It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want
to disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity,
things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
veggies.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:40:46 GMT, wrote:

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone *ever* bought this argument, David?

--swamp

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:26:39 GMT, swamp wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:40:46 GMT, wrote:

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone *ever* bought this argument, David?

--swamp

I have mentioned it to quite a few people in face to face conversations,
and have *never* had anyone attach a bunch of extra junk to it about a
right to life for unconceived hypothetical potential future animals, like the
Gonad and some of his veg*n buddies do. They have always agreed that
raising animals for food provides billions of them with life, since it would
be absurd to disagree. As for whether or not providing them with life is
an acceptable trade off for taking it later, no one has ever had a problem
with it. There has certainly never been anyone who felt that we should
*disregard* that aspect of the situation, and when I tell people about the
responses I get in these ngs, they feel that people making them are the
ones who don't think of things realistically. No offence to you swamp,
and no offence was intended when I mentioned it before, but the
objections you presented to it were for the most part if not entirely
arguments that veg*ns would use. Some of them I suppose I would
agree with to some extent, and others I wouldn't. I've been wondering
ever since how many of them you agreed with and how many you
didn't, but we never got down to details like that so I still don't know
which are objections that you agree with and which are not. I might
still have a list of them if you'd care to go through it and say which you
go along with and which you don't.

When I mention this aspect of the situation to people in person, it
is met with a completely different reaction than it is in these ngs. Why
not try it yourself with a few people and see what their reaction is,
just out of curiosity. Please let me know how it turns out if you give it
a go. You could just tell them that some moron you've seen online is
going around saying that billions of animals are not simply "killed" as
"ARAs" want us to perceive the situation, but that those same billions
of animals only get any life at all because people raise them for food,
and see what their reaction is.

wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:26:39 GMT, swamp wrote:


On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:40:46 GMT, wrote:


Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone *ever* bought this argument, David?

--swamp


I have mentioned it to quite a few people in face to face conversations,
and have *never* had anyone attach a bunch of extra junk to it about a
right to life for unconceived hypothetical potential future animals, like the
Gonad and some of his veg*n buddies do. They have always agreed that
raising animals for food provides billions of them with life, since it would
be absurd to disagree.

No more absurd than pointing it out. It is true, but
it's trivial; it is meaningless in the debate about
whether or not it's morally right to eat meat.

As for whether or not providing them with life is
an acceptable trade off for taking it later, no one has ever had a problem
with it.

Thanks for the admission that you think "getting to
experience life" is some kind of moral good. I'm
adding this to the FAQ.

There has certainly never been anyone who felt that we should
*disregard* that aspect of the situation, and when I tell people about the
responses I get in these ngs, they feel that people making them are the
ones who don't think of things realistically.

You have a cherry-picked audience of brain-dead rednecks.

No offence to you swamp,
and no offence was intended when I mentioned it before, but the
objections you presented to it were for the most part if not entirely
arguments that veg*ns would use.

Some of what "vegans" say is correct.

Some of them I suppose I would
agree with to some extent, and others I wouldn't. I've been wondering
ever since how many of them you agreed with and how many you
didn't, but we never got down to details like that so I still don't know
which are objections that you agree with and which are not. I might
still have a list of them if you'd care to go through it and say which you
go along with and which you don't.

When I mention this aspect of the situation to people in person, it
is met with a completely different reaction than it is in these ngs.

Dumb inbred southern rednecks. What did you expect?

Why not try it yourself with a few people and see what their reaction is,
just out of curiosity. Please let me know how it turns out if you give it
a go. You could just tell them that some moron you've seen online is
going around saying that billions of animals are not simply "killed" as
"ARAs" want us to perceive the situation, but that those same billions
of animals only get any life at all because people raise them for food,
and see what their reaction is.

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.
If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.
But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you. Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though. Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

Gary

wrote:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want
to disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity,
things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
veggies.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If
you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef. A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider. That's because you care more about
promoting veg*nism than you do about human influence on
animals.

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.
But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you. Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though. Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

Gary

wrote:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want
to disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity,
things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
veggies.

Gary Beckwith wrote:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

How does that help any currently living farm animals?


second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

But a meat eater who is concerned with animal welfare
could do the same thing, and undoubtedly there are
"vegans" who aren't members of any such organizations.
Being "vegan" has nothing to do with it.


now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.

Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.

Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.


your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.


you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit.

You're right about that particular poster, David
Harrison, better known as ****wit. However, some of
the points he raises are correct and serve to disprove
"vegan" claims. In particular, his claims about
animals being killed in the course of producing
vegetables are correct.

What you should disregard is his fatuous, ****witted
claim about how raising meat animals "provides them
with life". It is trivially true, but it is not a
reason to raise them, and he is the only loon who
thinks it is.

