The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the
purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was
much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea.
Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut
like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the
darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green
tea to me.
Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking
to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.

bloehard writes:

The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the
purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was
much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea.
Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut
like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the
darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green
tea to me.
Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking
to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.

Based on what you tried and how it tasted to you, I think you should
stay away from Darjeelings for a while. Your taste may change, so
don't give up on them forever.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Go to a local Indian grocery store and try a can of Lipton Green Label or
Brooke Bond Supreme teas. That is a cheap way of getting some exposure to
Darjeeling. And are more"black" than "green".

--
Aloke
----
to reply by e-mail remove 123 and change invalid to com

"bloehard" wrote in message
...
The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the
purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was
much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea.
Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut
like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the
darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green
tea to me.
Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking
to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.

Lewis 4/6/06

bloehard writes:

The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the
purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was
much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea.
Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut
like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the
darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green
tea to me.
Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking
to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.

Based on what you tried and how it tasted to you, I think you should
stay away from Darjeelings for a while. Your taste may change, so
don't give up on them forever.


Lew, I'm not sure I agree with you here; I think Mr. bloehard should
experiment by roasting and further oxidizing some Darjeeling samples to see
if he can get them more to his liking.

Roasting entails putting the dry leaves in a wok and bouncing them around
awhile as they heat, never letting them scorch, and using the nose to tell
when the leaves have had enough. I recommend overdoing this, and then
pulling back iin later trials.

Further, oxidizing (fermenting, if you like) was discussed here or elsewhere
recently. Exposure to air in a clean, but not overly dry, environment might
do it. This would take some experimentation to get right, I suspect.

Modern Darjeeling is greener than old style Darjeeling, but, unlike the case
of Oolongs, only the former seems available to us today. (He could of course
jump in his way-back machine and find the old style, or he could visit an
Indian grocery shop and pick up something wrapped in paper off the shelf. I
found one a year ago, wrapped in paper printed with the year 1996 (or 1990
something). Gotta be sufficiently oxidized, and then some, eh?

Michael

"bloehard" wrote in message
...
The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the
purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was
much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea.
Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut
like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the
darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green
tea to me.
Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking
to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.

Upton currently has one Darjeeling still made in the older style: TD75
(Tongsong Dtriah Estate FTGFOP Second Flush (DJ-291)). But the trend in
Darjeeling is to a oolong style for second flush and a green style for first
flush. Personally, I'm all for it - If I want strong black tea I'll drink
Nilgiri or Assam. But to each his own. I've not tried the tea above, but I
have had others from Upton made in the older style and they were good. I
just prefer the modern styles.

Regards,
Dean

Michael Plant wrote:
Further, oxidizing (fermenting, if you like) was discussed here or elsewhere
recently. Exposure to air in a clean, but not overly dry, environment might
do it.

This re-raises the question of what is meant in the tea world by the
terms *oxidation* and *fermentation*. The latter is generally considered
to be a biochemical process, requiring enzymes, which may be present as
live organisms (as in wine production) or their residues (as in brewing
beer or whiskey mash). I would have thought that such enzymes are
unlikely to survive later stages of tea treatment, though someone else
here (Nigel?) might know.

That leaves plain old autoxidation, a slow process at room temperature.
Though people do go on about aged oolongs, I'm inclined to suspect that
it's the repeated roasting rather than slow oxidation that does whatever
that magic may be. Certainly a lot of the desirable notes in many teas
are embodied in relatively fragile molecules that won't survive repeated
roasting or long storage in air.

So - I don't doubt that green Darjeelings can be moved over to another,
less-astringent taste regime. But I think it would be hard to get that
old-style oolongsome effect outside of the initial process.

I miss the old Darjeeling style as well. Can anyone recommend specific
(and readily available) offerings to add to Dean's list?

-DM

Aloke Prasad wrote:
Go to a local Indian grocery store and try a can of Lipton Green Label or
Brooke Bond Supreme teas. That is a cheap way of getting some exposure to
Darjeeling. And are more"black" than "green".

Is it my imagination, or have Darjeelings, on the average, been getting
greener and greener in the past twenty years or so?

I do much prefer a more strongly fermented Darjeeling, but they seem
to be increasingly hard to find.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

DogMa writes:

Michael Plant wrote:
Further, oxidizing (fermenting, if you like) was discussed here or
elsewhere recently. Exposure to air in a clean, but not overly
dry, environment might do it.

This re-raises the question of what is meant in the tea world by the
terms *oxidation* and *fermentation*. The latter is generally
considered to be a biochemical process, requiring enzymes, which may
be present as live organisms (as in wine production) or their residues
(as in brewing beer or whiskey mash). I would have thought that such
enzymes are unlikely to survive later stages of tea treatment, though
someone else here (Nigel?) might know.

