Hi.
It may seem like I'm a bit sensitive to caffeine, so for a while I
thought I'd try some decaff tea. Unless there is some recommendable
commercial tea around, I guess I'll stick to the home-production water
method. Are there any teas/sorts of tea that are better for this
procedure than others, preferably green?
(And just to make su the right procedure is 1) pour water 2) stir for
5 seconds 3)pour the water out and 4)fill with new water and let it
steep the noramal time.)

thanks in advance.

ole k

Ole Kvaal wrote:

It may seem like I'm a bit sensitive to caffeine, so for a while I
thought I'd try some decaff tea. Unless there is some recommendable
commercial tea around, I guess I'll stick to the home-production water
method. Are there any teas/sorts of tea that are better for this
procedure than others, preferably green?
(And just to make su the right procedure is 1) pour water 2) stir for
5 seconds 3)pour the water out and 4)fill with new water and let it
steep the noramal time.)

I don't think there are any types of tea that decaffeinate
better than others. However, your stir time seems very short.
Other procedures I have read for this call for a 30 second
steep (no stiring). There are many green teas available that
are good for 2 or even 3 steepings, so even if you did a full
steep and threw it away, you should still be able to enjoy
some good teas. Note, however, that there will still be much
more caffeine left in a 2nd steep than there are in decaff
teas (which generally have 1% by weight).

I occsionally drink Upton tea's decaff "China Green". It is
fairly good.


Randy

"Ole Kvaal" wrote in message
...
Hi.
It may seem like I'm a bit sensitive to caffeine, so for a while I
thought I'd try some decaff tea. Unless there is some recommendable
commercial tea around, I guess I'll stick to the home-production water
method. Are there any teas/sorts of tea that are better for this
procedure than others, preferably green?
(And just to make su the right procedure is 1) pour water 2) stir for
5 seconds 3)pour the water out and 4)fill with new water and let it
steep the noramal time.)

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.

Up to 80% of the caffeine is removed with this method within the first 30
seconds. There's no point to going over 45 seconds as rate greatly
decreases.

As for commercially available decaf'd green tea, my favorites are Upton's
decaf green (ZG09) and The Tea Table's (http://www.theteatable.com) decaf
green tea (it's sencha) with apricot (DGTA).

HTH.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Bluesea wrote:

As for commercially available decaf'd green tea, my favorites are Upton's
decaf green (ZG09) and The Tea Table's (http://www.theteatable.com) decaf
green tea (it's sencha) with apricot (DGTA).


Thanks to both you and RJP. That's two votes for Upton's. Guess I'll
place my order today, perhaps after giving the home version a few more
times.


rgds,
ole k

Bluesea wrote:

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.


Sorry, one more question: does this steeping time also go for green teas
(as their steeping time normally is shorter than most blacks)?

ole k

"gomper" wrote:

Bluesea wrote:

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.

Sorry, one more question: does this steeping time also go for green teas (as their steeping time normally is shorter
than most blacks)?

As Bluesea doesn't seem to be around today, I'll give you my answer,
which I bet is the same thing (s)he will say. Yes, this decaffeinating
steep time is independent of tea type. The fact that greens get astringent
at normal steep times for blacks is not really relevant - its how quickly
the caffeine goes into solution, which ought not to depend so much
on tea type (although it probably varies with leaf size).


--
Randy
(To reply by e-mail, remove DeLeTe and SPAMFREE from my address)

"gomper" wrote in message
...
Bluesea wrote:

As for commercially available decaf'd green tea, my favorites are
Upton's
decaf green (ZG09) and The Tea Table's (http://www.theteatable.com)
decaf
green tea (it's sencha) with apricot (DGTA).


Thanks to both you and RJP. That's two votes for Upton's. Guess I'll
place my order today, perhaps after giving the home version a few more
times.

The Upton's, the decaf apricot green, and Upton's Lung Ching are my standard
green teas and I enjoy the decaf greens both hot and refrigerator brewed.

I think the main advantage to a commercially CO2 decaf'd tea is that 99% of
the caffeine is removed without any residual chemical alteration of the
tea's flavor compared to up to 80% for the do-it-yourself method.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"RJP" wrote in message
...
"gomper" wrote:

Bluesea wrote:

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.

Sorry, one more question: does this steeping time also go for green teas
(as their steeping time normally is shorter
than most blacks)?

As Bluesea doesn't seem to be around today, I'll give you my answer,
which I bet is the same thing (s)he will say. Yes, this decaffeinating
steep time is independent of tea type. The fact that greens get
astringent
at normal steep times for blacks is not really relevant - its how quickly
the caffeine goes into solution, which ought not to depend so much
on tea type (although it probably varies with leaf size).

Thanks, Randy. I've been busy off-line poring over an Upton catalog for gift
selections for a couple of friends .

Yes, I agree. Because caffeine is water soluble, the degree of oxidation
(black, green, white, etc.) doesn't really matter. However, leaf
type/location on the plant does matter because, for example, a tippy leaf
(first or second) contains more caffeine than do other leaves.

