On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:08:56 -0600, Derek wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:27:19 +0900, kuri wrote:

"Bluesea" wrote in message

WHOA! Stop right there 'cause you're scaring me. Are you aware that a
microwave oven can super-heat water beyond the 212F boiling point w/o
it ever creating a shimmer much less a bubble?

No, it can't. Use your thermometer to check (I did). Microvawe is not magic.
The bubbling occurs at the same temp. whatever you use to heat your water,
the exception is when you do it in a pressure cooker.

Yes, it actually can. Yes, it has been documented.

A clean, smooth container in the microwave inhibits nucleation, the
transition from liquid to gas. Temperatures as high as 241 degrees
Fahrenheit have been achieved using a microwave without ever having a
bubble form. The jostling of the water when removing typically prompts
the sudden formation of bubbles, as evidenced in the boil over.

OK, I believe that this is "possible". It's just very unlikely -- at
least in my situation for several reasons. I am boiling a lot of water
(3-4 cups). It takes about 7 minutes for my microwave to bring 35
ounces of cold water to a boil. I set the timer for 10 minutes. It
never goes on and on and so is unlikely to get superheated. For some
reason, I have never experienced the lack of bubbles. Always, there
are a few bubbles well before it starts a real boil. I have one of
those turntables so maybe the turning causes a little jiggling which
kicks off the nucleation.

The same effect can actually be accomplished with a kettle. But most
kettles have seams in the metal, or patterns embossed in the bottom.
These are enough to prompt nucleation, so at 212/100 degrees, water
boils at sea level in a kettle.

Maybe my pyrex is not really clean so there are little particles on
the sides that kick off nucleation.

Remembering way back to high school chemistry, I am guessing that
keeping the container still is more important that keeping the edges
smooth. The chemistry teacher did a little experiment with
supersaturation one day. He took a beaker of water and heated it up to
80C while dissolving sugar in the water. He told us that hot water can
dissolve more suger/gram of water than colder water. When he had
dissolved as much sugar as he could, he put a pencil over the beaker
with a string with a little weight dangling down into the water. He
then turned off the bunson burner and went on with his lecture. He
told us that we had to be careful not to bump the counter where the
beaker was sitting.

After 30 minutes or so, he came back to the beaker which was now much
cooler. He took a knife or something and tapped the side of the beaker
one time. In a flash, the string was covered with sugar crystals --
like the rock candy you sometimes see in novelty stores. He explained
that when the water cooled, it became super saturated. There was more
sugar in the water than the water could handle, but the crystalization
couldn't get started. The tap got it started.

The string was to give it a place with some rough edges to get started
on. Without the string, he said, it mght not form crystals or it wold
form on any little rough spot or impurity on the edges of the beaker.

I don't know if this relevant, but something similar might be
happening with the water and the formation of bubbles.

I have "tested" several different microwaves over the years, and on
several instances, I produced a cup of water that was over 212/100
when measured with a thermometer but never produced a bubble.

However, to accomplish the "boilover" in a microwave typically
requires overcooking the water by a couple of times beyond what was
necessary to achieve a boiling temperature.

That makes sense. I never let it go much more than a minute or so past
the boiling point.

--
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(11/09/04)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:44:12 GMT, "DPM" wrote:


"Top Spin" wrote in message
.. .
I purchased 50 g of a tea labelled "Makaibari Estate FTGFOP1" at a
local tea shop on their recommendation. I have made two 4-cup pots so
far. One seemed weak and the other astringent.

[snip]

Darjeelings are fussy teas - you need to be very careful about brewing time
and temperature. Also, the combination of more tea/less time seems (to me)
to work better than the reverse. When you find the right combination, IMHO
there is no better tea on earth!

Try the Makaibari (a top-flight producer, BTW) with water slightly under
boiling, and try 2, 2.5 and 3 minute steeps. I generally use one rounded
teaspoon of tea per 8oz of water; if the leaves seem large, toss in an extra
half-teaspoon. I'd avoid using a microwave to heat the tea water, although
it's OK for heating the pot. Tea made with microwaved water never tastes
the same (or as good, I think) as with water conventionally heated.