Virtually all your statements are completely false.

No, quite a lot of them are true.

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.

It's obvious to one and all that you do not practice
what you preach.

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you. Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though.

If "vegans" believe they are making a legitimate
ethical choice by not eating meat and other animal
products in order not to cause animal suffering, their
lifestyle IS wrong and bogus and based on a logical
fallacy. "vegans" cause massive animal suffering with
their "lifestyle"; they just don't eat the dead animals.

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

That is not a proper English sentence.

wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:


you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.


Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?


second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.


Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.

Meat eating does nothing to help animals, either,
regardless of what other things a person does.



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.


Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't.

That's merely your opinion, and it is based on ignorance.

If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.

If one thinks that it is horrible to kill an animal for
human consumption, then they indeed all have horrible
lives.



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?


From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef.

You are a massive hypocrite. You do not eat grass-fed
beef. You do not make any effort at all to choose meat
from sources that treated animals better than the
average for their industries. You buy whatever beef,
chicken, pork and other that Piggly Wiggly has in
shrink-wrapped packages. You are not an ethical meat
eater.

A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.

You have no support for that claim. It's idle,
ignorant speculation.

From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.


you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.


They are all true,

One of them is completely insignificant: the one about
the meat and dairy industries "providing life" for farm
animals.

as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider.

Vegans not giving any consideration to this stupid
"providing life" argument is not out of a fear of what
might be discovered. It is based on a full-knowledge
awareness that there is nothing to consider.

wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

it helps the ones that don't have to be born into a life of torture.


second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.

you can twist the facts any way you want. most vegans have a lifestyle,
not just an eating habit. what's your point? veganism itself is



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If
you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.

the VAST MAJORITY, i'd say well over 95% live horrible lives. did I
ever say all? again, what's the point? does it make a difference if
it's all, or most, or 95% or 50%?



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef. A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.

you are full of it. you did not give any example. what deaths? there
simply are not any animal deaths involved in tofu production. get real.

the fact is that for every pound of beef produced, hundreds of pounds of
grain must be grown and hundreds of gallons of water are wasted. The
entire earth could live off the grain and water that is wasted to feed
cattle. get your facts straight. you are completely wrong on this
one. do you know how many pounds of grain and gallons of water are
required to raise that head of beef that makes 500 servings? I guess
not because if you did you would not make that statement.


you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider. That's because you care more about
promoting veg*nism than you do about human influence on
animals.

I supposed you know exactly what I think and believe and what I want to
do. your original statement is full of generalizations of what vegans
think and do. how would you know what I think? how do you know what i
care about?


Simply stated, your arguments are not true, your arguments are completey
full of holes and when given an opporutunity to respond you skirt the
issue. If you reallly know the facts, why don't you tell me where all
the animal deaths are that result from tofu production? Three times
you've said that more animals die from the raising of vegetables than
meat and never have you given a single example. You also seem to know
nothing about beef production and the resources that go into it. Your
arguments are hollow and unsubstantiated. You generalize a whole group
of people into thinking and feeling one certain way, which is completely
outrageous.

You should learn more about the facts, and perhaps take a class on
debating. In real debates, you don't make generalizations and you
substantiate your facts. You've done neither.

I don't even see why you're trying to make this case. go ahead and eat
meat if you want to. it's a personal choice. Why do you have to tell
other people they are wrong for making personal decisions that differ
from yours? Maybe you're feeling guilty for eating meat and you're
trying to justify your habit by making these statements?




If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.
But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you. Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though. Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

Gary

wrote:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want
to disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity,
things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
veggies.

Gary Beckwith wrote:


wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:


you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?


it helps the ones that don't have to be born into a life of torture.

"They" don't exist, so they can't be helped. Try again.



second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.


you can twist the facts any way you want. most vegans have a lifestyle,
not just an eating habit. what's your point? veganism itself is

....is, what? Try to write complete sentences next time.

There is nothing intrinsic to "veganism" that means
people are going to be more likely to contribute to
animal welfare organizations. To the extent they
contribute to radical animal "rights" organizations,
they aren't helping any animals.

"vegans", in fact, are exceptionally self absorbed
people, and I contend they are likely to do far LESS to
help existing animals in any meaningful way.




now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If
you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.


the VAST MAJORITY, i'd say well over 95% live horrible lives. did I
ever say all? again, what's the point? does it make a difference if
it's all, or most, or 95% or 50%?

You have done ZERO research to allow you legitimately
to reach any percentage. You're just shooting wildly
in the dark, but aiming numerically high.




your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef. A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.


you are full of it. you did not give any example. what deaths? there
simply are not any animal deaths involved in tofu production. get real.

