This post concerns water and tea. Allow me to begin with an analogical
digression.

Several decades ago, as a pre-professional nerd, I read that sugar is
critical in many foods not as a source of sweetness per se, but as a
flavor potentiator like unto salt or MSG. This seemed possibly relevant
to the consuming problem of rapid flavor decay in so-called Juicy Fruit
gum. So I took a wad of post-sapid chicle, wrapped it around a pinch of
table sugar, and was astonished to find it entirely revivified.
Fortunately for Wrigley's fortunes (and my remaining teeth), I was too
lazy to make this a regular practice, and none of my cohort expressed
interest in such a life-extension methodology.

Back to tea: I keep being disappointed on home-brewing rare and fine
wonders that delighted in-store or at others' homes. Water is clearly a
factor, most likely due to absence of needed solutes rather than
presence of contaminants. But I'm too lazy and cheap to schlep gallons
of bottled solvent, and also (after several years in the UK) averse to
de-scaling the kettle. So of late, I've been trying some post-brew
experiments. These have taken the form of adding a dash of bottled water
to the gaiwan before dousing with hot tap water. I use mineral rather
than spring water, to get a good slug of ions in the small addendum.

This has worked pretty well. So far, I've used Gerolsteiner, which may
not be an optimal mineral balance. (It is, however, the only one
available here in the woods.) It's still less than convenient, and makes
it that bit harder to control brewing temperature.

So recently I've tried adding mineral water to the finished brew. This
goes against common wisdom about the effect of various solutes
(including oxygen) on extraction chemistry. -Common wisdom, I might add,
absent widely published evidence. Thus far, the effect has been just as
beneficial. Today, for example, I brewed a sample of Old Dong Ting from
NYC's wonderful Tea Gallery. (Disclosu commercial connection; I spend
money there at every opportunity.) This exquisite tea went "flat" after
just three steeps in tap water. Adding a few ml of mineral water to the
poured cup added/restored multiple layers of sweetness, fruit,
complexity. And seemed to smooth over hints of roughness, somehow
bringing the smoke/roast into better balance with more intrinsic leaf
notes. (Kind of like the difference between 10- and 15-year-old
Laphroaig, for those of that persuasion.) I took out five more very
tasty steeps before going out to grease the Kioti.

Now, here's the punch line: the bio-effect of a little added mineral
water seemed to persist. I alternated "spiked" and tap-water brews,
rinsing the cup between, and found them almost indistinguishable.
Perhaps this shouldn't be surprising: calcium is a dominant mediator of
cellular and neural activity, and charging the taste buds and proximal
tissue with divalent ions might have a persistent effect. Any biologists
here able to comment?

Anyway, the provisional conclusion: a very small addition of minerals
can apparently have a profound, persistent and positive effect on
perceived quality in brewed tea, without much effort. Your mouthfeel may
vary.

-DM

Mydnight wrote:
Without all that scientific stuff, this very same thing was told to me
by an old man in the Sichuan province. He said the reason people like
to use natural "mountain" water (shan quan shui) is because it's filled
with many different types of minerals, and it's the minerals that bring
out the tea's flavor more. Very interesting stuff.

I have no idea whatsoever about anything written about by the OP, in
fact I'm still confused... but I have found that PA spring water always
turns out the best tea over my other alternatives.

As far as odd Juicy Fruit experiments and swishing of mineral water,
etc.... I still am at a loss for a point to all of that.

- Dominic

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 17:03:55 GMT, DogMa
wrote:

a very small addition of minerals
can apparently have a profound, persistent and positive effect on
perceived quality in brewed tea

You could try some sugar, too! :-)

Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/

Dominic T. wrote:
I have no idea whatsoever about anything written about by the OP, in
fact I'm still confused... but I have found that PA spring water always
turns out the best tea over my other alternatives.

As far as odd Juicy Fruit experiments and swishing of mineral water,
etc.... I still am at a loss for a point to all of that.

My point was that those whose tap water is too pure to make good tea
don't have to bring home a lot of spring water with a slight mineral
content. Instead, a small addition of "mineral water" may work just as
well - even if added to brewed tea (rather than the kettle). The
preamble was to suggest a mechanism: flavor potentiation, rather than an
effect on the chemistry of extraction.

