frlpwr wrote:

Jonathan Ball wrote:

frlpwr wrote:

Jonathan Ball wrote:

(snip)


Beef cattle are not slaughtered in farm country. Stop
lying.


The Big Four meat-packers, (ConAgra, IBP, Excel, National Beef),
slaughter 84% of American cattle. Their plants are concentrated in the
non-union _farm_ states of Nebraska, Kansas, Texas, Colorado and Iowa.

The plants are in cities, not in "farm country".


You are a classic example of the clueless urbanite you so despise.

Here's a list of Tyson (formerly IBP) plants. You will note only
Amarillo and Boise could be considered "cities" and this only with a
stretch of your Southern California imagination (just kidding about the
imagination part).

http://www.tysonfoodsinc.com/freshmeats/locations/

You ****ing moron. More than half of those places are
suburbs of larger cities. Most of the rest have a
population over 10,000. That's a city, whether a
distempered tuna like you wants to acknowledge it or not.



(snip)


your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

Fields are disced, killing animals.


Conservation minded farmers use low-till or no-till systems.

Most farmers, including the ones who supply most of the
food you eat, do not practice that.


The food I buy comes from Rainbow General which only carries food items
produced in an environment-friendly way.

And you have verified this...how? Yok yok yok...

Farming methods that are good
for the environment are good for field animals, it's as simple as that.

I've already mentioned a number of times that I feel all farmers should
be compelled to practice conservation farming through a system of
progressively more punitive
fines, including eventual property seizure.

Yes, we knew force would be at the root of any scheme
you support for anything. I'll be waiting for you.


(snip)

and when the crops are harvested,
heavy machinery again drives through the fields,

Don't you ever get off the freeway, Ball? A good portion of
California's fruits and vegetables are hand-harvested.

High-value things like strawberries and asparagus,
sure.


The list is much more extensive, including beans, tomatoes, squash,
olives, grapes, avocados, apricots, apples, citrus fruits, all berries,
melons and on and on.

All things that are not staples, things that figure
diminutively in anyone's diet, even when considered
together. You STUPID dyke.



Rice, on the other hand, is lethal.


Beckwith asked about a "vegetable crop" that kills more animals than
livestock farming. Rice isn't a vegetable, dummy.

I suppose it's meat, then?


Further, hand-harvested wild rice is readily available, even in Safeway
stores.

Wild rice isn't rice, DUMMY. It also isn't something
that stupid "vegans" are going to substitute for good
old animal-killing rice.


If "vegans" believe they are making a legitimate
ethical choice by not eating meat and other animal
products in order not to cause animal suffering, their
lifestyle IS wrong and bogus and based on a logical
fallacy.


Strawman.

Nope.


Yes. You are arguing against a non-existent belief.

Nope. I have an accurate iron grip on the fatuous and
fallacy-based belief set of "vegans".



They commit the fallacy of Denying the
Antecedent, as well as the vilest sort of hypocrisy.


Vegans believe by not eating meat and purchasing other animal
products they are not contributing to the suffering of _farmed animals_
and they're not.

Irrelevant, and you know it, conformist bitch.


Highly relevant to your thrashing of a strawman.

No strawman. I have the "vegan" way of thinking down cold.


"vegans" have no principle that justifies worrying
about animals they might eat, and not worrying about
those killed in the course of producing their food.


Please provide a quote from any vegan on this group that shows s)he
doesn't worry about field animals killed in the course of agricultural
production. Nash might say he doesn't feel responsible for them, but I
bet he abhors them, nonetheless.

Cheap.


For the record, because I purchase enormous quantities of slaughterhouse
waste in the form of catfood, I am, technically, not a vegan. How does
this CONFORM to your vision of me as a vegan CONFORMIST?

Your massive conformism isn't about some single
isolated exception.


I have a whole list of exceptions to my supposed "negative conformism",

No, you do not. Everything about your life is rigidly
conformist to your goofy sense of unconventionality.



It has to do with your overall
conformist-to-unconvential lifestyle.


You are so full of shit.

Nope.

How many times do I have to tell you?

Repetition doesn't change the basic fact of your
rigidly conformist "lifestyle".

I have a job.

A highly unconventional job for a little waif, a job
you self consciously chose BECAUSE of its
unconventionality.

I own a house.

That's nice. We know what kind of "house" it is, and
roughly where it is.

I own three other parcels of land. I own two
vehicles.

Very ecologically correct.

I have insurance up the ass. I have a pension and personal
savings plans. I pay taxes. I vote. I make charitable contributions.
I buy products I don't need. I vacation. I entertain. I garden. I
marry.

No. Same sex marriages are not recognized in
California. What you do is shack up.

I'm so much like you I could puke.

You are, I am happy to say, not a bit like me.


(snip)


You are the conformist, not I.


You doth protest too much.

Nope. You continue to confuse conformity with
conventionality. My life, today, is conventional, but
only now, and only if one wastes the time to make the
comparison.

Why is this distinction so hard for you (I mean, other
than because you're ****ing stupid as a lamppost)?
Conventionality and conformity are two entirely
different things. Conventionality is what one
objectively does; conformity is why one subjectively
does it, i.e., how one got there. You are highly
unconventional in your choice of food, work, residence,
politics, and eating ****, but the way you got there is
through RIGID conformity to a highly negative world view.

You might as well give up now, skank. It's over.

"frlpwr" wrote
Jonathan Ball wrote:
[..]
"vegans" have no principle that justifies worrying
about animals they might eat, and not worrying about
those killed in the course of producing their food.

Please provide a quote from any vegan on this group that shows s)he
doesn't worry about field animals killed in the course of agricultural
production. Nash might say he doesn't feel responsible for them, but I
bet he abhors them, nonetheless.