Regards,
Dean

OK, I'll try shorter steep times.

Do you also recommend trying it at lower temperatures?

--
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(11/09/04)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 08:49:38 -0800, Top Spin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:08:56 -0600, Derek wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:27:19 +0900, kuri wrote:

"Bluesea" wrote in message

WHOA! Stop right there 'cause you're scaring me. Are you aware that a
microwave oven can super-heat water beyond the 212F boiling point w/o
it ever creating a shimmer much less a bubble?

No, it can't. Use your thermometer to check (I did). Microvawe is not magic.
The bubbling occurs at the same temp. whatever you use to heat your water,
the exception is when you do it in a pressure cooker.

Yes, it actually can. Yes, it has been documented.

A clean, smooth container in the microwave inhibits nucleation, the
transition from liquid to gas. Temperatures as high as 241 degrees
Fahrenheit have been achieved using a microwave without ever having a
bubble form. The jostling of the water when removing typically prompts
the sudden formation of bubbles, as evidenced in the boil over.

OK, I believe that this is "possible". It's just very unlikely -- at
least in my situation for several reasons. I am boiling a lot of water
(3-4 cups). It takes about 7 minutes for my microwave to bring 35
ounces of cold water to a boil. I set the timer for 10 minutes. It
never goes on and on and so is unlikely to get superheated. For some
reason, I have never experienced the lack of bubbles. Always, there
are a few bubbles well before it starts a real boil. I have one of
those turntables so maybe the turning causes a little jiggling which
kicks off the nucleation.

The point is that it is "possible." But, like you say, it's very
unlikely.

The turntable likely "helps," as does the natural convection of the
heating water. It's one of those things - if all of the elements are
right, it can happen. But the improbability factor of all of the
elements be right is so great that it'd probably take you to Alpha
Centauri and back.

(Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.)


The same effect can actually be accomplished with a kettle. But most
kettles have seams in the metal, or patterns embossed in the bottom.
These are enough to prompt nucleation, so at 212/100 degrees, water
boils at sea level in a kettle.

Maybe my pyrex is not really clean so there are little particles on
the sides that kick off nucleation.

Or not completely smooth. Or any number of other issues - like the
fact that your microwave has a turntable.

Remembering way back to high school chemistry, I am guessing that
keeping the container still is more important that keeping the edges
smooth. The chemistry teacher did a little experiment with
supersaturation one day. He took a beaker of water and heated it up to
80C while dissolving sugar in the water. He told us that hot water can
dissolve more suger/gram of water than colder water. When he had
dissolved as much sugar as he could, he put a pencil over the beaker
with a string with a little weight dangling down into the water. He
then turned off the bunson burner and went on with his lecture. He
told us that we had to be careful not to bump the counter where the
beaker was sitting.

After 30 minutes or so, he came back to the beaker which was now much
cooler. He took a knife or something and tapped the side of the beaker
one time. In a flash, the string was covered with sugar crystals --
like the rock candy you sometimes see in novelty stores. He explained
that when the water cooled, it became super saturated. There was more
sugar in the water than the water could handle, but the crystalization
couldn't get started. The tap got it started.

The string was to give it a place with some rough edges to get started
on. Without the string, he said, it mght not form crystals or it wold
form on any little rough spot or impurity on the edges of the beaker.

That's always a fun experiment. I can't wait to do it with my kid in a
couple of years. You know, opening young minds to science and all
that.

I don't know if this relevant, but something similar might be
happening with the water and the formation of bubbles.

Same idea, I would suspect.

I have "tested" several different microwaves over the years, and on
several instances, I produced a cup of water that was over 212/100
when measured with a thermometer but never produced a bubble.

However, to accomplish the "boilover" in a microwave typically
requires overcooking the water by a couple of times beyond what was
necessary to achieve a boiling temperature.

That makes sense. I never let it go much more than a minute or so past
the boiling point.

See? So you're safe.

--
Derek

When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the
effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness.

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 08:50:34 -0800, Top Spin wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:44:12 GMT, "DPM" wrote:


"Top Spin" wrote in message
. ..
I purchased 50 g of a tea labelled "Makaibari Estate FTGFOP1" at a
local tea shop on their recommendation. I have made two 4-cup pots so
far. One seemed weak and the other astringent.