-DM

DogMa wrote:
My point was that those whose tap water is too pure to make good tea
don't have to bring home a lot of spring water with a slight mineral
content. Instead, a small addition of "mineral water" may work just as
well - even if added to brewed tea (rather than the kettle). The
preamble was to suggest a mechanism: flavor potentiation, rather than an
effect on the chemistry of extraction.

I guess I understand, I'm unsure if you are just making things overly
complex on purpose or are on about something over my head. If you are
basically saying that people using "pure" water should just add a tiny
amount of a spring water or water containing minerals to their pure
water *after* it has been boiled to gain a flavor "enhancement" then we
are on the same page... but I'm still unsure of the theory.

Traditionally mountain spring water was used, and I just keep with that
whenever I can as it does produce a better brew... however, I would be
at a loss to say I could nail it if I were given a blind test. I would
think it exactly the same with your proposed theory. I would highly
doubt anyone would tell the difference between the "pure" water and the
one with a splash of mineral water added in at the end.

If anything I think truly pure water would produce the perfect
reproduction of the tea leaf being brewed. Just properly oxygenated
pure water. Water is the one area of tea that I tend to not fret over.
Unless it has some overt foul or strong taste on it's own, I find that
all but the most delicate of teas are going to shine through on their
own merit. But that's just me, and I have no scientific nor Juicy Fruit
experiments to back my claims up

- Dominic

On 5 Mar 2006 09:19:49 -0800, "Mydnight" wrote:

Anyway, the provisional conclusion: a very small addition of minerals
can apparently have a profound, persistent and positive effect on
perceived quality in brewed tea, without much effort. Your mouthfeel may
vary.

Without all that scientific stuff, this very same thing was told to me
by an old man in the Sichuan province. He said the reason people like
to use natural "mountain" water (shan quan shui) is because it's filled
with many different types of minerals, and it's the minerals that bring
out the tea's flavor more. Very interesting stuff.

It is my understanding that TDS directly relates to mineral content in
the water.

I find this most interesting as I am getting 2 sample bottles of
Spring Water delivered from a local bottling company. Shenandoah
Spring Water has a TDS of 92ppm and Mountain Valley Spring Water has a
TDS of 268ppm. I plan on doing side by side testing using the same tea
to see if I can tell the difference. The winner will be delivered to
me every month.

http://www.shenspring.com/products.html

The next question is which tea will make the best litmus paper...


--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

"DogMa" wrote in message

My point was that those whose tap water is too pure to make good tea
don't have to bring home a lot of spring water with a slight mineral
content.

Well, the tap water is not wonderful, but it tends to be much more loaded in
minerals than most spring waters. I guess not all minerals have the same
effect. What about the ph of the water ?

Instead, a small addition of "mineral water" may work just as
well - even if added to brewed tea

In old times, salt was added to tea. Maybe for that reason.

Kuri

On Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:07:19 +0900, "kuri" wrote:

tap water is not wonderful, but it tends to be much more loaded in
minerals than most spring waters.

Tap water around here is also loaded with chlorine. I use a Brita
pitcher for my tea water, which seems to work pretty well.

Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/

Hi -

Missed you this time of my visiting NY and Tea Gallery.
The idea of mineral water being added to already brewed tea is very
interesting. The majority of the replies seem to miss the fact that seem the
most important to me - that opposite to adding minerals during brewing this
method cannot influence the extraction. So, it may improve 1. taste
mediation or (my current thinking) 2. increase dissoacoative properties of
water as a solvent and thus prevent the formation of chemical complexes and
therefore help "presenting" the extracts to the tastebuds in a better way.
Or both.
One way or another - it would be interesting to study the chemistry and
biomediation of these post-brew additives. May also be a serious
contribution not only to tea but to drinks in general and may be even food.

Good job, DogMa xian sheng.

Sasha.


"DogMa" wrote in message
...
This post concerns water and tea. Allow me to begin with an analogical
digression.

Several decades ago, as a pre-professional nerd, I read that sugar is
critical in many foods not as a source of sweetness per se, but as a
flavor potentiator like unto salt or MSG. This seemed possibly relevant to
the consuming problem of rapid flavor decay in so-called Juicy Fruit gum.
So I took a wad of post-sapid chicle, wrapped it around a pinch of table
sugar, and was astonished to find it entirely revivified. Fortunately for
Wrigley's fortunes (and my remaining teeth), I was too lazy to make this a
regular practice, and none of my cohort expressed interest in such a
life-extension methodology.

Back to tea: I keep being disappointed on home-brewing rare and fine
wonders that delighted in-store or at others' homes. Water is clearly a
factor, most likely due to absence of needed solutes rather than presence
of contaminants. But I'm too lazy and cheap to schlep gallons of bottled
solvent, and also (after several years in the UK) averse to de-scaling the
kettle. So of late, I've been trying some post-brew experiments. These
have taken the form of adding a dash of bottled water to the gaiwan before
dousing with hot tap water. I use mineral rather than spring water, to get
a good slug of ions in the small addendum.

This has worked pretty well. So far, I've used Gerolsteiner, which may not
be an optimal mineral balance. (It is, however, the only one available
here in the woods.) It's still less than convenient, and makes it that bit
harder to control brewing temperature.

So recently I've tried adding mineral water to the finished brew. This
goes against common wisdom about the effect of various solutes (including
oxygen) on extraction chemistry. -Common wisdom, I might add, absent
widely published evidence. Thus far, the effect has been just as
beneficial. Today, for example, I brewed a sample of Old Dong Ting from
NYC's wonderful Tea Gallery. (Disclosu commercial connection; I spend
money there at every opportunity.) This exquisite tea went "flat" after
just three steeps in tap water. Adding a few ml of mineral water to the
poured cup added/restored multiple layers of sweetness, fruit, complexity.
And seemed to smooth over hints of roughness, somehow bringing the
smoke/roast into better balance with more intrinsic leaf notes. (Kind of
like the difference between 10- and 15-year-old Laphroaig, for those of
that persuasion.) I took out five more very tasty steeps before going out
to grease the Kioti.

Now, here's the punch line: the bio-effect of a little added mineral water
seemed to persist. I alternated "spiked" and tap-water brews, rinsing the
cup between, and found them almost indistinguishable. Perhaps this
shouldn't be surprising: calcium is a dominant mediator of cellular and
neural activity, and charging the taste buds and proximal tissue with
divalent ions might have a persistent effect. Any biologists here able to
comment?

Anyway, the provisional conclusion: a very small addition of minerals can
apparently have a profound, persistent and positive effect on perceived
quality in brewed tea, without much effort. Your mouthfeel may vary.

-DM

[dog ma speaks of dabbing in a bit of mineral water to rejuvenate and
inspire his cup]

snip

Today, for example, I brewed a sample of Old Dong Ting from
NYC's wonderful Tea Gallery. (Disclosu commercial connection; I spend
money there at every opportunity.) This exquisite tea went "flat" after
just three steeps in tap water. Adding a few ml of mineral water to the
poured cup added/restored multiple layers of sweetness, fruit,
complexity. And seemed to smooth over hints of roughness, somehow
bringing the smoke/roast into better balance with more intrinsic leaf
notes. (Kind of like the difference between 10- and 15-year-old
Laphroaig, for those of that persuasion.) I took out five more very
tasty steeps before going out to grease the Kioti.

Extraordinary. I LOVE that Old Dong Ting, it's so rich and roasty and
balanced and friendly. I'm going to try your mineral water experiment first
thing.

Now, here's the punch line: the bio-effect of a little added mineral
water seemed to persist. I alternated "spiked" and tap-water brews,
rinsing the cup between, and found them almost indistinguishable.
Perhaps this shouldn't be surprising: calcium is a dominant mediator of
cellular and neural activity, and charging the taste buds and proximal
tissue with divalent ions might have a persistent effect. Any biologists
here able to comment?

Putting the technical chemistry aside because it ain't my thing, are you
saying that you added a bit of mineral water *once* and its effect persisted
through steeps, even after rinsing? That the bit of mineral water affected
the tea leaves *and* your tastebuds? Anyway, I'll be experimenting soon.