The ignorance isn't stated, it's implicit. Any declaration that it's immoral
to kill animals for meat is tantamount to ignorance of animal death and
suffering in non-meat food production. This would be your "tortrix"'s of the
world.

Gary Beckwith wrote in message

single time. what animals are dying by the production of this organic
carrot in my hand? get real.

Don't worry, Gary. You are NOT going to get an answer out of Rick
Etter
and Jon Ball. They come here with no knowledge with the intent
only to stir up trouble. They are not scientists. They are not
professionals. They are nobody.

It is a well-established scientific fact, universally accepted
throughout
the scientifice community, that 10 to 16 times MORE animals are killed
to raise and feed animals to be fed to humans -- by the methods
Jon Ball has admitted to be true -- than if humans ate the plants
themselves,
because you have to churn up 10 to 16 times more animals in the ground
to grow the plants to feed the cows, chickens, and pigs to feed to
humans
than if you, the human, ate the plants directly.

Furthermore, anti-vegetarians like Etter and Jonball are EXTREMELY
anti-human.
They harrass and impede the important dedicated work of farmers,
vegetarian
food processors and salespeople, animal rights activists, and
environmentalists.
They support media censorship of the truth about the reality of
factory
farms and interfere with the work of groups who feel for
every ad for McDonald's hamburgers or KFC we should show scenes from
factory farms on tv and in the newspaper.

usual suspect wrote in message news:mKAib.37091$

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals.

Then this is EXACTLY the reason we need FAR MORE vegans --
so they WILL have a bigger impact on the lives of farm animals.
Each vegan is STILL saving the life of a dozen cows, a few hundred
chickens, and tens of pigs in their lifetime by being vegan than
eating
meat.
Secondly, if vegans or vegetarians constitute such a small minority,
then you have absolutely NOTHING to complain about.

chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

You are the one who is a fundamentalist anti-vegan religious fanatic
who absolutely wants the whole world to exclude the third option
of not eating the animals in the first place.

No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

No, Gary had it right. Veganism is just an matter of eating.
Unlike you in the pro-meat religion, vegans happen to take into
account
the consequences of ALL their buying habits. So, they may consider
things which have nothing to do with veganism
(e.g. animals in entertainment).

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization.

Lies and bullshit, from someone who has never seen the real world.

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies --

Hypocritical bullshit. If you don't happen to support the work or
philosophy of a particular charitable organization, like PETA,
you call their philosophy a "way of life" or "a religion".

Hunting and those in the slaughterhouse business are the ones who
are sheltered in their overly protected and unseen world by ultra-
conservative politicians. They, like Frank Purdue, make slaughtering
animals their entire life's work, never thinking of other
possibilities
for a REAL job.

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried.

More insane bullshit lies. There is no more anti-capitalism in
animal rights philosophy than in any other philosophy. Millions of
Chinese and Soviet Red Army Communists could not care less about
brutally murdering and torturing billions of animals for food.

If the pro-meat fanatics were so "pro-capitalist", then would
come out STRONGLY in favor of legalizing ALL drugs and ALL
pornography.
Those are businesses which don't hurt anybody --- nobody FORCES
you to smoke pot or look at porn -- and which have been unfairly
crippled by anti-drug and anti-porn zealots.
But, naturally, pro-meat fanatics will not do that, it does not
directly benefit THEM. Like all religious fanatics, anti-vegetarian
cultists are concerned with general ideals like "capitalism"
and "freedom" being applied ONLY in favor of THEIR business.


Anti-veganism and anti-animal rights religions have absolutely NOTHING
to do with human rights. They can say they are for human rights the
same way Joseph Stalin was for his human right to murder millions of
Russians or the Spanish Inquisition was for their human rights to
torture non-Christians. Needlessly torturing animals
is the only "human right" the anti-vegans care about.

The anti-animal fanatics whine and complain about being forced not
to eat meat. Yet they FORCE BILLIONS of animals to be born, kept in
crates their whole lives, tortured and then murdered
illegally because these cults do not obey even the most
lax animal-slaughter laws.

They show their true anti-human colors when they force only THEIR
opinions to be heard in public schools, on tv, on radio, in
newspapers.
The pro-meat-industry cults violently stop pro-vegetarian groups from
airing THEIR points of view, from promoting vegetarian diets in
schools,
while forcing THEIR advertisements and THEIR products everywhere.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
for yourself and see how animals are treated.

This statement shows how deeply entrenched the stupidity and lack
of brains the anti-animal rights cult in our country is. They could
take a trip to China and claim that every single Chinaman is happy
because they see nobody in prison or on in a slave camp or being
executed.

So then why do slaughterhouses and meat-packing plants violently
and illegally stop PETA and any other animal-rights groups from
videotaping
and recording the truth about all your alleged humane conditions?
Perhaps a few have, but for your argument to make even a BIT of sense,
ALL of them would have to.


Sick animals don't gain weight,

Care to prove your wild accusation that if the meat-industry were
shut down, how sick animals would be born in the first place?

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it


YOU ADMITTED IT!! YOU ADMITTED that confinement occurs!
Of course, you added the lie that it is "the exception".

You and the entire pro-meat cult religion are ENTIRELY discredited.
Democracy in this country is founded on TRUTH, and your religion
does EVERYthing to hide the truth about this holocaust.

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
ranching/farming to support this?

Do you have any information NOT from ranchers or the meat-industry
or those in government with ties to the meat industry to deny the
hormones

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

You should get down on your hands and needs and kiss PETA on the ass
for their efforts to stop ALL unnecessary breeding of bulls and
domestic pets. Naturally, your ignorance is astounding.
Neutering dogs and cats who are homeless is appropriate to prevent
millions MORE dogs and cats from either freezing to death, starving
to death, or dying lonely in a gas chamber in a pound.
In contrast, PETA is NOT going to go into a factory farm to castrate
a bull to prevent future cows from being born. They are going to do
what the government, weak-willed politicians, the FBI,
and pro-meat fanatics like you are too cowardly to do: SHUT DOWN
THE FACTORY FARM!

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
nor painful for any animal.

Yeah, yeah. And I have been a vegetarian for 20 years and so is my
family,
all for animal rights. And I know for a fact that the trolls I have
persuaded to go vegetarian have suffered absolutely nothing either.
Don't lie and preach to me that shutting you and your ranching family
down causes you "hardship" or crap like that. It is GOOD for you.
It makes you THINK and TRY OTHER THINGS in life. It is INFINITELY
more HUMANE to all the cultists in the pro-meat religion to shut them
all down and force them in prison for life than ANYthing they have
EVER done to the animals they needlessly raised for food.

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not.

Another lie. Put the MOST in front of "confined" and you will be
closer to the truth. Even so, you STILL admit that SOME are confined.

That is QUITE a bit different from the meat religion's earlier mantra
that NOT dairy cattle are confined.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
"huge metal building"?

Good. Then let us in.

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
point is correct.

It would take LESS of a toll if YOU and your pro-ranching cult family
(guess you learned from Charles Manson) spent your lives and careers
looking for ways of growing food with MINIMAL suffering and pain,
looking for biotechnological innovations in modifying plant food
to yield more protein, etc.

Fact: You will not innovate unless you are FORCED to.

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

That he is, Gary!

Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
for some people to eat what they want.

Waaah!! Waaah!! BOO- HOO!! And you stop telling PETA and
pro-vegetarian
groups what THEY can do with THEIR time and money! I think every
nurse and doctor should refuse to assist a pro-meat cultist every time
they get a heart attack or have an accident. If you are so
"libertarian",
then you would leave alone those who wish to have no association with
your business.

"piddock" wrote in message
om...
Gary Beckwith wrote in message

single time. what animals are dying by the production of this organic
carrot in my hand? get real.

Don't worry, Gary. You are NOT going to get an answer out of Rick
Etter
and Jon Ball.
====================
Wrong, you stupid loon. he was answered, and has been answered. Organic is
just a code word for high-priced yuppie stuff.
No extra nutrition, just more cost, in money and animal lives. Too bad you
don't like that, eh hypocrite?




They come here with no knowledge with the intent
only to stir up trouble. They are not scientists. They are not
professionals. They are nobody.
=====================
Only people with facts. unlike you. Come on pillock, back up your denials.



It is a well-established scientific fact, universally accepted
throughout
the scientifice community, that 10 to 16 times MORE animals are killed
to raise and feed animals to be fed to humans -- by the methods
Jon Ball has admitted to be true -- than if humans ate the plants
themselves,
========================
Another of your lies. YOU, and no other person can live on the grass that
feeds cows. And, it costs nothing for game animals to consume enough
plants(again, many inedible by you) so you're whole diatribe is just that.
Lots of words with nothing to say.



because you have to churn up 10 to 16 times more animals in the ground
to grow the plants to feed the cows, chickens, and pigs to feed to
humans
than if you, the human, ate the plants directly.
================
Nope. too bad you're too stupid to see the lys you keep spewing, killer.
what crops are grown for game animals? What crops are grown for grass-fed
beef?




Furthermore, anti-vegetarians like Etter and Jonball are EXTREMELY
anti-human.
====================
Nope, neither. I've never said anything agains't vegetarians. It is vegans
that are hateful, droll little mis-fits that have to spew their ignorance
and stupidity to try to make themselves feel wanted.


They harrass and impede the important dedicated work of farmers,
vegetarian
food processors and salespeople, animal rights activists, and
environmentalists.
================
LOL And you aren't anyone of these, killer.


They support media censorship of the truth about the reality of
factory
farms
=================
Nope. Unlike you, I am in the forefront of providing the meat industry with
a viable alternative to the 'factory farmed' meat you claim to despise so
much. It's really just people you hate. Animals are just your tools.


and interfere with the work of groups who feel for
every ad for McDonald's hamburgers or KFC we should show scenes from
factory farms on tv and in the newspaper.
===============
Show whatever you like, loser. Nobody is stoppng you. the problem is your
ignorance and stupidity are what turns people away from your so-called
message.

Now, go have that nice blood-drenched breakfast, killer.

"exploratory" wrote in message
m...
usual suspect wrote in message news:mKAib.37091$

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases
demand
for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals.

Then this is EXACTLY the reason we need FAR MORE vegans --
so they WILL have a bigger impact on the lives of farm animals.
Each vegan is STILL saving the life of a dozen cows, a few hundred
chickens, and tens of pigs in their lifetime by being vegan than
eating
meat.
=====================
and killing 100s or 1000s of other animals. Way to go killer!


Secondly, if vegans or vegetarians constitute such a small minority,
then you have absolutely NOTHING to complain about.
==============
your ignorance and stupidity is cause for concern. Supposedly you might
figure out how to breed someday, and that IS everybody elses problem.



chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

You are the one who is a fundamentalist anti-vegan religious fanatic
who absolutely wants the whole world to exclude the third option
of not eating the animals in the first place.
===============
nope. veganism is the religion here, dolt.