Which leads me to think that the reason that older/bigger leaves contain
less caffeine is simply because they've been exposed to more rain which has
rinsed some of the caffeine away. This is, of course, if all other factors
such as variety of tea plant, soil and climate conditions, altitude, etc.,
are the same.

But, when self-decaffeinating, a smaller leaf (particle) will release its
caffeine faster than a larger leaf so a small leaf may reach the 80% level
in 20 seconds while a large leaf may need 30 seconds or a little longer to
reach the 80% level.

Interestingly enough, an article in Food Research International, Vol 29,
325-330 (1996), compared the content of caffeine in various teas finding
that one of the Formosa oolongs had less caffeine than the green and black
teas on a dry weight basis, but they all had similar caffeine levels when
prepared to the directions provided.

--
~~Bluesea~~ Caffeine: an exception to "i before e except after c."
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

gomper wrote:
Bluesea wrote:

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.

Sorry, one more question: does this steeping time also go for green teas
(as their steeping time normally is shorter than most blacks)?

Yes. That time is related to the solubility of the caffeine. Now, it will
affect the taste more for green teas since it's now longer in proportion
to the total steeping time, but it still works well and doesn't make much
of a change.

This may not work well for something like a gunpowder tea which is in
balls that need some soaking to open, because you won't have as good an
opportunity to get the caffeine into solution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 21 Aug 2005 10:31:59 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

gomper wrote:
Bluesea wrote:

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.
snip
This may not work well for something like a gunpowder tea which is in
balls that need some soaking to open, because you won't have as good an
opportunity to get the caffeine into solution.
--scott

Hi Scott, I just posted something very similar to this in the puerh
caffeine thread. To rinse a ball type tea, or flaked but still
compressed pieces of puerh, I have found that it works well to do one
rinse, then let the tea sit for a minute or two so the compressed tea
can start to absorb some moisture and expand a little, then rinse it a
second time. The effect on the flavor of puerh, not sure about
gunpowder, is negligible.
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

I think caffeine is directly proportional to taste. It is just another
component that makes up tea taste. A weak tasting second cup means
much less caffeine than the first. If multilple infusions hold up in
taste then more caffeine in each cup. Most of the elements that make
up tea taste are determined by leaching rates and not solubility. The
CO2 processing for reducing caffeine and not affecting taste is a
different principle than adding water to leaves and pouring off the
first infusion and declaring the caffeine arbitrarily reduced by a
percentage.

Jim

Scott Dorsey wrote:
gomper wrote:
Bluesea wrote:

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.

Sorry, one more question: does this steeping time also go for green teas
(as their steeping time normally is shorter than most blacks)?

Yes. That time is related to the solubility of the caffeine. Now, it will
affect the taste more for green teas since it's now longer in proportion
to the total steeping time, but it still works well and doesn't make much
of a change.

This may not work well for something like a gunpowder tea which is in
balls that need some soaking to open, because you won't have as good an
opportunity to get the caffeine into solution.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 21 Aug 2005 09:37:36 -0700, "Space Cowboy"
wrote:

I think caffeine is directly proportional to taste. It is just another
component that makes up tea taste.

True, caffeine does affect taste, it is bitter.

A weak tasting second cup means
much less caffeine than the first.

If multilple infusions hold up in
taste then more caffeine in each cup.

Neither of these statements make much scientific sense unless it is
just coincidence based on your method of brewing. To draw these
conclusions you must assume that caffeine will be extracted at the
same rate as the other flavor components, it has been scientifically
proven that these components dissolve at very different rates and that
caffeine is one of the fastest dissolving components by a long shot.

Most of the elements that make
up tea taste are determined by leaching rates and not solubility.

What is the difference? Are they not flip sides of the same coin with
regards to extraction?

The
CO2 processing for reducing caffeine and not affecting taste is a
different principle than adding water to leaves and pouring off the
first infusion and declaring the caffeine arbitrarily reduced by a
percentage.

Nothing arbitrary as the caffeine is significantly reduced, it is
quite proven, now the exact percentage extracted depends on several
variables mostly involving leaf permeability and the process of
extraction being used, time, temp, method, etc.

In addition to the CO2 process there is also a "Swiss Water" process
that uses only water to decaffeinate the beans, unfortunately in the
case of coffee it also removes flavor components as well.
http://www.swisswater.com/decaf


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

Space Cowboy wrote:
I think caffeine is directly proportional to taste. It is just another
component that makes up tea taste.

It is, it adds some bitterness to the taste. But it's only one component,
and it's one that is more soluble than most of the others.

A weak tasting second cup means
much less caffeine than the first. If multilple infusions hold up in
taste then more caffeine in each cup. Most of the elements that make
up tea taste are determined by leaching rates and not solubility.

I suspect you'll find that they are almost nearly the same thing. But
it shouldn't take much to find out. Xanthine titres are easy to do in
your kitchen without much work.

The
CO2 processing for reducing caffeine and not affecting taste is a
different principle than adding water to leaves and pouring off the
first infusion and declaring the caffeine arbitrarily reduced by a
percentage.

