Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect the
crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for birdseed, but
an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest control
management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?
--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

"Wohali" wrote in message
...
Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect
the
crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for
birdseed, but
an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest
control
management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?

bad stuff is associated with everything even water-my vote-vegan



--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

"Wohali" wrote in message
...
Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect
the
crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for
birdseed, but
an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest
control
management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?
======================
I think you'd better check all your food first if you thing you're a vegan.
Sunflower seeds are the least of your worries as far as animal death and
suffering go.





--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

rick etter wrote:

I think you'd better check all your food first if you thing you're a vegan.

I do. And I know it's impossible to avoid animal products.

Sunflower seeds are the least of your worries as far as animal death and
suffering go.

I'm not talking about a few birds injured to keep them out of the crops. It's
legal & acceptable to net them, shoot them, and by any means necessary "manage"
them to protect the sunflower crops - including poisoning. This is wide-spread
& not isolated to just a few farms.
--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

"Wohali" wrote in message
...
rick etter wrote:

I think you'd better check all your food first if you thing you're a
vegan.

I do. And I know it's impossible to avoid animal products.
=====================
Then why try? The substitution you make can, and some times does, cause
more animal death than if you just ate meat instead.
How many deaths go into 100lbs of tofu meat substitute? How many go into
100lbs of grass fed beef, or game?



Sunflower seeds are the least of your worries as far as animal death and
suffering go.

I'm not talking about a few birds injured to keep them out of the crops.
It's
legal & acceptable to net them, shoot them, and by any means necessary
"manage"
them to protect the sunflower crops - including poisoning. This is
wide-spread
& not isolated to just a few farms.
==================
LOL And it's not isolated to sunflowers either. everything you eat has
those deaths, and more, involved. they die by the millions and millions in
all your crops just to keep your food clean, cheap, and convenient. They
also die by the millions and millions to provide for your usenet
entertainment too. But I don't see you stopping that unecessary killing.


--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

Hi Wohali,

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the
same thing, all the time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice
vegan food, right? Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the
communities surrounding the plantations and the workers themselves, I won't
consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices
become more ethical. As to your dillemna about sunflower seeds, I commend
you for looking at the bigger picture of how your products are grown and
taking that into account. I truly wish that more people did.

-Jay

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel



"Wohali" wrote in message
...
Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect
the
crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for
birdseed, but
an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest
control
management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?
--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential
Internet said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the
same thing, all the time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice
vegan food, right? Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the
communities surrounding the plantations and the workers themselves, I won't
consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices
become more ethical.

How about the Max Havelaar(sp?) bananas, or Fair Trade bananas?
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14 percent
of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

"MEow" wrote in message
...
While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential
Internet said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do
the
same thing, all the time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice
vegan food, right? Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the
communities surrounding the plantations and the workers themselves, I
won't
consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices
become more ethical.

How about the Max Havelaar(sp?) bananas, or Fair Trade bananas?


I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas.
I've never seen them in my grocery store, either, though. Might be worth
looking into. If you find anything, be sure to post it here. I do love
bananas =)

By the way, I have no way of verifying my sources since I've never been to a
banana plantation, but everything I've heard suggests that the way they
'control pests' is by spraying pesticides over the crop workers and crops
alike - pesticides which then get into the local water table. That can't be
safe. Also, much like any crop product, the pay for workers is dismal and
local economies are so completely dependant on crop production that to
remove the product would surely cause much poverty and even worse
conditions. I don't know which is better. Kind of a sucky situation.

I'm sure some companies are working to change conditions but I honestly
don't know which ones, nor have I done any research into the subject lately.
Unlike the fair trade movement with coffee and the like, bananas are not
nearly as often talked about amongst people looking to consume ethically.
Thought it might be worth mentioning here.

-Jay

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Jay wrote:
I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the
same thing, all the time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice
vegan food, right?

Very nice food, period.

Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the
communities surrounding the plantations and the workers themselves,

What inhumane conditions are these? Have you ever visited a banana
plantation in person or do you get your information from petty activists
who turn everything into an ethical dilemma?

I can say that I *have* visited a banana plantation, and within the last
couple of weeks. I also rode past many more on vacation. What I found
was nothing like you describe. The workers were joyful and well-fed.
They also seemed grateful to have honest work. Their income was actually
higher than what's available for semi- and un-skilled work in more urban
areas. Maybe the propaganda you've read didn't give comparative pay
within the same nation(s); such insight would defeat the purposes of the
activists.

I won't consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the
growing practices become more ethical.

What's unethical about bananas or any other food, or growing practices?
What does your withdrawl from the free market mean for banana plantation
workers? Does it mean better conditions or worse? Does it mean they make
more or less money to raise their families?

Living conditions in the regions where bananas are grown commercially
are probably substandard to Western tastes. That goes for every aspect
of third world life -- not just banana plantations. Are you still
drinking coffee, eating chocolate, or consuming sugar in ANY form? Those
foods, too, affect quality of life issues in the same regions where
bananas are grown.

As to your dillemna about sunflower seeds, I commend
you for looking at the bigger picture of how your products are grown and
taking that into account.

It's a futile exercise to withdraw from the market and expect it to
change. If you're concerned about the welfare of banana workers, eat
MORE bananas, not less, or find bananas raised in conditions that appeal
to your hypersensitivities. Your sense of morality is only leading to
worse working and economic conditions for banana workers. How do you
feel about that?

I truly wish that more people did.

What you are doing is not an act of conscience or principle, but one of
ignorance of economics. What economic, moral, or noble purpose would
mass deprivation serve? (Answer: none.)