No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

No, Gary had it right. Veganism is just an matter of eating.
===============
No it is not you ignorant loon. Try looking up the word. read the guy that
actually coined the word, Donald Watson. I'm sure you're too stupid to even
know that, right hypocrite?



Unlike you in the pro-meat religion, vegans happen to take into
account
the consequences of ALL their buying habits. So, they may consider
things which have nothing to do with veganism
(e.g. animals in entertainment).
===============
No, you take into account nothing. You prove that with each and everyone of
your ignorant usenet posts, fool.



Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization.

Lies and bullshit, from someone who has never seen the real world.
====================
says the idiot from behind the bars?




This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies --

Hypocritical bullshit. If you don't happen to support the work or
philosophy of a particular charitable organization, like PETA,
you call their philosophy a "way of life" or "a religion".
==================
PeTA kills more animals than they save once they get their bloody hands on
them loser. But then, you like that don't you? Killing animals that is.
You prove it with every inane post.



Hunting and those in the slaughterhouse business are the ones who
are sheltered in their overly protected and unseen world by ultra-
conservative politicians. They, like Frank Purdue, make slaughtering
animals their entire life's work, never thinking of other
possibilities
for a REAL job.
====================
at least they have a real job, unlike you, loser.


Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried.

More insane bullshit lies. There is no more anti-capitalism in
animal rights philosophy than in any other philosophy. Millions of
Chinese and Soviet Red Army Communists could not care less about
brutally murdering and torturing billions of animals for food.
==================
Hey, what a coincedence, neither do you. Are you a red chinese commie?



snippage of rest of really stupid inane drivel....

On 14 Oct 2003 15:17:16 -0700, (piddock) wrote:

Gary Beckwith wrote in message

single time. what animals are dying by the production of this organic
carrot in my hand? get real.

Don't worry, Gary. You are NOT going to get an answer out of Rick
Etter
and Jon Ball. They come here with no knowledge with the intent
only to stir up trouble. They are not scientists. They are not
professionals. They are nobody.

It is a well-established scientific fact...

Strike one.

..., universally accepted throughout the scientifice community...

Strike two.

..., that 10 to 16 times MORE animals are killed
to raise and feed animals to be fed to humans

Strike three. 1 down.

-- by the methods
Jon Ball has admitted to be true -- than if humans ate the plants
themselves
because you have to churn up 10 to 16 times more animals in the ground
to grow the plants to feed the cows, chickens, and pigs to feed to
humans
than if you, the human, ate the plants directly.

Strike one

Furthermore, anti-vegetarians like Etter and Jonball are EXTREMELY
anti-human.

Strike two.

They harrass and impede the important dedicated work of farmers,

Strike three. 2 down.

vegetarian food processors

Utter nonsense. Strike one.

... and salespeople, animal rights activists, and environmentalists.

When was the last time an "anti" harassed *anyone*? Strike two.

They support media censorship of the truth about the reality of
factory
farms and interfere with the work of groups who feel for
every ad for McDonald's hamburgers or KFC we should show scenes from
factory farms on tv and in the newspaper.

Utter bs. Strike three and sit down.

Go Cubbies!

--swamp

"piddock" wrote
Gary Beckwith wrote in message

single time. what animals are dying by the production of this
organic
carrot in my hand? get real.

Don't worry, Gary. You are NOT going to get an answer out of Rick
Etter
and Jon Ball. They come here with no knowledge with the intent
only to stir up trouble.
They are not scientists. They are not
professionals. They are nobody.

Ad hominem fallacy. What are YOUR credentials by the way? Grade 10?

It is a well-established scientific fact, universally accepted
throughout
the scientifice community,

Show those "scientific" studies. You can't? Big surprise.

that 10 to 16 times MORE animals are killed
to raise and feed animals to be fed to humans

How many animals are killed to produce one codfish?

-- by the methods
Jon Ball has admitted to be true -- than if humans ate the plants
themselves,
because you have to churn up 10 to 16 times more animals in the ground
to grow the plants to feed the cows, chickens, and pigs to feed to
humans
than if you, the human, ate the plants directly.

Ground doesn't need to be "curned up" to raise cattle, or any livestock
feed. It does need to be churned up to raise vegetables though.

The majority of livestock feeds are very high yield, low maintenance
crops.

Furthermore, anti-vegetarians like Etter and Jonball are EXTREMELY
anti-human.

Ad hominem fallacy.

They harrass and impede the important dedicated work of farmers,

false, show how

vegetarian
food processors

false, show how

and salespeople,

false

animal rights activists, and
environmentalists.

All falsehoods, all they do is express their opinions on a newsgroup.
Animal Rights activists do much more to impede others' freedoms than
they do.

They support media censorship of the truth about the reality of
factory
farms

Show where they do that.

and interfere with the work of groups who feel for
every ad for McDonald's hamburgers or KFC we should show scenes from
factory farms on tv and in the newspaper.

You're ranting incoherently, you really ought to grow up, do some real
reading and stop believing everything you read on PeTA.com

"exploratory" wrote in message
m...
usual suspect wrote in message news:mKAib.37091$

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases
demand
for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in
the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have
negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals.

Then this is EXACTLY the reason we need FAR MORE vegans --
so they WILL have a bigger impact on the lives of farm animals.
Each vegan is STILL saving the life of a dozen cows, a few hundred
chickens, and tens of pigs in their lifetime by being vegan than
eating meat.

I'm not interested in "saving cows". Provided they get reasonably well
treated during their lives I am quite content to see them get bred and
slaughtered so I can eat the occasional burger. If you thinks it's so
all-fired important, YOU do it. Stop pushing your ideas on me.

Secondly, if vegans or vegetarians constitute such a small minority,
then you have absolutely NOTHING to complain about.

