snip snip

Adding salt to tomato enhance the perceived flavor by (among other things)
adding electrolites into water-based extraction process (what do you think
salive is for?) So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding.

Again, and as I said from the beginning, none of this seems new or
groundbreaking to me. I think it much ado about nothing. I don't say
that in a mean or demeaning way, and I certainly do not mean to
offend... but I think that no matter how you come at this, it comes
back to one of two ideas:

1.) The tomato example from above, where the flavor has been enhanced
after the fact.
or
2.) Homeopathy, where the least amount of some substance is supposed to
have the greatest effect. And to the point of complete absense being
the "best."

First of all it was not I who discovered this (and I use the word discovery
without hesitation), but DogMa.
Second - tomato example has nothing to do witth this - see above.
Third - I would not even touch homeopathy as an argument here precisely
because its mechanism were never understood or even expalined - that is why
allopaths (the "normal" doctors) still make an argument that homeopathy is
cookery and until today it is not accepted by AMA as "scientific" medicine
and that is why your insurance company never pays for homeopathic
treatments.

I believe in the former as homeopathy makes no logical or scientific
sense. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

I happen to work right now side-by-side with one of the greatest minds of
our times - the guy who founded Cetus Corp and under whose supervision the
PCR was invented for which Cetus scientists recei\ved 1992 Nobel prize. His
name is Peter Farley and guess what he does after all that spectacular
success? He leads a company that combines homeopathic approach with
traditional Chinese medicine.
And as opposed to your 2 cents this is multi-million dollar effort.

Hi Sasha!

I'm proud to say that I work right now with, and side-by-side with, some of
the dullest minds of our times, whose identity I will protect, as far as
syntax allows. I fail to see how Dominic's tomato example is erroneous or
not relevant. The original contention, in simple language, is that adding a
spot of mineral water will noticably enhance the taste of tea; the
contention of the tomato example is that a spot of salt or sugar on the
tomato will enhance the taste of said tomato; a good enough analogy for me
and my friends described above.

Michael

[Sasha]
It would be interesting ... adding few mililitres of
mineral water and tiny amount of alchohol to the s
ame flat brew and compare the results.

[dogma]
Pretty good (hic). Does 90% alcohol sound about right?

I suggest the 15 year old Laphroig (sp? -- I know, I know).
Michael

Hi Michael!

I'm proud to say that I *am* one of the dullest minds of our times.
Chiming in from that position (i.e, the bottom of the IQ heap), here's
my idiot's guide to the play-by-play:

1. Sasha said he'd like some evidence that adding minerals after
extraction is known to enhance perceived flavor.

2. Dominic offered the example of salting a tomato.

3. Sasha correctly pointed out that salting a tomato is evidence only
of adding electrolytes *prior* to extraction, because until the saliva
hits the tomato, nothing has yet been extracted. Sasha wrote: "Adding
salt to tomato enhance the perceived flavor by (among other things)
adding electrolites into water-based extraction process (what do you
think salive is for?) So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding."

Obviously English is not Sasha's first or second language -- or, maybe
he drinks a lot...I don't know -- so we have to make allowances for his
spelling and syntax, but his posts are worth a close
reading/translation because, in the end, their content is excellent.

OJ

Note: No Mensa members have been harmed during the composition of this
message!

Nah, the reason homeopathy doesn't work on you is because you haven't
availed yourself of the professional services of a classical homepath.
No belief is required.

Whether it's nonsense or not, I can't say, but I know that homeopathy
has been extremely effective on my animal companions (dogs, cats,
horses) over the decades, and they don't believe in anything but
dinner.

OJ

Oh 3/8/06


Hi Michael!

I'm proud to say that I *am* one of the dullest minds of our times.
Chiming in from that position (i.e, the bottom of the IQ heap), here's
my idiot's guide to the play-by-play:

1. Sasha said he'd like some evidence that adding minerals after
extraction is known to enhance perceived flavor.

2. Dominic offered the example of salting a tomato.

3. Sasha correctly pointed out that salting a tomato is evidence only
of adding electrolytes *prior* to extraction, because until the saliva
hits the tomato, nothing has yet been extracted. Sasha wrote: "Adding
salt to tomato enhance the perceived flavor by (among other things)
adding electrolites into water-based extraction process (what do you
think salive is for?) So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding."

Obviously English is not Sasha's first or second language -- or, maybe
he drinks a lot...I don't know -- so we have to make allowances for his
spelling and syntax, but his posts are worth a close
reading/translation because, in the end, their content is excellent.