How about the Max Havelaar(sp?) bananas, or Fair Trade bananas?


http://www.newdream.org/consumer/betterbanana.html


Just looked into it, looks like Chiquita is now certified. Good for them.

Check out the site above for a list of fair trade banana distributors.

-Jay

"Unlike you, I have problem spanking men." -Angel

Jay wrote:
I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas.

You also have no idea about conditions for any other bananas.

I've never seen them in my grocery store, either, though. Might be worth
looking into. If you find anything, be sure to post it here. I do love
bananas =)

The way to support banana workers is to eat their products, not to avoid
them.

By the way, I have no way of verifying my sources since I've never been to a
banana plantation,

Aha. Figures.

but everything I've heard

Is possibly bullshit? Yeah. It is.

suggests that the way they
'control pests' is by spraying pesticides over the crop workers and crops
alike - pesticides which then get into the local water table.

And Iraqi soldier are *still* tossing babies on bayonets.

Did you know organic food is also treated with pesticides? Some of the
organic pesticides have longer halflives than synthetic ones.

That can't be safe.

The question isn't about safety, but of truth. I walked and biked in the
banana plantation. I was never sprayed. I didn't even see a single airplane.

Also, much like any crop product, the pay for workers is dismal

The pay for ANY unskilled or semi-skilled labor is low regardless of
locale. As noted in my previous post, the pay for labor at the
plantation I visited was higher than that of similarly skilled work in
the cities. Go figure, huh.

and local economies are so completely dependant on crop production

Not entirely true. Local economies in third world nations, which most
banana producers are, are very much tied to agriculture and products and
services which don't require much sophistication in training or
infrastructure. This also includes mining, which is usually more
deleterious to the environment and may be deemed even harsher than crop
work. The exportation of agriculture and mining products from these
nations is a major portion of their GDP.

The way to support those economies so they can grow and diversify is to
buy the product(s) they have, not to boycott them.

that to remove the product would surely cause much poverty and
even worse conditions.

Such is the result of boycotts and withdrawls from the market, as you
have chosen. How do you sleep at night?

I don't know which is better. Kind of a sucky situation.

No, your conscience is guided by ignorance. I hope my replies help you
so you can enjoy a food you like AND help people you think you care about.

I'm sure some companies are working to change conditions but I honestly
don't know which ones, nor have I done any research into the subject lately.

So you smear the whole industry based on your lack of knowledge and hope
others act on your ignorance and false conscience?

Unlike the fair trade movement with coffee and the like, bananas are not
nearly as often talked about amongst people looking to consume ethically.

Most "ethical" consumption is based on faulty premises (like your
ignorance of banana plantations) and/or a poor understanding of
economics (which you alluded to above; namely, that withdrawing from the
market only makes conditions worse for others rather than causing
improvement). Either way, "ethics" is never served; it's just lipservice
and posturing. One is not moral by abstaining from bananas, and one is
not immoral by eating them.

Thought it might be worth mentioning here.

Thanks for muddying the water with your admission of ignorance. I'm sure
you really helped others with your lack of insight.

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Where do you draw the line at compassion and ethics: eating bananas,
spanking men?

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential
Internet said:

I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas.
I've never seen them in my grocery store, either, though. Might be worth
looking into. If you find anything, be sure to post it here. I do love
bananas =)

By the way, I have no way of verifying my sources since I've never been to a
banana plantation, but everything I've heard suggests that the way they
'control pests' is by spraying pesticides over the crop workers and crops
alike - pesticides which then get into the local water table. That can't be
safe. Also, much like any crop product, the pay for workers is dismal and
local economies are so completely dependant on crop production that to
remove the product would surely cause much poverty and even worse
conditions. I don't know which is better. Kind of a sucky situation.

I know. It's the problem when a country depends on just one product,
like banana, because it's almost the only thing other countries will
buy from them. As far as the method of pest control goes, I only have
it from a documentary on the issue, but it seems that they do spread
those chemicals by plane with no consideration of who might be out an
working at the plantation.

I'm sure some companies are working to change conditions but I honestly
don't know which ones, nor have I done any research into the subject lately.
Unlike the fair trade movement with coffee and the like, bananas are not
nearly as often talked about amongst people looking to consume ethically.
Thought it might be worth mentioning here.

I don't know if Fair Trade do have bananas on the list, for sure. I do
know that Max Havelaar(sp?) is much similar to Fair Trade and they do
have bananas.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14 percent
of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential
Internet said:

http://www.newdream.org/consumer/betterbanana.html


Just looked into it, looks like Chiquita is now certified. Good for them.

Check out the site above for a list of fair trade banana distributors.

Thanks.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14 percent
of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, usual suspect of Road
Runner - Texas said:

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Where do you draw the line at compassion and ethics: eating bananas,
spanking men?

Obsessing about signatures again? Where did your sense of humour go? I
remember you used to have one.

Besides, she's only quoting someone else for saying it, not saying
that it's her own opinion. As with most other quotes in signatures,
it's probably placed there because the person having the signature
thought it was funny. You seem to have big problems understanding
usenet signatures and the humour in them.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14 percent
of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Where do you draw the line at compassion and ethics: eating bananas,
spanking men?


Compassion and ethics can go hand in hand with consenting sexual practices,
kinky or not. I don't see a contradiction. And I draw different lines in
terms of compassion and ethics every day depending on individual contexts.
Plus, you know what? It's a signature. And a damn chuckle-y one at that,
IMHO.


Obsessing about signatures again? Where did your sense of humour go? I
remember you used to have one.

Besides, she's only quoting someone else for saying it, not saying
that it's her own opinion.

If you're referring to me, I'm a HE please. Just 'cos I spank men doesn't
make me a woman =P (Though I would say that I'm definitely a Lady ~grin~)

-Jay


--
"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel