"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Melinda wrote:

Apparently some people only call nucleotides etc. "flavor potentiaors" and
salt in this definition weouldn't be because it's a flavor by itself (in
other words, some people define flavor potentiator as something which
enhances flavor but has no flavor or smell profile of it's own). I only
bring this up becuase it would indicate a difference between salt and
sugar
which have flavor, and MSG or nucleotides which are primarily acting as
potentiators (I'll give you the source for all this babble at the end of
the
post). Anyhow...

I thought glutamate was classified as a seperate flavor too?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Yeah, actually one webpage I looked at had the old "four tastes" and one had
the more recent-to-the-West five tastes with umami added. One of those pages
I mentioned also had info about the specific molecules that trigger 'sour"
and "bitter" etc., which I found very interesting.

Is MSG still considered an evil substance to add to food? I'd seek some out
to add to my food as an experiment but I seem to recall that it was or is
considered bad for the health.

Melinda

Lewis Perin wrote:
Hey Dog: It's been a few days since your original post. You must have
tried adding Gerolsteiner to your favorite beverage again since then,
no? Do we have reproducibility?

Perhaps not by scientific standards, but I've tried the trick on four
oolongs of very different character, through multiple steeps, and it
seems to work similarly. Least effect was on a Hairy Crab that actually
brews up OK in the overly pure local water for some reason.

I'm almost out of Gerolsteiner and don't like it much anyways. Next step
is to try pure calcium and magnesium salts, and a few other mineral waters.

Current theory on the persistent effect: maybe instead of something
fancy like cortical reset or charging tasting tissues with excess ions,
it's just solutes leaking out from nooks and crannies in the mouth.
Anyone else here get repeats on tasty teas hours after drinking? I'm
guessing that that's why.

-DM

Oh yeah, for the nerds and general disputants: I find useful the
distinction between flavor addition and flavor potentiation. The
potentiator may have taste of its own, like salt, sugar, or MSG; but its
effect on the mix will be out of proportion to its intrinsic taste.
Things like miracle berry or artichokes+milk are extreme examples.

[Sasha]
MENSA:
Mr. Serebrayakoff, the founder of MENSA was a countryman of mine and
harbored many negative elitist attitudes of people who consider IQ as a
substitute for knowledge and hard work.
After running away from my own country almost 20 years ago I felt the
understandable urge to "belong" and having my IQ tested for free at the
Church of Scientology in Stockholm (and run away from their recruiters) I
understood that this MENSA place may be a good place to meet people who
actually know something. Joined MENSA and alas... What a disappointment!
After several years of meetings all over CA, NV and even UT and later NY and
NJ, I found nothing but a bunch of self-indulgent, mostly lazy,
overwhelmingly sloppy and unbelievably snotty crowd that just happened to
have some neurons in their brains wired in a peculiar way that allowed them
to see questionable patterns in a very specific and completely useless set
of exercises. Oh, wow!

[More Sasha]
Homeopathy -
From a point of view of what common people call "common sense" quantum
physics makes no sense either. "Common sense" has its areas of application
and its gigantic failures as a mental tool.
My life and scientific experience proved that never should we mix
experiments and theories. Theories are just interesting pastimes.
Experiments are the core of science. Most of the medical treatments had
ridiculous explanations just before the end of 19th century. But medicine
was a very successful discipline despite that since antiquity and did its
job pretty well.
Jenner invented vaccines having no idea of mechanisms of immune response and
was ridiculed for years for attempts to make a hybrid between people and
cows for years by people who used arguments very similar to yours.
I do not give a damn about homeopathic theories. I do not give a damn if
they are capable of understanding the causes and effects of their treatments
as long as the treatments themselves show results and I saw that. I have
very little interest in so-called "peer reviews" that usually used to
validate science because I saw so often how "peers" jump out of their pants
to prevent concurrent theories to see the light of day. One of the best
examples are these two guys, Marshall and Warren who got their Nobel Prize
recently for proving that stomach ulcers is a bacterial disease and can be
cured in HOURS!
For more than 20 years they were called quacks, their work pushed aside and
their results questioned because they attempted to take away hundreds of
millions if not billions of dollars from gastroenterologists. I know some of
these real quacks who even now resist the truth. Reading about their
tribulations and how their work "did not make sense" in the eyes of
gastroenterologists is a scary reading that is the best explanation I know
why we still have no serious breakthroughs in cancer treatments. Peptic
ulcers is just some hundreds of millions of $$, cancer is tens of billions
of dollars that can be potentially taken away from cancer surgeons!
So before you or my good friends Lew and Michael Plant express their views
on homeopathy so cocky and easily, I suggest you exercise a little caution.
All you do is to pre-judge something that may as well save your life one day
as it did for countless patients. I knew a guy, who is a gastroenterologist
himself and despite years of our mutual friend trying to convince him to try
antibiotics on his own wife who had peptic ulcers, he, using 'common sense"
dismissed the whole thing and her ulcers turned cancerous and she died. His
words were "What do two crazy Aussies know about ulcers that I do not know?"
Apparently a freaking lot.