It certainly is, but what does that have to do with anything?
There are a bunch of other solvent methods possible as well.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

You need to drink more types of tea and then come back in 30 years and
give us your answer versus the amount of caffeine in multiple infusions
as a general rule. Some teas maintain their astringency after several
infusions and for a few it even gets worse. That means the caffeine is
still present while the taste is gone. It is easily reproducible in
some cases by drinking the first infusion then drinking the second a
while later and noting the physical characteristcs like the jitters,
sweating, alertness, palpatations, etc. I say that in general where
there is taste there is caffeine. When you do drink tea that is decaf
it seems to be missing something. So when we speak of caffeine water
solubility that doesn't preclude a leaching rate which might be similar
to the other taste components. It doesn't take a chemistry major to
conclude the less caffeine by weight in the first cup by weight the
less in the second if taste is the starting point. I use a lot less
puerh per cup than say Yunnan black gold which I think the stronger the
better. I wouldn't drink it before bedtime because it makes a lousy
cup of weak tea. It's a great breakfast drink. I say that one is a
good candidate for caffeine in the second or third infusion with the
described physical caffeine reaction. I think the Yunnan's in general
have multiple infusions with caffeine and taste. In other words they
hold something back on the first infusion all things being equal. It
is the cultivar and not some given rate of caffeine solution for all
teas. Duh.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
On 21 Aug 2005 09:37:36 -0700, "Space Cowboy"
wrote:

I think caffeine is directly proportional to taste. It is just another
component that makes up tea taste.

True, caffeine does affect taste, it is bitter.

A weak tasting second cup means
much less caffeine than the first.

If multilple infusions hold up in
taste then more caffeine in each cup.

Neither of these statements make much scientific sense unless it is
just coincidence based on your method of brewing. To draw these
conclusions you must assume that caffeine will be extracted at the
same rate as the other flavor components, it has been scientifically
proven that these components dissolve at very different rates and that
caffeine is one of the fastest dissolving components by a long shot.

Most of the elements that make
up tea taste are determined by leaching rates and not solubility.

What is the difference? Are they not flip sides of the same coin with
regards to extraction?

The
CO2 processing for reducing caffeine and not affecting taste is a
different principle than adding water to leaves and pouring off the
first infusion and declaring the caffeine arbitrarily reduced by a
percentage.

Nothing arbitrary as the caffeine is significantly reduced, it is
quite proven, now the exact percentage extracted depends on several
variables mostly involving leaf permeability and the process of
extraction being used, time, temp, method, etc.

In addition to the CO2 process there is also a "Swiss Water" process
that uses only water to decaffeinate the beans, unfortunately in the
case of coffee it also removes flavor components as well.
http://www.swisswater.com/decaf


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

On 21 Aug 2005 14:28:12 -0700, "Space Cowboy"
wrote:

You need to drink more types of tea and then come back in 30 years and
give us your answer versus the amount of caffeine in multiple infusions
as a general rule.

I do believe I have paid the price of admission Jim. Just because I
have a website about puerh doesn't mean I don't drink other teas. I
drink a lot of them. I now drink so much Shincha/Sencha/Gyokuro that I
order them directly from Japan, I drink a lot of the same Yunnan teas
you describe, I drink a lot of oolongs as well although I have not
developed a full appreciation for them yet, I also drink the
occasional first flush cream of the crop Indian teas thanks to some
friends of mine. So please lets just debate the facts.

Some teas maintain their astringency after several
infusions and for a few it even gets worse. That means the caffeine is
still present while the taste is gone. It is easily reproducible in
some cases by drinking the first infusion then drinking the second a
while later and noting the physical characteristcs like the jitters,
sweating, alertness, palpatations, etc. I say that in general where
there is taste there is caffeine.

Here is the fallacy of your assumptions. You make it sound like you
can measure caffeine content strictly by taste, I sincerely doubt that
your taste buds are that calibrated. Astringency does not "equal"
caffeine content. Caffeine is bitter but so are a lot of other things.
Just because a tea is astringent does NOT mean that caffeine is the
source of that astringency. Caffeine is NOT proportional to total
flavor, it is but one component that has been proven to dissolve
quicker than most others. There may be trace amounts left in the 8th
steep but percentage wise it is almost negligible. Now I do agree that
in some teas there enough "other" components that get extracted with a
hot rinse to make them taste bland however that is not the case with
puerh. I also would assume that you could play with the temperature to
find a happy medium in those cases.

snip

It
is the cultivar and not some given rate of caffeine solution for all
teas. Duh.

To look only at the cultivars is to look at the issue in a vacuum. The
brewing method, length of steep, temperature of water, size and age of
the leaf, all have an effect on caffeine content and extraction.

Once again, the "original thread" here was that you can decaffeinate
tea to a large degree by flushing it with hot water, you have offered
no proof to the contrary other than to deviate from the topic. I
cannot quote precise quantities because that would require laboratory
equipment that most of us don't have but all existing data from
existing research back up this method.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.