Veganism is the stillborn stepchild of the Animal Rights movement, who
even in small numbers are famous for doing plenty of damage to people's
lives.

chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

You are the one who is a fundamentalist anti-vegan religious fanatic
who absolutely wants the whole world to exclude the third option
of not eating the animals in the first place.

Nobody CARES what you ****ing eat, pillock!

No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

No, Gary had it right. Veganism is just an matter of eating.

Then why are you here trying to convert me?

Unlike you in the pro-meat religion, vegans happen to take into
account
the consequences of ALL their buying habits. So, they may consider
things which have nothing to do with veganism
(e.g. animals in entertainment).

I realize that, as I said, veganism is the stillborn stepchild of the
Animal Rights movement.

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization.

Lies and bullshit, from someone who has never seen the real world.

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are
free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies --

Hypocritical bullshit. If you don't happen to support the work or
philosophy of a particular charitable organization, like PETA,
you call their philosophy a "way of life" or "a religion".

You didn't even read what he said.

Hunting and those in the slaughterhouse business are the ones who
are sheltered in their overly protected and unseen world by ultra-
conservative politicians. They, like Frank Purdue, make slaughtering
animals their entire life's work, never thinking of other
possibilities for a REAL job.

How dare you, you arrogant twerp?

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and
everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been
rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried.

More insane bullshit lies. There is no more anti-capitalism in
animal rights philosophy than in any other philosophy. Millions of
Chinese and Soviet Red Army Communists could not care less about
brutally murdering and torturing billions of animals for food.
If the pro-meat fanatics were so "pro-capitalist", then would
come out STRONGLY in favor of legalizing ALL drugs and ALL
pornography.
Those are businesses which don't hurt anybody --- nobody FORCES
you to smoke pot or look at porn -- and which have been unfairly
crippled by anti-drug and anti-porn zealots.
But, naturally, pro-meat fanatics will not do that, it does not
directly benefit THEM. Like all religious fanatics, anti-vegetarian
cultists are concerned with general ideals like "capitalism"
and "freedom" being applied ONLY in favor of THEIR business.

And you would deny me the right to eat meat. That's totalitarianism.

Anti-veganism and anti-animal rights religions have absolutely NOTHING
to do with human rights. They can say they are for human rights the
same way Joseph Stalin was for his human right to murder millions of
Russians or the Spanish Inquisition was for their human rights to
torture non-Christians. Needlessly torturing animals
is the only "human right" the anti-vegans care about.

Who appointed you to decide for *me* what is "needed" and what is not?
Everything single thing you consume carries a toll of animal death. Do I
tell you that you have eaten too much rice, or apples from an orchard
that uses too much poison? No, those are life choices that you make for
yourself, without interference. Yet you have decided that one life
choice of yours ought to be imposed on me.

The anti-animal fanatics whine and complain about being forced not
to eat meat. Yet they FORCE BILLIONS of animals to be born, kept in
crates their whole lives,

Bullshit, livestock are not "kept in crates their whole lives".

tortured and then murdered
illegally because these cults do not obey even the most
lax animal-slaughter laws.

If you can't even come close to the truth how do expect anyone to accept
what you're saying?

They show their true anti-human colors when they force only THEIR
opinions to be heard in public schools, on tv, on radio, in
newspapers.

I hear plenty of AR stories in the media. You're media darlings aamof.

The pro-meat-industry cults violently stop pro-vegetarian groups from
airing THEIR points of view, from promoting vegetarian diets in
schools,
while forcing THEIR advertisements and THEIR products everywhere.

Companies pay for advertising, and they don't tell people to stop eating
vegetables.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when
shocking
yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a
farm
for yourself and see how animals are treated.

This statement shows how deeply entrenched the stupidity and lack
of brains the anti-animal rights cult in our country is. They could
take a trip to China and claim that every single Chinaman is happy
because they see nobody in prison or on in a slave camp or being
executed.

When's the last time you visited a farm? Did you see animals in crates,
being tortured?

So then why do slaughterhouses and meat-packing plants violently
and illegally stop PETA and any other animal-rights groups from
videotaping
and recording the truth about all your alleged humane conditions?

Because they know that PeTA will lie and distort the truth to advance
their own agenda, which is the abolition of meat.

Perhaps a few have, but for your argument to make even a BIT of sense,
ALL of them would have to.

Rubbish.

Sick animals don't gain weight,

Care to prove your wild accusation that if the meat-industry were
shut down, how sick animals would be born in the first place?

What?

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it


YOU ADMITTED IT!! YOU ADMITTED that confinement occurs!
Of course, you added the lie that it is "the exception".

It's not a lie. The lie is that it's the norm, it isn't.

You and the entire pro-meat cult religion are ENTIRELY discredited.
Democracy in this country is founded on TRUTH, and your religion
does EVERYthing to hide the truth about this holocaust.

You don't care about the truth, you care about stories that support your
rabid prejudices.

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
ranching/farming to support this?

Do you have any information NOT from ranchers or the meat-industry
or those in government with ties to the meat industry to deny the
hormones

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of
Peta
or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do
you
promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

You should get down on your hands and needs and kiss PETA on the ass
for their efforts to stop ALL unnecessary breeding of bulls and
domestic pets.

There you go again, telling ME what is necessary. Where do you get off
anyway?

Naturally, your ignorance is astounding.
Neutering dogs and cats who are homeless is appropriate to prevent
millions MORE dogs and cats from either freezing to death, starving
to death, or dying lonely in a gas chamber in a pound.
In contrast, PETA is NOT going to go into a factory farm to castrate
a bull to prevent future cows from being born. They are going to do
what the government, weak-willed politicians, the FBI,
and pro-meat fanatics like you are too cowardly to do: SHUT DOWN
THE FACTORY FARM!