OJ

Note: No Mensa members have been harmed during the composition of this
message!


Oh, Jeez!

I am pleased to say that Sasha and I are friends, and I do not take his
posts lightly, that is any more lightly than my limited intelligence
requires. I realize there are subtleties to the arguments. I also believe
that, for the sake of this discussion, "perceived" in each of its several
meanings is the operable word. As for Sasha's first language or his drinking
habits, he will have to make note himself. (Clearly I'm more comfortable
with Dog Ma's tentative conclusions than with the discussion regarding the
deeper science of the matter. If I "perceive" correctly, some of the
argument hinges on his use of that word.)

I said I would refrain from commenting further until I've completed my own
experiment set, but I obviously lied.

Michael

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
Jesus, man, do you ever listen? You are a programmer, can you use Google at
least? That does not require high IQ, anyone can use it.
I stated it clear from the first time - Peter Farley the founder of Cetus.
Haven't you read the "History of Biotechnology"?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/022...lance&n=283155
The book is about Cetus. Cetus was THE first biotech company, THE largest
IPO of all times, inventors of PCR (you know what PCR is, don't you?) and
Peter Farley founded it.

I am not a programmer, I am a Network/System Administrator. Programming
is a small subset of my work. I was wrong then, I didn't spend time
researching if they were the same guy just because of a silly newsgroup
argument... I really don't care that much. The only Peter Farley that
stuck out in my mind was the one I mentioned. I was wrong, I am capable
and happy to admit it.

My connection to homeopathy is zero - (I wish it was not) - I work with
Farley on a completely different project - mathematically calculated
synthetic vaccines that were pioneered by Bio-Virus Research Inc. that I
founded and own (do a search on US Patents with my last name).
However, as a scientist, I know that scientific explanation does not warrant
truth and the lack of such an explanation does not warrant the lack of such.
As an example I always use the aspirin. Do you know that we still do not
know how aspirin works?

I am not doubting your level of intelligence, or your scientific
background... it just has no bearing on this. I am in no way
questioning these things, but thanks for the resume, it is impressive
and I am sure you are successful. I have never claimed I do not believe
in home remedies/chinese herbs/regular herbs/etc. in fact I routinely
rely on herbs to help in certain situations and they always do.
Riccola, Tiger Balm, and many more. I am even working with my father to
see if Pu-Erh tea can truly lower his cholesterol level in an effort to
get him off of Lipitor. I believe aspirin has many beneficial
properties and it is derived from nature (the willow tree). However
true homeopathy states that the less of something is the most
effective, to the point of complete absense. That is selling snake oil.
Make sure you understand the real story behind homeopathy, not just the
accepted definition of natural cures... they are two majorly different
things. Take Zicam for instance, it is Zinc and salt. The salt dries up
the mucus and the zinc has been debated as far as its properties,
people believe it works and who knows it really may. However it
contains massive amounts of zinc, if it were a true homeopathic remedy
it would contain almost none at all if any... that is my problem with
homeopathy. Selling essentially air for money.

Farley and Dr. Diamond currently developed a treatment that almost
completely alleviate the suffering of AZT-taking AIDS patients based on
their whole new set of medical approached that combine homeopathy and
Chinese herbal medicine. You may not believe this "quackery" but South
African government distribute it all over their AIDS hospitals, but you
right - what do they know? They are not MENSA members... But wait, I was!
But what did I do with my MENSA membership? I remember wiping something with
it, but what?
Well, may be Farley's being a member of Reagan's "Technology Cabinet" for 8
years will qualify him? No? Being one of the founders of "Young Presidents
Club"? No? Being the first MD with MBA from Stanford? No?

Again, many very smart people have gone down wrong paths and spent
massive amounts of time and efforts on unproven and later debunked
ideas. No one is outside of that, Einstein, Edison, and even your
beloved Mr. Farley (the correct one this time). No one is ever that
smart, to never be wrong. You can dismiss MENSA all you want, it is
quite common for a lot of people to do... nothing new to me. Why do you
harbor such hatred and resentment towards the organization? It is
actually pretty meaningless and there have been many members who were
murders, psychos, and nut-jobs, but they all had high IQ's. IQ is not a
major measure of intelligence in my eyes, and my mention of it was to
just show that I hadn't just fell of the turnip truck either. I have
family members in scientific and medical backgrounds and also personal
interests that I pursue, including one of the countries top
Neurosurgeons. Fancy degrees and status do not impress or mean much to
me, I have learned some of my most valuable lessons from common,
everday people. My grandfather, mother, a small asian grocery owner,
among others.

