldn't, people are quite likely to begin by choosing animal friendly
products then take the step of eliminating meat altogether.

It should
*always* be pointed out that veg*nism/"AR" would **eliminate**
farm animals--

Everybody know that, it's not important.

NOT do anything to help them--just in case some
people reading misunderstand.

That's an equivocation, the "them" that ARAs want to help are the living
ones, the "them" they want to eliminate are the species themselves. That's
those *unborn* who you don't advocate getting to experience life, remember?

I suppose you're too deeply involved in this theory of yours to understand
the lack of value in it.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:53:31 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:

What you describe is not disinformation. Anyone with a brain can see that
veganism means the end of livestock species. You aren't pointing out
anything of importance.

"ARAs" lie by saying that veg*nism saves animals and you like to see
them do it, so read this again:

__________________________________________________ _______
Here you come to save the day!
[...]
And while Viacom and the dairy industries are counting
their cash, cows are counting on you to save them. Cows
make milk for their babies, not for people!
[...]
Please don't eat cheese or other dairy products. You'll
be saving some mother cows and their babies if you make
your life cheese-free!

http://www.peta-online.org/kids/kidaction.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
HOW CAN I HELP SAVE THE CHICKENS?

Life for chickens on factory farms is awful!
Chickens can feel things just as dogs and
cats do. Please help animals and stay healthy
by becoming a vegetarian! Call or write to
PETA for free recipes.

[...]

HOW CAN I HELP SAVE THE PIGS?

Pigs value their lives just as much as you
and I value ours. So please don't eat them!
Call or write to PETA for free animal-
friendly, vegetarian recipes.

http://www.peta-online.org/pdfs/Lchickid.pdf
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
For another thing, *some* people might want to contribute to
decent lives for farm animals with their diet.

Not you, we know that.

You much much MUCH less. At least I point it out to people in case someone
reading might want to do it. You not only don't point it out, you oppose me for
pointing it out. That means that YOU are opposed to seeing anyone contribute
to decent lives for farm animals with their diet. There is no question about it!

We know that "ARAs"
would hate to see that become popular,

No they wouldn't, ARAs *promote* animal friendly farming more than anyone.

because it could destroy
any chances they have of eliminating domestic animals.

No it wouldn't, people are quite likely to begin by choosing animal friendly
products then take the step of eliminating meat altogether.

It should
*always* be pointed out that veg*nism/"AR" would **eliminate**
farm animals--

Everybody know that, it's not important.

We don't believe that "everybody" knows that. You do NOT want
everybody to know it. I very much DO want everybody to know. I want
everybody on the planet to know it, and keep it in mind every time they
here the gross mi$nomer "Animal Rights".

NOT do anything to help them--just in case some
people reading misunderstand.

That's an equivocation, the "them" that ARAs want to help are the living
ones, the "them" they want to eliminate are the species themselves. That's
those *unborn* who you don't advocate getting to experience life, remember?
__________________________________________________ _______
[...]
According to the Associated Press (AP) PETA killed 1325 dogs and cats
in Norfolk last year. That was more than half the number of animals is
took in during that period. According to Virginian-Pilot Reporter, Kerry
Dougherty, the execution rate at PETA's "shelter" far exceeds that of the
local Norfolk SPCA shelter where only a third of animals taken in are
"put down."
[...]
http://www.iwmc.org/newsletter/2000/2000-08g.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Web posted Friday, April 27, 2001
State Veterinarian, PETA Head Differ On Outbreak
[...]
On Thursday, Ingrid Newkirk, president of People for the Ethical Treatment
of Animals, renewed her claim that an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease
in the United States would benefit herds by sparing them from a tortured
existence and the slaughterhouse.

A PETA spokesman said it's inconceivable that anyone would fail to see
the sense of Newkirk's statements, which have rankled politicians and
livestock farmers from Texas to Canada.

[...]
In a telephone interview from Richmond, Va., Newkirk reiterated her
hope that foot-and-mouth -- which has ravaged herds in Europe -- reaches
U.S. shores.

''It's a peculiar and disturbing thing to say, but it would be less than truthful
if I pretended otherwise,'' she said.

People would be better off without meat because it is tied to a host of
ailments, Newkirk said. And animals would benefit because the current
means of raising and slaughtering livestock are ''grotesquely cruel from
start to finish.''
[...]
http://www.pressanddakotan.com/stori...427010026.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
I suppose you're too deeply involved in this theory of yours to understand
the lack of value in it.

wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:53:31 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:


What you describe is not disinformation. Anyone with a brain can see that
veganism means the end of livestock species. You aren't pointing out
anything of importance.


"ARAs" lie by saying that veg*nism saves animals

No. They are up front about the elimination of some
animals species. They are not talking about saving any
existing individual animal from slaughter. They talk
about "saving" animals, collectively, from slaughter by
preventing the from being born. Theirs is a long-term
view of "saving".

You are lying about "ar".