i'm going to shut off posting through teatalk.org to the
rec.food.drink.tea newsgroup, and i will likely shut it
down completely shortly afterwards (for good this time).
i'm doing this for the following reasons:

* negative posts about teaspring were posted through the
service
* my company (dragonwater.com) was unfairly accussed of
hateful practices
* the rfdt group has expressed dislike for the teatalk
service in the past

i want to say that i built this before i created
dragonwater.com and started a company. it is in the spirit
of mysky.org which i've run for nearly a decade. i'm sorry
it has continued to be a disruption to everyone. i
separated it completely from my business and launched it as
its own free service based on the complaints in the group.
but still, i'm seen as some sort of demon or thief in this
regard. all i can say is that i was sincere.

i'd like to apologize to the few who do use this as a
regular service. google groups will always be available.

-gary


..

mike, thank you for the apology. i don't blame anyone directly, except
the original poster of the teaspring thread. i have bought from
teaspring and it was a very positive experience. i was disheartened to
see them attacked in the groups and encouraged by the rally to their
defense.

then everything turned ugly.

thank you again, mike. your sincerity will be remembered.

-gary



I, for one, owe Gary an apology. I was quick to jump to conclusions
before all of the facts were out. For that I apologize - Gary.

The possibility that Gary is being truthful and that his service was
simply abused is a very real one and, due to the anonymity of the
service, there is no evidence that points to anyone in particular
including Gary.

Fair is fair, the guy may indeed be totally innocent here.....

Mike
www.pu-erh.net

wrote:
mike, thank you for the apology. i don't blame anyone directly, except
the original poster of the teaspring thread. i have bought from
teaspring and it was a very positive experience. i was disheartened to
see them attacked in the groups and encouraged by the rally to their
defense.

then everything turned ugly.

thank you again, mike. your sincerity will be remembered.

-gary

Gary, I am not going to appologize, but I would extend an opportunity
for you to explain how your site/server was breached and posts were
made from it. If you have been doing this for over a decade then you
should know how to look into the logs and do some research. I am a
computer professional and have multiple degrees in this field, I can't
fully sympathize with you for a few reasons:

1.) If your site/server was breached and used in this manner without
your knowledge then your #1 priority should be discovering how it
happened and fixing it so that this does not happen again. Simply
walking away leaving the door open is negligent at best.

2.) There seems to be a major flaw in your story in that this person
was *posting* to news groups from that IP address. That means that the
person most likely had *physical* access to that server or a computer
within that domain. Which would mean that it was either you or someone
you would know in some way. Again, not an accusation just the reality
of the situation unless you are running a *nix server with some sort of
commandline NG reader available.. again easily traced.

Working in the field I do has made me less sympathetic to admins who do
not fully understand or take precautions to prevent this sort of thing.
It is tantamount to leaving the keys in your car and the doors
unlocked. More than half of the spam and virus traffic on the internet
today is directly attributed to this exact problem.

- Dominic

Greetings Gary,

Thank you for talking quick action regarding the abuse on teatalk. I
for one do believe these posts did not come from you personally, but
from someone posting through teatalk or spoofing your IP.

Unfortunately, unless you have a lot of time to securely set up and
administer a message forum, abuse can get out of control. It's always
been that way, even before the internet, back when I used a BBS.

It is regrettable that you had to shut down teatalk, but as you said,
there is still access from google for those without normal usenet access.


-Robit



gary wrote:
i'm going to shut off posting through teatalk.org to the
rec.food.drink.tea newsgroup, and i will likely shut it
down completely shortly afterwards (for good this time).
i'm doing this for the following reasons:

* negative posts about teaspring were posted through the
service
* my company (dragonwater.com) was unfairly accussed of
hateful practices
* the rfdt group has expressed dislike for the teatalk
service in the past

i want to say that i built this before i created
dragonwater.com and started a company. it is in the spirit
of mysky.org which i've run for nearly a decade. i'm sorry
it has continued to be a disruption to everyone. i
separated it completely from my business and launched it as
its own free service based on the complaints in the group.
but still, i'm seen as some sort of demon or thief in this
regard. all i can say is that i was sincere.

i'd like to apologize to the few who do use this as a
regular service. google groups will always be available.

-gary


.

Please checkout http://teatalk.org. It is a web interface to usenet.
No one required physical access to my servers to post.

The fact that I do not require people to validate their email address
before posting is a matter of personal choice, not a security breach.
We all know that google was forced by the dept of homeland security to
hand over logs on what people search for or do on google. The fact
that teatalk allowed anonymous use does not mean that it was not
secure. It's a matter of principle and the choice I made. For my
part, its shut down so you won't have to worry about anonymous posts
from this service anymore.