No, you get real, liar. Animals living in soybean
fields are slaughtered wholesale in the course of
tilling the field and harvesting the crop. Most likely
there also is some kind of active pest control
practiced in the field. Once the crop is harvested, it
is stored somewhere before being distributed, and
vegetable storage facilities ACTIVELY exterminate
rodents. Those deaths COUNT against you, buddy.


the fact is that for every pound of beef produced, hundreds of pounds of
grain must be grown and hundreds of gallons of water are wasted.

As far as the beef most North Americans actually eat,
some animal-killing grains IS produced and used. Your
ratio is far off, indicating again you don't know what
you're talking about. The actual ratio of grain:beef
is about 6:1, not hundreds to one. As to the "waste"
of water, it isn't a waste; it is just an input. Rice
production "wastes" water by your argument, and in
fact, Californian rice farmers do indeed waste water
prodigiously, as the water is heavily subsidized, and
they have zero incentive to conserve it.

The entire earth could live off the grain and water that is wasted
to feed cattle.

Doubtful, but irrelevant anyway. The use of the grain
and the water are not "waste"; they are inputs to a
production process like any other.

get your facts straight. you are completely wrong on this
one.

You appear to be the one who is completely wrong, as
you don't know AT ALL what you're talking about.

do you know how many pounds of grain and gallons of water are
required to raise that head of beef that makes 500 servings? I guess
not because if you did you would not make that statement.

I don't have to guess, dummy; I KNOW that you don't
know what you're talking about when you say "hundreds"
of pounds of grain go into producing one pound of beef.
That is a lie.



you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider. That's because you care more about
promoting veg*nism than you do about human influence on
animals.


I supposed you know exactly what I think and believe and what I want to
do.

In fact, dummy, when you declare yourself "vegan", you
DO INDEED reveal far more about your thoughts and
beliefs than you realize. Among other things, you
reveal that you are a rather radical leftist in your
political thinking. By revealing yourself to be
"vegan", I know EVERYTHING you think on political and
social issues. I've made this claim before in these
groups, and I have been proved right EVERY time.

your original statement is full of generalizations of what vegans
think and do.

Those generalizations are correct.

how would you know what I think? how do you know what i
care about?

Because "veganism" is a marker that is INTENDED to
reveal a lot more than merely what you eat. It is a
signal.

[snip remaining foam-at-the-mouth rant]

Jonathan Ball wrote:


now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.


I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written,
with photos, first hand accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New
America.


Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.

My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The
WHERE has nothing to do with it.


Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.






your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.

killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.

Gary Beckwith wrote:


Jonathan Ball wrote:


now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.



I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written,

Cite them.

with photos, first hand accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New
America.

Worthless propaganda by someone who ought to know
better, and probably does, but willfully lies.




Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.


My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The
WHERE has nothing to do with it.

Liar. You claimed to know the HOW because you live in
farm country, which is a WHE

I know [how beef cattle are slaughtered], I live in
farm country and I see it every day.

You LIED. You do NOT see it every day. In fact, you
filthy liar, you have NEVER seen it.

Admit it: you LIED.



Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.

Predictably, no comment. You liked about your
knowledge of dairy cattle operations, too.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything you HAVEN'T
lied about in this thread?



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.


killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.

No, dummy. Burrowing mammals, birds, reptiles. What's
"rediculous" [sic] about it?

Gary Beckwith wrote:
you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals. What would improve the quality
of farm animals is if you were to consume animals raised organically and
in humane conditions. Such operations do exist. The fact that you have
chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

second, vegan is not just an eating habit.

No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

it is a way of life.

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization. Such actions
become a "way of life" particularly when one ostracizes societal norms
and puts oneself on the fringe. VeganISM is a subculture.

many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA,

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies -- which, incidentally,
are not concerns of PETA (Peta is for animal rights, not welfare).

that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried. The exceptions maintain
their anti-capitalism by force, not by popular choice.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals.

Why?

That simply is NOT true.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
for yourself and see how animals are treated. Sick animals don't gain
weight, they lose weight; sick animals don't bring more revenue, they
drain revenue; sick animals do not save ranchers money, they lose
ranchers money.

The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives.

Care to prove that wild accusation?

They are confined to very small areas,

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it
prevents disease in younger animals, injuries from aggressive or
territorial animals, etc. I realize in some parts of the country the
scale of farming requires intensive methods including confinement; this,
though, is usually a function of restricted land-use and economies of scale.

pumped with hormones,

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
ranching/farming to support this?

body parts removed,

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
nor painful for any animal.

snip

I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

You do not know, and you probably live in the suburbs if you live near
any "farm country." Cattle aren't slaughtered out in the pasture,
nitwit. USDA makes sure of that.

Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam.