[Michael]
OK, I Michael the Cocky here. Guilty as charged. I admit:

1) I've never read studies on the efficacy of homeopathy.

2) I've heard from possibly reliable sources that well
designed and executed studies exist showing that the
homeopathic effect surpasses the placibo effect.

3) I get high marks for glibness and do occasionally
well with sarcasm. I also score high on lazy and sloppy.
Happily, these qualities will never compromise the good
name of MENSA since I have nothing but my wits to put
on the table. I suffer from mediocrity.

Nicely written and heart felt, Sasha. I enjoyed your
post above, and I get it.

Michael

"Melinda" wrote in message

Is MSG still considered an evil substance to add to food? I'd seek some
out
to add to my food as an experiment but I seem to recall that it was or is
considered bad for the health.

Certain persons seem to be allergic. If that was your case, you'd already
know it, you wouldn't be able to eat 90% of prepared food.

I find artificial MSG has a bad aftertaste while natural umami is very good.
It is like the difference between the sweeteness of aspartame and that of
honey.

Kuri

"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
[Sasha]
MENSA:
Mr. Serebrayakoff, the founder of MENSA was a countryman of mine and
harbored many negative elitist attitudes of people who consider IQ as a
substitute for knowledge and hard work.
After running away from my own country almost 20 years ago I felt the
understandable urge to "belong" and having my IQ tested for free at the
Church of Scientology in Stockholm (and run away from their recruiters) I
understood that this MENSA place may be a good place to meet people who
actually know something. Joined MENSA and alas... What a disappointment!
After several years of meetings all over CA, NV and even UT and later NY
and
NJ, I found nothing but a bunch of self-indulgent, mostly lazy,
overwhelmingly sloppy and unbelievably snotty crowd that just happened to
have some neurons in their brains wired in a peculiar way that allowed
them
to see questionable patterns in a very specific and completely useless
set
of exercises. Oh, wow!

[More Sasha]
Homeopathy -
From a point of view of what common people call "common sense" quantum
physics makes no sense either. "Common sense" has its areas of
application
and its gigantic failures as a mental tool.
My life and scientific experience proved that never should we mix
experiments and theories. Theories are just interesting pastimes.
Experiments are the core of science. Most of the medical treatments had
ridiculous explanations just before the end of 19th century. But medicine
was a very successful discipline despite that since antiquity and did its
job pretty well.
Jenner invented vaccines having no idea of mechanisms of immune response
and
was ridiculed for years for attempts to make a hybrid between people and
cows for years by people who used arguments very similar to yours.
I do not give a damn about homeopathic theories. I do not give a damn if
they are capable of understanding the causes and effects of their
treatments
as long as the treatments themselves show results and I saw that. I have
very little interest in so-called "peer reviews" that usually used to
validate science because I saw so often how "peers" jump out of their
pants
to prevent concurrent theories to see the light of day. One of the best
examples are these two guys, Marshall and Warren who got their Nobel
Prize
recently for proving that stomach ulcers is a bacterial disease and can
be
cured in HOURS!
For more than 20 years they were called quacks, their work pushed aside
and
their results questioned because they attempted to take away hundreds of
millions if not billions of dollars from gastroenterologists. I know some
of
these real quacks who even now resist the truth. Reading about their
tribulations and how their work "did not make sense" in the eyes of
gastroenterologists is a scary reading that is the best explanation I
know
why we still have no serious breakthroughs in cancer treatments. Peptic
ulcers is just some hundreds of millions of $$, cancer is tens of
billions
of dollars that can be potentially taken away from cancer surgeons!
So before you or my good friends Lew and Michael Plant express their
views
on homeopathy so cocky and easily, I suggest you exercise a little
caution.
All you do is to pre-judge something that may as well save your life one
day
as it did for countless patients. I knew a guy, who is a
gastroenterologist
himself and despite years of our mutual friend trying to convince him to
try
antibiotics on his own wife who had peptic ulcers, he, using 'common
sense"
dismissed the whole thing and her ulcers turned cancerous and she died.
His
words were "What do two crazy Aussies know about ulcers that I do not
know?"
Apparently a freaking lot.

[Michael]
OK, I Michael the Cocky here. Guilty as charged. I admit:

1) I've never read studies on the efficacy of homeopathy.

2) I've heard from possibly reliable sources that well
designed and executed studies exist showing that the
homeopathic effect surpasses the placibo effect.

3) I get high marks for glibness and do occasionally
well with sarcasm. I also score high on lazy and sloppy.
Happily, these qualities will never compromise the good
name of MENSA since I have nothing but my wits to put
on the table. I suffer from mediocrity.

Nicely written and heart felt, Sasha. I enjoyed your
post above, and I get it.

Michael


Always happy to be helpful to my friends.

Sasha.

"Oh Jeez" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Michael!

I'm proud to say that I *am* one of the dullest minds of our times.
Chiming in from that position (i.e, the bottom of the IQ heap), here's
my idiot's guide to the play-by-play:

1. Sasha said he'd like some evidence that adding minerals after
extraction is known to enhance perceived flavor.

2. Dominic offered the example of salting a tomato.

3. Sasha correctly pointed out that salting a tomato is evidence only
of adding electrolytes *prior* to extraction, because until the saliva
hits the tomato, nothing has yet been extracted. Sasha wrote: "Adding
salt to tomato enhance the perceived flavor by (among other things)
adding electrolites into water-based extraction process (what do you
think salive is for?) So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding."

Obviously English is not Sasha's first or second language -- or, maybe
he drinks a lot...I don't know -- so we have to make allowances for his
spelling and syntax, but his posts are worth a close
reading/translation because, in the end, their content is excellent.

OJ

Note: No Mensa members have been harmed during the composition of this
message!


OJ,

As to the "So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding" it was meant to be "So it
is not AFTER, APRE, POST type of adding" - I was talking about adding the
salt to tomato. How the above quote got corrupted - I have no idea.
Drinking - definitely not, despite the fact that I came from the shores
where this pastime can only be called THE expression of national soul.

Cheers,

Sasha.

"kuri" wrote in message
...

"Melinda" wrote in message

Is MSG still considered an evil substance to add to food? I'd seek some
out
to add to my food as an experiment but I seem to recall that it was or is
considered bad for the health.

Certain persons seem to be allergic. If that was your case, you'd already
know it, you wouldn't be able to eat 90% of prepared food.

I find artificial MSG has a bad aftertaste while natural umami is very
good.
It is like the difference between the sweeteness of aspartame and that of
honey.

Kuri


Kuri -

The cases I know of, did not look like simple allergies. Mostly the
individuals would be having MSG food with no problems occasionally. However
when they started to eat MSG food more often (in one case it was a guy who
was in a lengthy business trip living next to a Chinese restorant and
instead of having chinese once a week, he was eating there every day) - then
they experienced quite heavy negative (I am trying to avoid the word "toxic"
here) effects.
In case of classic allergies, as you correctly stated, the picture would be
quite different.

BTW - unfortunately the signs "NO MSG" that you can see on the doors of most
Chinese restorants now do not necceserily reflect the true situation.
Legally, "MSG" abbreviation does not mean "Monosoidium glutamate" and such a
sign can be misguiding..

Sasha.

Kuri -

A very interesting case! But the important thing to keep in mind here is
this -
Tea is closer to what is called true solution , while coffee is more a
colloid (where tiny particles of solids (or other non-mixing liquids) are
suspended in a "mother" liquid.
From the point of view of chemistry and even physics these are two different
worlds. What you decsribed in your post is a very possible effect in
colloids and quite impossible in normal circumstances in true solutions.

Sasha.



"kuri" wrote in message
...

"DogMa" wrote in message

Current theory on the persistent effect: maybe instead of something
fancy like cortical reset or charging tasting tissues with excess ions,
it's just solutes leaking out from nooks and crannies in the mouth.
Anyone else here get repeats on tasty teas hours after drinking? I'm
guessing that that's why.

I have no idea what it is worth scientifically, but that might be the same
sort of mechanism.
Look at the video about salt in coffee on this page :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I29q_...urawaza%2 0po
tato%20skin%252

They have coffee forgotten 6 hours on the machine, it is considered too
acid. They had a very small amount of salt and the acidity seems to
disappear. They say there is not enough salt to feel its taste.
The explanation given by the coffee specialist is there are acid elements
in
the brewed coffee, they are small just after brew the coffee and grow up
in
size (so acidity can be felt). Then if you add salt, the natrium contained
in the salt bounces into the enlarged element and they go back to initial
size (and coffee goes back initial taste).

That reminds me that I add honey to dry products to make them taste
younger.
For instance rice of last year's crop tastes closer to newer rice.
Rehydrated dried mushrooms taste closer to fresh ones. I don't remember
where I saw the explanation.

Kuri

Melinda wrote:

Yeah, actually one webpage I looked at had the old "four tastes" and one had
the more recent-to-the-West five tastes with umami added. One of those pages
I mentioned also had info about the specific molecules that trigger 'sour"
and "bitter" etc., which I found very interesting.

You can argue that umami changes other flavours that come along with it.
But then again, saltiness and sweetness also change other flavours that
come along. That's what makes cooking interesting.

Is MSG still considered an evil substance to add to food? I'd seek some out
to add to my food as an experiment but I seem to recall that it was or is
considered bad for the health.

Some people seem to have very bad reactions to it. Growing up in Hawaii
as a kid, I used to see little old ladies carrying ten-pound bags of the
stuff home from the grocery. If it was all _that_ bad for you, most of
Asia would be dead by now.

I can still sing the ajinomoto commercial jingle, too.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

DogMa wrote:
Lewis Perin wrote:
Hey Dog: It's been a few days since your original post. You must have
tried adding Gerolsteiner to your favorite beverage again since then,
no? Do we have reproducibility?

Perhaps not by scientific standards, but I've tried the trick on four
oolongs of very different character, through multiple steeps, and it
seems to work similarly. Least effect was on a Hairy Crab that actually
brews up OK in the overly pure local water for some reason.

I'm almost out of Gerolsteiner and don't like it much anyways. Next step
is to try pure calcium and magnesium salts, and a few other mineral waters.

Before doing anything else, try making a cup with deionized water. It
has a very different flavour to it than tea made with tap water around
here.... really quite boring and almost flat. But get a sense of what
it tastes like.

Oh yeah, for the nerds and general disputants: I find useful the
distinction between flavor addition and flavor potentiation. The
potentiator may have taste of its own, like salt, sugar, or MSG; but its
effect on the mix will be out of proportion to its intrinsic taste.
Things like miracle berry or artichokes+milk are extreme examples.

Right, exactly. Salts do this quite a lot, but I don't have a modern
citation for the phenomenon, or any proposal for a good mechanism. I
am satisfied to sit back and enjoy it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."