I hope that explains it and puts this to rest. The mob already has the
torches lit and the noose ready, but the facts are being ignored.

-Gary

One of the single issues with any group or organization is liability
and culpability. What transpired against Teaspring was not only wrong
but both defamatory and slanderous by law. Slandering anyone, but
especially a business, in any public forum is libelous. The issue for
me has always been seeing both a friend and a reputable business being
assaulted.

My complaint with Gary and Teatalk.org is not a personal one nor is it
directly related to either but both are nonetheless culpable and
negligent.

This whole matter began on March 20th and here we are now March 31st
finally with a response from Gary and Teatalk.org.

This is a public forum and publishing here is little different than
publishing in a newspaper or magazine. Teaspring and Daniel were
slandered in a very public way. I am not certain what, if any, damage
has or will be done to them but it is clear that an assault was leveled
against them both personally and professionally.

Timing is everything in life and if you are going to host any kind of
public forum you had best be willing to moderate it especially if you
have a business linked to the forum.

My personal view is that it was unwise to continue a public forum
linked to a business entity to begin with because it sets up all kinds
of liability questions.

In the end, I think action should have been taken far sooner that it
was and matters should have been corrected not by shutting down
Teatalk but by issuing a public statement apologizing to Teaspring and
Daniel and disavowing any direct involvement from Teatalk.org or Gary
or his business and employees generally.

Allen Miller

wrote:
Please checkout http://teatalk.org. It is a web interface to usenet.
No one required physical access to my servers to post.

The fact that I do not require people to validate their email address
before posting is a matter of personal choice, not a security breach.
We all know that google was forced by the dept of homeland security to
hand over logs on what people search for or do on google. The fact
that teatalk allowed anonymous use does not mean that it was not
secure. It's a matter of principle and the choice I made. For my
part, its shut down so you won't have to worry about anonymous posts
from this service anymore.

I hope that explains it and puts this to rest. The mob already has the
torches lit and the noose ready, but the facts are being ignored.

-Gary

I understand where you are coming from, but how in this do you not see
your own error or at least your part in all of this? Anonymous access
is what has placed all the fingers pointing at you, because honestly
you are the source, you facilitated the postings. Anonymous access -
above all - needs to have checks and balances in place. Legally if
Teaspring could prove the damages, and was so inclined, they would have
a legitimate case against you.

I may have sounded harsh in my above post, but believe me it is pure
experience talking. I have seen good guys take some big falls for poor
decisions or negligence. Unfortunately as with any law, ignorance is
not an excuse. There are no laws guaranteeing the right to anonymous
newsgroup posting, and as with all services involved in this sort of
thing the liability falls on the provider when shit goes pear shaped.
Please take my posts and advice as informational if nothing else, I
honestly believe it was not you... however it is not OK with me, and
you are seeing the downside of anonymity.

No doubt you have worked hard to get where you are, and to create what
you have, and while your intentions are good you have not taken the
proper precautions and safegaurds to protect yourself from what is
happening. I wouldn't take it out on the folks here or elsewhere,
because as I stated originally all of the data points squarely at
you... what other conclusion would people come to? On a personal note,
I could not see what benefit pure anonymity would provide on a tea
newsgroup. I also am someone who highly values my privacy, yet there
are limits and in some cases total anonymity simply breeds illegal
activity, misconduct, and more. If nothing else it is a lesson learned,
your hard work to provide anonymous access has been abused by one or
more bad apples and you end up holding the bag.

- Dominic

i'll answer any questions you have. if it is to be a public trial,
with my livelihood on the line, everything i've worked for, then so be
it.

i did not answer the thread of emails earlier because i did not know
that the post came from my server and i was not reading the newsgroup
during the time that everything exploded.

as for moderating teatalk.org, there is clear case law precendent that
shows you cannot moderate any posts, otherwise you assume liability for
the posts. this is why google groups and every isp providing access to
usenet does not moderate the groups. i know the law, that is why i do
not, could not, moderate the posts from teatalk.org. would you ask
google groups to moderate usenet as well?

i'm sorry for what happened to teaspring. but i think in the end they
got a lot of good press out of it. whereas dragonwater, which did
nothing wrong. really. has lost a lot. i've spent my whole life
building up this business. it's all i've got and i'm getting too old
to be successful at anything else. it barely supports me and my
family. and now you will take that away from me. what have i done to
deserve so much suffering? does it really equal the "crime"?