Again, we have drifted so far off target and the thread is most likely
not recoverable now for the initial intent, so I will respecfully end
this now. I am not angry at you nor harbor any resentment, and I am
more than open to speaking with you further about any number of
topics... and as always you are welcome to email me anytime. I honestly
mean that, not being a smart-ass.

Take Care,
- Dominic
Drinking: getting ready to brew some Dragonwell

Oh 3/8/06


Nah, the reason homeopathy doesn't work on you is because you haven't
availed yourself of the professional services of a classical homepath.
No belief is required.

No, I haven't. But, I've attended lectures
given by classic homeopaths who chose not
to share those homeopathic principles that lead
to the "the water remembers" idea. With all due
respect, I sincerely *believe* it's all done with
smoke and mirrors.

Whether it's nonsense or not, I can't say, but I know that homeopathy
has been extremely effective on my animal companions (dogs, cats,
horses) over the decades, and they don't believe in anything but
dinner.

I'm the last one who has the right to ask this, but...
What quantitative data do you have to support
your contention that homeopathy has been
extremely effective? Reputable scientists, such
perhaps as yourself are subject to bouts
of subjectivity that require very careful
analysis to tease out. That's why psychic
phenomena studies often appear valid until
proven otherwise.

Michael

Take Care,
- Dominic
Drinking: getting ready to brew some Dragonwell

Dominic, DW is well off season. Which one are you getting ready to brew?
Michael

snip

I'm the last one who has the right to ask this, but...
What quantitative data do you have to support
your contention that homeopathy has been
extremely effective? Reputable scientists, such
perhaps as yourself are subject to bouts
of subjectivity that require very careful
analysis to tease out. That's why psychic
phenomena studies often appear valid until
proven otherwise.

Michael

Know what? "Bouts of subjectivity" is quite wrong.
Substitute "unintentional errors." Thanks.

Michael

Melinda wrote:

Apparently some people only call nucleotides etc. "flavor potentiaors" and
salt in this definition weouldn't be because it's a flavor by itself (in
other words, some people define flavor potentiator as something which
enhances flavor but has no flavor or smell profile of it's own). I only
bring this up becuase it would indicate a difference between salt and sugar
which have flavor, and MSG or nucleotides which are primarily acting as
potentiators (I'll give you the source for all this babble at the end of the
post). Anyhow...

I thought glutamate was classified as a seperate flavor too?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Which one do you like the best, white or red? I've used it 30 years
for everything including fevers. I supply some to my neighbor who is
almost invalid from rheumatoid arthritis. She says it provides better
pain relief than topical prescription pain medication. You can see a
earlier post of my brother running lab tests on himself to monitor his
cholesterol levels. I'm not sure of any recent numbers. I'm about
ready to send him some Puer. I drink tea for the taste and if it keeps
me alive another day to drink some more it didn't cost me anything.

Jim

Dominic T. wrote:
....major whacking...
Tiger Balm, and many more. I am even working with my father to
see if Pu-Erh tea can truly lower his cholesterol level in an effort to
get him off of Lipitor.
Take Care,
- Dominic

DogMa writes:

[...brilliant results adding a splash of mineral water...]

Hey Dog: It's been a few days since your original post. You must have
tried adding Gerolsteiner to your favorite beverage again since then,
no? Do we have reproducibility?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Space Cowboy wrote:
Which one do you like the best, white or red? I've used it 30 years
for everything including fevers. I supply some to my neighbor who is
almost invalid from rheumatoid arthritis. She says it provides better
pain relief than topical prescription pain medication. You can see a
earlier post of my brother running lab tests on himself to monitor his
cholesterol levels. I'm not sure of any recent numbers. I'm about
ready to send him some Puer. I drink tea for the taste and if it keeps
me alive another day to drink some more it didn't cost me anything.

Jim

I've always used Red, simply because it was all that was available. I
was a boxer and a hockey player for 12 years, so it has come in handy
more times than I can count and in as many ways. I have arthritis in my
knee's due to the sport and it helps a bit sometimes there, but not
anything major. Fever's, Sinuses, colds, headaches, muscle pain... its
all good.

I will search for the Pu-Erh and cholesterol thread, did it work? It
seems like it would for a couple real reasons so that is why I figured
I'd give it a shot. It can't hurt him, and he gave up cigars years back
so some Pu-Erh may just bea soothing thing for him on a couple levels.

I agree with you, if it keeps me alive one day longer, that is just one
more cup of tea I get to enjoy.