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family,
and
I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither
inhumane
nor painful for any animal.

Yeah, yeah. And I have been a vegetarian for 20 years and so is my
family,
all for animal rights. And I know for a fact that the trolls I have
persuaded to go vegetarian have suffered absolutely nothing either.
Don't lie and preach to me that shutting you and your ranching family
down causes you "hardship" or crap like that. It is GOOD for you.

Who appointed you to dictate to others what's good for them? What are
your credentials to do this?

It makes you THINK and TRY OTHER THINGS in life. It is INFINITELY
more HUMANE to all the cultists in the pro-meat religion to shut them
all down and force them in prison for life than ANYthing they have
EVER done to the animals they needlessly raised for food.

What about the needless consumption vegans engage in? What about the
extra helpings, the gross use of power and autos? Who is going to stop
THAT needless consumption and it's inherent animal suffering? Should I?

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not.

Another lie.

Prove it, fathead.

Put the MOST in front of "confined" and you will be
closer to the truth. Even so, you STILL admit that SOME are confined.

So what? I spend most of my time confined myself.

That is QUITE a bit different from the meat religion's earlier mantra
that NOT dairy cattle are confined.

You've got nothing but mindless ranting and hate-filled dogma.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside
the
"huge metal building"?

Good. Then let us in.

Let who in? Fanatical troublemakers? Why?

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a
toll on
animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
point is correct.

It would take LESS of a toll if YOU and your pro-ranching cult family
(guess you learned from Charles Manson) spent your lives and careers
looking for ways of growing food with MINIMAL suffering and pain,
looking for biotechnological innovations in modifying plant food
to yield more protein, etc.

YOU do it, stop ****ing dictating how other's must live, HITLER!

Fact: You will not innovate unless you are FORCED to.

Try it punk.

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to
justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely
false.

That he is, Gary!

Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it
harder
for some people to eat what they want.

Waaah!! Waaah!! BOO- HOO!! And you stop telling PETA and
pro-vegetarian
groups what THEY can do with THEIR time and money! I think every
nurse and doctor should refuse to assist a pro-meat cultist every time
they get a heart attack or have an accident. If you are so
"libertarian",
then you would leave alone those who wish to have no association with
your business.

You're a ****ed-up, stupid crank, if you had half a brain you'd be
dangerous.

suppository wrote:
first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
influence on the lives of farm animals.

Then this is EXACTLY the reason we need FAR MORE vegans --

It won't change a thing.

so they WILL have a bigger impact on the lives of farm animals.
Each vegan is STILL saving the life of a dozen cows, a few hundred
chickens, and tens of pigs in their lifetime by being vegan than
eating
meat.

No it won't. You apparently don't understand that it's not zero-sum.
Those animals not eaten by each vegan are still used for other purposes,
ranging from petfood to tires and so on.

Secondly, if vegans or vegetarians constitute such a small minority,
then you have absolutely NOTHING to complain about.

I'm not complaining. I've only pointed out that veg-ns make no
difference in the quality of animal lives despite their posturing.

chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

You are the one who is a fundamentalist anti-vegan religious fanatic
who absolutely wants the whole world to exclude the third option
of not eating the animals in the first place.

Listen, asshole, I don't eat animals. At all. Nor do I consume dairy or
eggs. If your intention is to improve the lives of animals, you will
consume products that are consistent with such quality. Avoiding all
animal products, for the reasons you state, results in the status quo.
You're not part of the demand, so there's no reason to supply it. You're
the one who should stop complaining about the treatment of farm animals.
Why should a rancher cater to the demands of someone who's withdrawn
from the market?

No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

No, Gary had it right. Veganism is just an matter of eating.

Do you wear leather? Do you wear fur? For or against rodeos, circuses,
animal testing?

Unlike you in the pro-meat religion,

What pro-meat religion? How about calling me pro-choice: I believe
people should be free to eat whatever they want as long as it's not
stolen. You're the anti-choice fanatic, seeking to both deny others
freedom and force your will upon them.

vegans happen to take into
account
the consequences of ALL their buying habits.

Which is why it is about much more than eating, asshole.

So, they may consider
things which have nothing to do with veganism
(e.g. animals in entertainment).

Consider? No! They reject that.

Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization.

Lies and bullshit, from someone who has never seen the real world.

I beg to differ, particularly as I'recently returned from a three-week
vacation in what's considered a third-world nation. I've seen a lot more
of the world -- the real one -- than you ever will.

This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
to support animal welfare programs and agencies --

Hypocritical bullshit.

What's hypocritical about what I wrote, Einstein?

If you don't happen to support the work or
philosophy of a particular charitable organization, like PETA,

PETA are not a charitable organization. They are a group of political
activists.

you call their philosophy a "way of life" or "a religion".

Unlike you, I'm reserved when it comes to throwing out the charge of
religion. "Way of life" and "philosophy" are terms used by vegans and
other fellow travelers, and I think they're sufficient.

Hunting and those in the slaughterhouse business are the ones who
are sheltered in their overly protected and unseen world by ultra-
conservative politicians.

Go ahead and cede the point that your political point of view is shared
by other vegans. You cannot partake in veganISM without being a leftist.

They, like Frank Purdue, make slaughtering
animals their entire life's work, never thinking of other
possibilities
for a REAL job.

Your ancestors no doubt considered such work a real job.

Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
in nearly every nation where it's been tried.

More insane bullshit lies. There is no more anti-capitalism in
animal rights philosophy than in any other philosophy.