-gary

Thank you Gary for your apology, I for one am still willing to set
aside the negative feelings I have felt regarding the slander of
teaspring and trust that your apology is a sincere one.

it is. teaspring is a wonderful company and no amount slander can
change that.

wrote:
as for moderating teatalk.org, there is clear case law precendent that
shows you cannot moderate any posts, otherwise you assume liability for
the posts. this is why google groups and every isp providing access to
usenet does not moderate the groups. i know the law, that is why i do
not, could not, moderate the posts from teatalk.org. would you ask
google groups to moderate usenet as well?

No one mentioned moderation, what I have stated was logging,
accountability, and possibly registration. All good ideas regardless of
anything else.

i'm sorry for what happened to teaspring. but i think in the end they
got a lot of good press out of it. whereas dragonwater, which did
nothing wrong. really. has lost a lot. i've spent my whole life
building up this business. it's all i've got and i'm getting too old
to be successful at anything else. it barely supports me and my
family. and now you will take that away from me. what have i done to
deserve so much suffering? does it really equal the "crime"?

-gary

I'm sorry Gary, but please spare us. Maybe you should keep to standard
business practices and keep personal and business entities mutually
exclusive. Your responses so far have been, for the majority, lacking
real remorse and proper dilligence/accountability. The paragraph above
is insulting, irritating, and bothersome on a number of levels. I can
only hope all of this "good publicity" extends in your direction as
well. Unreal. It's probably better that you do slink away slowly, I may
just be inclined to assist Teaspring pro bono.

- Dominic

no one asked for my log info. of course there is logging. there is
only one ip that posted on march 20th, the date of the teaspring posts.
this doesn't mean this ip posted those posts. i can't associate the
post with the ip directly in my logs, but this is the only ip recorded.

60.48.240.209

-gary

wrote:
no one asked for my log info. of course there is logging. there is
only one ip that posted on march 20th, the date of the teaspring posts.
this doesn't mean this ip posted those posts. i can't associate the
post with the ip directly in my logs, but this is the only ip recorded.

60.48.240.209

-gary

This is Malaysian, based in Kuala Lumpur. It resolves to an
ISP/Network/Telecom provider there called "Telekom Malaysia
Berhad"/"Network Strategy"/"Wisma Telekom"

Contacts:

person: Darmataksiah Abai
nic-hdl: DA5-AP
e-mail:
address: Telekom Malaysia Berhad
address: Network Strategy
address: 5th Floor, North Wing
address: Menara Telekom
address: Jalan Pantai Baru
address: 50672 Kuala Lumpur
phone: +603-2240-7307
fax-no: +603-7958-2034
country: MY
mnt-by: MAINT-AP-STREAMYX
changed: 20031112
source: APNIC

person: Napizah Alang Jaafar
nic-hdl: NA16-AP
e-mail:
address: Telekom Malaysia Berhad
address: Network Strategy
address: 5th Floor, North Wing
address: Menara Telekom
address: Jalan Pantai Baru
address: 50672 Kuala Lumpur
phone: +603-2240-7327
fax-no: +603-7958-2034
country: MY
mnt-by: MAINT-AP-STREAMYX
changed: 20031112
source: APNIC

Dominic T. wrote:
wrote:
no one asked for my log info. of course there is logging. there is
only one ip that posted on march 20th, the date of the teaspring posts.
this doesn't mean this ip posted those posts. i can't associate the
post with the ip directly in my logs, but this is the only ip recorded.

60.48.240.209

This is Malaysian, based in Kuala Lumpur. It resolves to an
ISP/Network/Telecom provider there called "Telekom Malaysia
Berhad"/"Network Strategy"/"Wisma Telekom"

Which is basically brimming over with zombie machines.

Not that it couldn't well have been someone from Malaysia posting, but
because of the high ratio of zombified machines on Wisma, it's hard to
be sure.

We block most of telekom.net.my at the routers here because of the
various problems. It's a shame to have to do that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Teasping's reputation is affected
Gary is somewhat disgraced
We are here still drawing blood
The spoofer and real culprit is probably reading all these
And snickering at us all demanding justice from Gary
Let the one who has never commited a mistake
Or overlook one's work however minute
Cast the first stone
I don't think we should allow the spoofer
More joy at stirring storm in a teacup
If you wish to continue this inquisition further
May I suggest you take it up with Gary offline?
I would hate to imagine that the spoofer is
Beaming with joy at his little genius now
At our expense.
And I don't think Daniel wish for this to turn into
A vaudeville. Daniel has not spoken
Perhaps he wishes for all these to be forgotten as soon as possible.

Danny