- Dominic

I used Red during the seventies. In the eighties I discovered White.
I think Red is for short term application and White longterm. I now
use Red for the body and White for the head. When I'm sick I'll put
Red on my feet and belly and White on my face and buttocks. I imagine
my white blood cells getting mixed signals and rushing to all compass
points at once and cleaning up anything they find on the way. My
brother was drinking black tea and from what I remember about the post
said he lowered his LDL 13 points. My brother got interested because
of the scientific literature about the efficacy of tea lowering
cholesterol. In the meantime I sent him white and green tea so I don't
know those results if any. I think the specific attributes given to
Puer also seem to apply to tea in general. I can say anecdotally that
black puer does help with digestion.

Jim

Dominic T. wrote:
Space Cowboy wrote:
Which one do you like the best, white or red? I've used it 30 years
for everything including fevers. I supply some to my neighbor who is
almost invalid from rheumatoid arthritis. She says it provides better
pain relief than topical prescription pain medication. You can see a
earlier post of my brother running lab tests on himself to monitor his
cholesterol levels. I'm not sure of any recent numbers. I'm about
ready to send him some Puer. I drink tea for the taste and if it keeps
me alive another day to drink some more it didn't cost me anything.

Jim

I've always used Red, simply because it was all that was available. I
was a boxer and a hockey player for 12 years, so it has come in handy
more times than I can count and in as many ways. I have arthritis in my
knee's due to the sport and it helps a bit sometimes there, but not
anything major. Fever's, Sinuses, colds, headaches, muscle pain... its
all good.

I will search for the Pu-Erh and cholesterol thread, did it work? It
seems like it would for a couple real reasons so that is why I figured
I'd give it a shot. It can't hurt him, and he gave up cigars years back
so some Pu-Erh may just bea soothing thing for him on a couple levels.

I agree with you, if it keeps me alive one day longer, that is just one
more cup of tea I get to enjoy.

- Dominic

MENSA:
Mr. Serebrayakoff, the founder of MENSA was a countryman of mine and
harbored many negative elitist attitudes of people who consider IQ as a
substitute for knowledge and hard work.
After running away from my own country almost 20 years ago I felt the
understandable urge to "belong" and having my IQ tested for free at the
Church of Scientology in Stockholm (and run away from their recruiters) I
understood that this MENSA place may be a good place to meet people who
actually know something. Joined MENSA and alas... What a disappointment!
After several years of meetings all over CA, NV and even UT and later NY and
NJ, I found nothing but a bunch of self-indulgent, mostly lazy,
overwhelmingly sloppy and unbelievably snotty crowd that just happened to
have some neurons in their brains wired in a peculiar way that allowed them
to see questionable patterns in a very specific and completely useless set
of exercises. Oh, wow!


Homeopathy -
From a point of view of what common people call "common sense" quantum
physics makes no sense either. "Common sense" has its areas of application
and its gigantic failures as a mental tool.
My life and scientific experience proved that never should we mix
experiments and theories. Theories are just interesting pastimes.
Experiments are the core of science. Most of the medical treatments had
ridiculous explanations just before the end of 19th century. But medicine
was a very successful discipline despite that since antiquity and did its
job pretty well.
Jenner invented vaccines having no idea of mechanisms of immune response and
was ridiculed for years for attempts to make a hybrid between people and
cows for years by people who used arguments very similar to yours.
I do not give a damn about homeopathic theories. I do not give a damn if
they are capable of understanding the causes and effects of their treatments
as long as the treatments themselves show results and I saw that. I have
very little interest in so-called "peer reviews" that usually used to
validate science because I saw so often how "peers" jump out of their pants
to prevent concurrent theories to see the light of day. One of the best
examples are these two guys, Marshall and Warren who got their Nobel Prize
recently for proving that stomach ulcers is a bacterial disease and can be
cured in HOURS!
For more than 20 years they were called quacks, their work pushed aside and
their results questioned because they attempted to take away hundreds of
millions if not billions of dollars from gastroenterologists. I know some of
these real quacks who even now resist the truth. Reading about their
tribulations and how their work "did not make sense" in the eyes of
gastroenterologists is a scary reading that is the best explanation I know
why we still have no serious breakthroughs in cancer treatments. Peptic
ulcers is just some hundreds of millions of $$, cancer is tens of billions
of dollars that can be potentially taken away from cancer surgeons!
So before you or my good friends Lew and Michael Plant express their views
on homeopathy so cocky and easily, I suggest you exercise a little caution.
All you do is to pre-judge something that may as well save your life one day
as it did for countless patients. I knew a guy, who is a gastroenterologist
himself and despite years of our mutual friend trying to convince him to try
antibiotics on his own wife who had peptic ulcers, he, using 'common sense"
dismissed the whole thing and her ulcers turned cancerous and she died. His
words were "What do two crazy Aussies know about ulcers that I do not know?"
Apparently a freaking lot.