Your opposition to legitimate and wanted businesses above shows that
you're the one lying and full of bullshit. AR is anti-capitalist to its
core. The great irony is that many vegan shoppers purchase from
entrepeneurs -- many of whom do not share the same zeal, or even same
sense of aesthetics (diet, etc), but only want to make a buck by niche
marketing. I love free markets.

snip
If the pro-meat fanatics were so "pro-capitalist", then would
come out STRONGLY in favor of legalizing ALL drugs and ALL
pornography.

Non-sequiturs.

Those are businesses which don't hurt anybody --- nobody FORCES
you to smoke pot or look at porn -- and which have been unfairly
crippled by anti-drug and anti-porn zealots.

I'm for decriminalization of marijuana, but I strongly advocate that
individuals not get involved with recreational drugs. Dope doesn't
improve one's quality of life, except in certain medical situations and
even then the data are inconclusive. Those situations are unfairly used
as red herrings by pro-dope activists, who masquerade as humanitarians
when they only want legitimacy for their vices. Fine. Just make sure DUI
laws are enforced to protect those of us who don't need mind-altering
crutches to deal with life.

I do take exception, though, about your assertions about harm done by
drugs and pornography. Abusing one's body with drugs is an escape from
reality -- and you accuse me of being out of touch with the real world.

You may like to jack off to your porn, but the women who are shown are
often not (or almost always under-) compensated, often abused, and in
many cases very emotionally unstable. I know that doesn't matter to you
since they're not animals and you have your nut to crack.

Porn also affects relationships, and most often deleteriously. You find
it easier to wank to a video or a magazine than to build a relationship.
Your rampant engagement in self-pleasure is selfish, so you're
increasingly less concerned about finding satisfaction from your spouse
or significant other. You judge others by what you fill your mind with,
even though they're cosmetically-enhanced.

It's not a good thing at all.

http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/laydenhealthy.cfm

But, naturally, pro-meat fanatics will not do that, it does not
directly benefit THEM. Like all religious fanatics, anti-vegetarian
cultists are concerned with general ideals like "capitalism"
and "freedom" being applied ONLY in favor of THEIR business.

Again, I don't eat meat. You're not making a rational case in any event.

Anti-veganism and anti-animal rights religions have absolutely NOTHING
to do with human rights. They can say they are for human rights the
same way Joseph Stalin was for his human right to murder millions of
Russians or the Spanish Inquisition was for their human rights to
torture non-Christians. Needlessly torturing animals
is the only "human right" the anti-vegans care about.

Non-sequitur. Did you smoke some of your dope as you wrote this?

The anti-animal fanatics whine and complain about being forced not
to eat meat. Yet they FORCE BILLIONS of animals to be born, kept in
crates their whole lives, tortured and then murdered
illegally because these cults do not obey even the most
lax animal-slaughter laws.

What animals are kept in crates? What animals are tortured or even
"murdered illegally"?

They show their true anti-human colors when they force only THEIR
opinions to be heard in public schools, on tv, on radio, in
newspapers.

Huh? You have every bit of access to media outlets as meat companies and
industry groups.

The pro-meat-industry cults violently stop pro-vegetarian groups from
airing THEIR points of view,

Name any such act of violence by the meat industry. Shall I repost all
the ALF/ELF terror acts from last month? Let's see, they put acid on a
chef's car, flooded his shop (and adjacent ones), released mink into the
wild wherein the mink ate pets and livestock, firebombed a research
facility, etc. Seems like you've confused to two sides in this debate.

from promoting vegetarian diets in
schools,

What children eat should be between their parents and the schools, not
activist organizations.

while forcing THEIR advertisements

Advertisements are not forced, they're paid for with cash. Maybe you did
not know that.

and THEIR products everywhere.

Products are placed where they will sell. Why are there so few vegan
stores and restaurants? Because there are so few vegan shoppers and diners.

Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
for yourself and see how animals are treated.

This statement shows how deeply entrenched the stupidity and lack
of brains the anti-animal rights cult in our country is. They could
take a trip to China and claim that every single Chinaman is happy
because they see nobody in prison or on in a slave camp or being
executed.

Non-sequitur. Lay off the bong.

So then why do slaughterhouses and meat-packing plants violently

Examples of violence?

and illegally stop PETA and any other animal-rights groups from
videotaping

Whoa, what is illegal about stopping someone from doing something on my
property? Do PETA and other AR groups have a legal right to be on
private property?

and recording the truth about all your alleged humane conditions?

I've never said inhumane conditions do not exist, but that they're rare
and isolated. If PETA or anyone else is aware of an atrocity, it should
be reported to law enforcement. PETA are not policemen.

Perhaps a few have, but for your argument to make even a BIT of sense,
ALL of them would have to.

Many farmers and ranchers allow media access to their property. Of
course, the media often *ask* permission. Activists are not journalists,
and they have no interest in truth -- especially when it's at odds with
their agenda. Yes, activists have agendas.

If I ran a farm, I wouldn't allow access to my operation to someone
whose mission in life was to shut me down. **** that. If someone wanted
to see what we do and how we treat our animals, fine. I'd show them
everything they wanted to see.

Sick animals don't gain weight,

Care to prove your wild accusation that if the meat-industry were
shut down, how sick animals would be born in the first place?

It's not a wild accusation, asshole. Why are you so intent in closing
down farms and ranches and denying people the food they want to eat?

Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it

YOU ADMITTED IT!! YOU ADMITTED that confinement occurs!
Of course, you added the lie that it is "the exception".

It is the exception, fool.

You and the entire pro-meat cult religion are ENTIRELY discredited.

By whom, lol?