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not. The reasons can be
manifold, but most cattle roam pastures as long as there's sufficient
forage for grazing.

I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
"huge metal building"?

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
point is correct.

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

So should you, Einstein.

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

Davey isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but in this case he's
correct.

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.

If you do some research rather than reading propaganda from groups like
Peta, maybe you'll get the real facts.

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

No, he'll keep on about animals and life. He doesn't alter his posts one
bit. As for wearing blinders, what's your excuse, country boy?

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you.

Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
for some people to eat what they want. Stop supporting anti-meat
organizations if you're so libertarian. Otherwise, stop whining when
others clear up your misunderstandings about ranching and animal welfare.

Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though.

It's a free country and he can do that if he wants.

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

Especially if you're going to write bad sentences. Ick.

i have no responsibility to prove anything to you. you are obviously
closed minded anyway. to say it is worthless propoganda shows your
point of view already. why should I waste my time. the truth is, it is
NOT worthless propaganda when people who have spent their lifetimes
raising cattle tell their stories. photos don't lie either.

Jonathan Ball wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote:


Jonathan Ball wrote:


now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Prove any of this. Get busy.



I don't have to prove it, there are dozens of books already written,

Cite them.

with photos, first hand accounts from farmers, etc. read Diet for A New
America.

Worthless propaganda by someone who ought to know
better, and probably does, but willfully lies.




Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.


My point was not about WHERE they are slaughtered, it is about HOW. The
WHERE has nothing to do with it.

Liar. You claimed to know the HOW because you live in
farm country, which is a WHE

I know [how beef cattle are slaughtered], I live in
farm country and I see it every day.

You LIED. You do NOT see it every day. In fact, you
filthy liar, you have NEVER seen it.

Admit it: you LIED.



Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

You've never been inside the building, either, so you
don't know what you're talking about.

Predictably, no comment. You liked about your
knowledge of dairy cattle operations, too.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything you HAVEN'T
lied about in this thread?



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,
killing animals.


killing what animals? the bugs in the soil? this is rediculous.

No, dummy. Burrowing mammals, birds, reptiles. What's
"rediculous" [sic] about it?

whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to
criticize people who don't even though it has nothing to do with them.

it's just like being environmental, and recycling. I've heard people say
it's a waste of time to recycle because there's so much garbage. Or why
buy an electric car, or use solar panels on your house, when it won't
really make a difference.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough
food to feed the entire world. and if everyone used renewable energy
our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.

I didn't start this discussion. I don't go out of my way to tell people
they should or shouldn't do anything. You can eat all the meat you
want. But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the finger at
people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with
yours.


usual suspect wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote:
you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals. What would improve the quality
of farm animals is if you were to consume animals raised organically and
in humane conditions. Such operations do exist. The fact that you have
chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

second, vegan is not just an eating habit.

No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

it is a way of life.

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization. Such actions
become a "way of life" particularly when one ostracizes societal norms
and puts oneself on the fringe. VeganISM is a subculture.

many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA,

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies -- which, incidentally,
are not concerns of PETA (Peta is for animal rights, not welfare).

that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried. The exceptions maintain
their anti-capitalism by force, not by popular choice.

now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals.

Why?

That simply is NOT true.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
for yourself and see how animals are treated. Sick animals don't gain
weight, they lose weight; sick animals don't bring more revenue, they
drain revenue; sick animals do not save ranchers money, they lose
ranchers money.

The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives.

Care to prove that wild accusation?

They are confined to very small areas,

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it
prevents disease in younger animals, injuries from aggressive or
territorial animals, etc. I realize in some parts of the country the
scale of farming requires intensive methods including confinement; this,
though, is usually a function of restricted land-use and economies of scale.

pumped with hormones,

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
ranching/farming to support this?

body parts removed,

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
nor painful for any animal.

snip

I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day.

You do not know, and you probably live in the suburbs if you live near
any "farm country." Cattle aren't slaughtered out in the pasture,
nitwit. USDA makes sure of that.

Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam.

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not. The reasons can be
manifold, but most cattle roam pastures as long as there's sufficient
forage for grazing.

I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
"huge metal building"?

your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
point is correct.

you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

So should you, Einstein.

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

Davey isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but in this case he's
correct.

If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.

If you do some research rather than reading propaganda from groups like
Peta, maybe you'll get the real facts.

But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

No, he'll keep on about animals and life. He doesn't alter his posts one
bit. As for wearing blinders, what's your excuse, country boy?

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you.

Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
for some people to eat what they want. Stop supporting anti-meat
organizations if you're so libertarian. Otherwise, stop whining when
others clear up your misunderstandings about ranching and animal welfare.

Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though.

It's a free country and he can do that if he wants.

Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

Especially if you're going to write bad sentences. Ick.