Sasha.



"Dominic T." wrote in message
oups.com...

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
Jesus, man, do you ever listen? You are a programmer, can you use Google
at
least? That does not require high IQ, anyone can use it.
I stated it clear from the first time - Peter Farley the founder of
Cetus.
Haven't you read the "History of Biotechnology"?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/022...lance&n=283155
The book is about Cetus. Cetus was THE first biotech company, THE largest
IPO of all times, inventors of PCR (you know what PCR is, don't you?)
and
Peter Farley founded it.

I am not a programmer, I am a Network/System Administrator. Programming
is a small subset of my work. I was wrong then, I didn't spend time
researching if they were the same guy just because of a silly newsgroup
argument... I really don't care that much. The only Peter Farley that
stuck out in my mind was the one I mentioned. I was wrong, I am capable
and happy to admit it.

My connection to homeopathy is zero - (I wish it was not) - I work with
Farley on a completely different project - mathematically calculated
synthetic vaccines that were pioneered by Bio-Virus Research Inc. that
I
founded and own (do a search on US Patents with my last name).
However, as a scientist, I know that scientific explanation does not
warrant
truth and the lack of such an explanation does not warrant the lack of
such.
As an example I always use the aspirin. Do you know that we still do not
know how aspirin works?

I am not doubting your level of intelligence, or your scientific
background... it just has no bearing on this. I am in no way
questioning these things, but thanks for the resume, it is impressive
and I am sure you are successful. I have never claimed I do not believe
in home remedies/chinese herbs/regular herbs/etc. in fact I routinely
rely on herbs to help in certain situations and they always do.
Riccola, Tiger Balm, and many more. I am even working with my father to
see if Pu-Erh tea can truly lower his cholesterol level in an effort to
get him off of Lipitor. I believe aspirin has many beneficial
properties and it is derived from nature (the willow tree). However
true homeopathy states that the less of something is the most
effective, to the point of complete absense. That is selling snake oil.
Make sure you understand the real story behind homeopathy, not just the
accepted definition of natural cures... they are two majorly different
things. Take Zicam for instance, it is Zinc and salt. The salt dries up
the mucus and the zinc has been debated as far as its properties,
people believe it works and who knows it really may. However it
contains massive amounts of zinc, if it were a true homeopathic remedy
it would contain almost none at all if any... that is my problem with
homeopathy. Selling essentially air for money.

Farley and Dr. Diamond currently developed a treatment that almost
completely alleviate the suffering of AZT-taking AIDS patients based on
their whole new set of medical approached that combine homeopathy and
Chinese herbal medicine. You may not believe this "quackery" but South
African government distribute it all over their AIDS hospitals, but you
right - what do they know? They are not MENSA members... But wait, I
was!
But what did I do with my MENSA membership? I remember wiping something
with
it, but what?
Well, may be Farley's being a member of Reagan's "Technology Cabinet" for
8
years will qualify him? No? Being one of the founders of "Young
Presidents
Club"? No? Being the first MD with MBA from Stanford? No?

Again, many very smart people have gone down wrong paths and spent
massive amounts of time and efforts on unproven and later debunked
ideas. No one is outside of that, Einstein, Edison, and even your
beloved Mr. Farley (the correct one this time). No one is ever that
smart, to never be wrong. You can dismiss MENSA all you want, it is
quite common for a lot of people to do... nothing new to me. Why do you
harbor such hatred and resentment towards the organization? It is
actually pretty meaningless and there have been many members who were
murders, psychos, and nut-jobs, but they all had high IQ's. IQ is not a
major measure of intelligence in my eyes, and my mention of it was to
just show that I hadn't just fell of the turnip truck either. I have
family members in scientific and medical backgrounds and also personal
interests that I pursue, including one of the countries top
Neurosurgeons. Fancy degrees and status do not impress or mean much to
me, I have learned some of my most valuable lessons from common,
everday people. My grandfather, mother, a small asian grocery owner,
among others.

Again, we have drifted so far off target and the thread is most likely
not recoverable now for the initial intent, so I will respecfully end
this now. I am not angry at you nor harbor any resentment, and I am
more than open to speaking with you further about any number of
topics... and as always you are welcome to email me anytime. I honestly
mean that, not being a smart-ass.

Take Care,
- Dominic
Drinking: getting ready to brew some Dragonwell