From what I've gleaned, the oxidation that takes place during tea
manufacture, e.g. in blacks and oolongs, the process that gives them a
different taste and mouth feel - not to mention aroma - from greens,
is oxidation of *polyphenols*. And this oxidation is catalyzed by
*enzymes* in the leaves known as polyphenol oxidases. These enzymes,
from what I've gathered, are destroyed in the application of high heat
(fixation) during tea manufacture. I'm not a chemist, so I welcome
correction or refinement of this sketch.

That leaves plain old autoxidation, a slow process at room
temperature. Though people do go on about aged oolongs, I'm inclined
to suspect that it's the repeated roasting rather than slow
oxidation that does whatever that magic may be. Certainly a lot of
the desirable notes in many teas are embodied in relatively fragile
molecules that won't survive repeated roasting or long storage in
air.

All of this seems plausible, but it leaves open the question of what's
being oxidized post fixation. If it isn't polyphenols, then its
oxidation won't give the leaves more black/oolong character,
presumably.

So - I don't doubt that green Darjeelings can be moved over to
another, less-astringent taste regime. But I think it would be hard to
get that old-style oolongsome effect outside of the initial process.

Obviously we agree.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lew wrote:
All of this seems plausible, but it leaves open the question of what's being oxidized post fixation. If it isn't polyphenols, then its
oxidation won't give the leaves more black/oolong character,
presumably.

For example chlorophyll phenophytin.

You´ll most probably notice this behaviour during the classic, staged
processing of Oolong teas. While some proper panning/steaming of the
leaves stops any enzyme activitiy there´s still a lot of biochemical
life in those leaves, most evident during further panning/rolling
cycles and of course during the firings (changes in colors, aromas).

All of this seems plausible, but it leaves open the question of what's being oxidized post fixation.
If it isn't polyphenols ...

Why not ? They´re usually the first molecules that go "here, here ...!
", enzymatic or not.

Karsten

writes:

DogMa wrote:

I would have thought that such enzymes are unlikely to survive
later stages of tea treatment, though someone else here (Nigel?)
might know.

Sorry I´m not Nigel but no active enzyme makes it through some decent
firing.
Anyway, among those several 100s of known biochemical reactions during
tea processing there are at least some that are not dependent on
enzymes at all. For example the oxidation of theaflavins into
thearubigins and so on.

Right, but theaflavins themselves are downstream from the enzymatic
oxidation, according to this source:

http://www.upasitearesearch.org/chemistry2_content.html

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lew wrote:
Right, but theaflavins themselves are downstream from the enzymatic
oxidation, according to this source:

Lew, did anybody say something different ?

Karsten

writes:

Lew wrote:
Right, but theaflavins themselves are downstream from the enzymatic
oxidation, according to this source:

Lew, did anybody say something different ?

No, and I apologize if I left the impression I was "correcting" you.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lew, not at all, it was just that I thought I was missing a point here
myself.

I just wish that every tea afficionado who hasn´t already seen the
"miracle" happening, gets a chance to see it unfold, or maybe be able
to actively take part in it him or herself: the
plucking-withering-fermenting-panning/steaming-rolling-firing of those
leaves, all highly non-linear processes where tiny, often unnoted
changes in temperatures, pressures, times, ... can have profound
effects on the outcome.
What a wonderful artform.

Karsten

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Aloke Prasad wrote:
Go to a local Indian grocery store and try a can of Lipton Green Label or
Brooke Bond Supreme teas. That is a cheap way of getting some exposure to
Darjeeling. And are more"black" than "green".

Is it my imagination, or have Darjeelings, on the average, been getting
greener and greener in the past twenty years or so?

I do much prefer a more strongly fermented Darjeeling, but they seem
to be increasingly hard to find.

I think this is a phenomena for the "western" markets. Thus, try the
Darjeelings marketed to the Indian crowd (available as imports in Indian
grocery stores). Those would still have the full flavor and more color than
the greenish Darj's.
--
Aloke
----
to reply by e-mail remove 123 and change invalid to com

wrote:
Lew, not at all, it was just that I thought I was missing a point here
myself.

I just wish that every tea afficionado who hasn´t already seen the
"miracle" happening, gets a chance to see it unfold, or maybe be able
to actively take part in it him or herself: the
plucking-withering-fermenting-panning/steaming-rolling-firing of those
leaves, all highly non-linear processes where tiny, often unnoted
changes in temperatures, pressures, times, ... can have profound
effects on the outcome.
What a wonderful artform.

Karsten

I'm witnessing that amazing transformation before my very eyes every
day with my budding tea tree... I have a pretty cool surprise for
everyone, hopefully it should be "live" tonight or tomorrow... I'll
keep everyone posted.

It is a very cool experience and really gives you a whole new
perspective.

- Dominic