Democracy in this country is founded on TRUTH,

Then you should stop lying. If you're for democracy, why are you -- the
minority -- intent on preventing the majority from exercising the
freedom to choose food based on personal preference? You are not a
democrat, you are an authoritarian zealot.

and your religion
does EVERYthing to hide the truth about this holocaust.

How dare you raise the word "holocaust" -- which was a crime against
humanity -- in the context of AR. The Nazi view that Jews were subhuman
led to inhumanity. You're out of line because animals ARE subhuman.

Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
ranching/farming to support this?

Do you have any information NOT from ranchers or the meat-industry
or those in government with ties to the meat industry to deny the
hormones

What about the hormones?

Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

You should get down on your hands and needs and kiss PETA on the ass

No, but you can kiss mine.

for their efforts to stop ALL unnecessary breeding of bulls and
domestic pets. Naturally, your ignorance is astounding.

Naturally, lol? Strange choice of adverb given the context, jellyhead.
You're the twit who complains about one species being fixed, but
advocate it for others.

Neutering dogs and cats who are homeless is appropriate to prevent
millions MORE dogs and cats from either freezing to death, starving
to death, or dying lonely in a gas chamber in a pound.

Cattle are homeless, too, idiot.

In contrast, PETA is NOT going to go into a factory farm to castrate
a bull to prevent future cows from being born.

No, they're only going to farms to gather propaganda for fund-raising.
It seems to work for them, but they'd be better off with real jobs.

They are going to do
what the government, weak-willed politicians, the FBI,
and pro-meat fanatics like you are too cowardly to do: SHUT DOWN
THE FACTORY FARM!

No, they're not.

Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
nor painful for any animal.

Yeah, yeah. And I have been a vegetarian for 20 years and so is my
family,

I've been vegetarian longer than you. So what?

all for animal rights.

You should do what's best for yourself, not for posturing in the name of
novel and faddist political movements.

And I know for a fact that the trolls I have
persuaded to go vegetarian have suffered absolutely nothing either.

You've never persuaded anyone to go vegetarian. You forced it upon your
family, just as you seek to force the entire world to follow your
conscience.

Don't lie and preach to me that shutting you and your ranching family
down causes you "hardship" or crap like that. It is GOOD for you.

Unlike you, I don't make excuses. I don't have to. You'll never shut
down anyone.

It makes you THINK and TRY OTHER THINGS in life.

Why don't you try this rather than forcing others to act on your weak
conscience?

It is INFINITELY
more HUMANE to all the cultists in the pro-meat religion to shut them
all down and force them in prison for life than ANYthing they have
EVER done to the animals they needlessly raised for food.

It worked for Stalin, didn't it.

Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not.

Another lie.

It's the truth.

Put the MOST in front of "confined" and you will be
closer to the truth. Even so, you STILL admit that SOME are confined.

Yes, where land is too costly for operations, or further north when the
fields go dormant. Nobody denies that.

That is QUITE a bit different from the meat religion's earlier mantra
that NOT dairy cattle are confined.

No, nobody denies that dairy cattle are confined under certain
circumstances.

How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
"huge metal building"?

Good. Then let us in.

Ask a farmer/rancher and see if he will.

Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
point is correct.

It would take LESS of a toll if YOU and your pro-ranching cult family
(guess you learned from Charles Manson) spent your lives and careers
looking for ways of growing food with MINIMAL suffering and pain,
looking for biotechnological innovations in modifying plant food
to yield more protein, etc.

Ho hum. I have family who are in plant science research. You don't know
anything about the toll on ranches and farms. You only know propaganda.

Fact: You will not innovate unless you are FORCED to.

According to whom, scumbag?

snip
Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
for some people to eat what they want.

Waaah!! Waaah!! BOO- HOO!!

Need a hanky, tittybaby?

And you stop telling PETA and
pro-vegetarian
groups what THEY can do with THEIR time and money!

No. Farmers and ranchers create products that consumers demand.
Activists create NOTHING except fear through disinformation.

I think every
nurse and doctor should refuse to assist a pro-meat cultist every time
they get a heart attack or have an accident.

You sure are a sensitive and caring person, aren't you. You pretend to
be compassionate, but you just showed you're not. You also pretend
you're for democracy, but you want to deny others the right to vote with
their mouths. You're just another authoritarian intent on forcing others
to act on your burdensome conscience. Your post proves the claim that
vegans are intent on prosletyzing others to adopt a foreign lifestyle.

If you are so "libertarian",
then you would leave alone those who wish to have no association with
your business.

You should practice what you preach. If you don't like meat, don't eat
it. Let others eat what they want. That's how I handle it.

swamp wrote:
snip
Go Cubbies!

Looks like they went, lol. They're going down today.

Baa-aaa-aaa-aaa! I hear the goats already.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:53:43 GMT, swamp wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:21:32 GMT, wrote:

No offence to you swamp, and no offence was intended

No apologies necessary. I never took any offense. I just disagree w/
your "benefit of life" argument and was wondering if you had any
takers.

--swamp

I've had some people say something like: do you know how those
animals are raised? And I'll say that I know how some of them are
raised, and that some have decent lives and some don't. The ones
who have decent lives benefit from the arrangement, but some are
overly restricted, or beaten by aggressors, or get sick and suffer
until they die, etc..., and they don't benefit from the arrangement.
It's simple enough, and just like it is for wildlife, and pets, and humans.
Since that's the way it is, no one has disagreed with that view, though
a lot of people say they had not thought of it that way before. So yes,
everyone I've discussed it with in person has agreed that some
animals benefit from farming and some don't, and they have usually
had insulting things to say about people who can't understand that.
Have you mentioned it to anyone?