Anyway, the provisional conclusion: a very small addition of minerals
can apparently have a profound, persistent and positive effect on
perceived quality in brewed tea, without much effort. Your mouthfeel may
vary.

"Perceived," eh? Well that's good enough.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
... are you
saying that you added a bit of mineral water *once* and its effect persisted
through steeps, even after rinsing? That the bit of mineral water affected
the tea leaves *and* your tastebuds? Anyway, I'll be experimenting soon.

Yes, especially the latter - it worked even when added mineral water
never touched the leaves. Implication: remanent effect on tongue
physiology and/or mental construction of taste experience.

-DM

DogMa wrote:

My point was that those whose tap water is too pure to make good tea
don't have to bring home a lot of spring water with a slight mineral
content. Instead, a small addition of "mineral water" may work just as
well - even if added to brewed tea (rather than the kettle). The
preamble was to suggest a mechanism: flavor potentiation, rather than an
effect on the chemistry of extraction.

I think the effect you describe is very clear and has been documented
a lot in the last hundred years or so. You can read what Escoffier says
about how table salt affects other flavours besides just saltiness.

Try a pinch of baking powder, sea salt, or Burton Water Salts.

Also note that tea made with deionized water is pretty insipid. I tried
that once or twice here (my office has very nasty-tasting water but we
have a supply of distilled water).
--scott
(who misses Vichy water)

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Petro wrote:

It is my understanding that TDS directly relates to mineral content in
the water.

Yes, but not in a very useful way. TDS says that if you evaporate the
water, this is how much residue you'll have left. It doesn't say anything
about the contents of that residue.

It could be salts that make the water hard, or other salts that make the
water soft. There's a huge variation in the different minerals that get
dissolved in waters.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott -

The fact that high mineral content helps EXTRACTION is well known and DogMa,
I am sure, is quite knowledgeable of that.
The fact that adding tiny amount of salts (literally micrograms) in any form
to ALREADY BREWED TEA noticeably benefits its taste is not at all well known
and if you can provide references to that it would be very helpful.
However, please, notice that we are talking here strictly about adding such
AFTER the extraction, not before or during.

The ability of salt to improve and affect other flavors is attributed to its
ability to make water a better solvent and EXTRACT such flavors during
cooking or chewing, but I never saw any references to salt or mineral
content measured in micrograms to affect the taste of the solution AFTER
extraction

Sasha.


"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
DogMa wrote:

My point was that those whose tap water is too pure to make good tea
don't have to bring home a lot of spring water with a slight mineral
content. Instead, a small addition of "mineral water" may work just as
well - even if added to brewed tea (rather than the kettle). The
preamble was to suggest a mechanism: flavor potentiation, rather than an
effect on the chemistry of extraction.

I think the effect you describe is very clear and has been documented
a lot in the last hundred years or so. You can read what Escoffier says
about how table salt affects other flavours besides just saltiness.

Try a pinch of baking powder, sea salt, or Burton Water Salts.

Also note that tea made with deionized water is pretty insipid. I tried
that once or twice here (my office has very nasty-tasting water but we
have a supply of distilled water).
--scott
(who misses Vichy water)

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:

The fact that high mineral content helps EXTRACTION is well known and DogMa,
I am sure, is quite knowledgeable of that.
The fact that adding tiny amount of salts (literally micrograms) in any form
to ALREADY BREWED TEA noticeably benefits its taste is not at all well known
and if you can provide references to that it would be very helpful.

I have no references specifically regarding tea. But it's fairly well
established that adding salt, for instance, changes the existing flavour
of a dish. Escoffier's _Modern Cookery_ might be one of the first places
this is mentioned.

The ability of salt to improve and affect other flavors is attributed to its
ability to make water a better solvent and EXTRACT such flavors during
cooking or chewing, but I never saw any references to salt or mineral
content measured in micrograms to affect the taste of the solution AFTER
extraction

I don't think it _does_ make water that much more efficient. And I can
certainly say that it does nothing to keep pasta from sticking either, in
spite of the common wisdom about it doing so.

I'm not sure we're talking about micrograms here, though. I think we are
talking about milligrams, if not more. The actual volume of salts in some
mineral waters is quite high, to the point where Vichy, for example, actually
tastes smooth and almost salty.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."