[snip]

Darjeelings are fussy teas - you need to be very careful about brewing time
and temperature. Also, the combination of more tea/less time seems (to me)
to work better than the reverse. When you find the right combination, IMHO
there is no better tea on earth!

Try the Makaibari (a top-flight producer, BTW) with water slightly under
boiling, and try 2, 2.5 and 3 minute steeps. I generally use one rounded
teaspoon of tea per 8oz of water; if the leaves seem large, toss in an extra
half-teaspoon. I'd avoid using a microwave to heat the tea water, although
it's OK for heating the pot. Tea made with microwaved water never tastes
the same (or as good, I think) as with water conventionally heated.

Regards,
Dean

OK, I'll try shorter steep times.

Do you also recommend trying it at lower temperatures?

Personally, I steep Darjeelings at less than boiling. The full roll
that I dump on Assams and China Blacks seems to "disagree" with
Darjeelings.

But, like everything with tea, that's a matter of taste.
--
Derek

On the sixth day, God created the platypus. And God said, "Let's see
the evolutionists try and figure this one out."

"Top Spin" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Try the Makaibari (a top-flight producer, BTW) with water slightly under
boiling, and try 2, 2.5 and 3 minute steeps. I generally use one rounded
teaspoon of tea per 8oz of water; if the leaves seem large, toss in an
extra
half-teaspoon. I'd avoid using a microwave to heat the tea water,
although
it's OK for heating the pot. Tea made with microwaved water never tastes
the same (or as good, I think) as with water conventionally heated.

Regards,
Dean

OK, I'll try shorter steep times.

Do you also recommend trying it at lower temperatures?


Yes - if you have a thermometer available, try water in the 190-200F range.

Personally, I think most Darjeelings are really oolong-style teas. In fact,
I've had first-flush Darjeelings that appeared to be completely green - no
visible leaf-edge browning at all! So treat them like you would a good
Tieguanyin or Pouchong: water 10-20 degrees F under boiling and short
steeps. In fact, if the leaf style is bold you can get a respectable second
infusion from them if you keep the first steep at 2 minutes or less.

Regards,
Dean

The turntable likely "helps," as does the natural convection of the
heating water. It's one of those things - if all of the elements are
right, it can happen. But the improbability factor of all of the
elements be right is so great that it'd probably take you to Alpha
Centauri and back.

(Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.)



Is this a referance to quantum tunneling? Or something in Hitchhiker's Guide
that I have forgotton in my dotage?

We sure have a lot of intelligent people on this list....

Melinda (that wasn't a self-compliment, lol)


--
Derek

When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the
effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness.

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 18:18:28 GMT, "DPM" wrote:


"Top Spin" wrote in message
.. .
[snip]
Try the Makaibari (a top-flight producer, BTW) with water slightly under
boiling, and try 2, 2.5 and 3 minute steeps. I generally use one rounded
teaspoon of tea per 8oz of water; if the leaves seem large, toss in an
extra
half-teaspoon. I'd avoid using a microwave to heat the tea water,
although
it's OK for heating the pot. Tea made with microwaved water never tastes
the same (or as good, I think) as with water conventionally heated.

Regards,
Dean

OK, I'll try shorter steep times.

Do you also recommend trying it at lower temperatures?


Yes - if you have a thermometer available, try water in the 190-200F range.

Personally, I think most Darjeelings are really oolong-style teas. In fact,
I've had first-flush Darjeelings that appeared to be completely green - no
visible leaf-edge browning at all! So treat them like you would a good
Tieguanyin or Pouchong: water 10-20 degrees F under boiling and short
steeps. In fact, if the leaf style is bold you can get a respectable second
infusion from them if you keep the first steep at 2 minutes or less.

Regards,
Dean

I happened to find a boxed tea at the supermarket called Afternoon
Darjeeling from Taylors of Harrogate. Just for fun, I bought a box.
It's loose tea in a foil bag. It recommends "one tsp/cup plus one for
the pot" and to brew it for 4-6 minutes in a warmed teapot with
boiling water.

I tried a pot with 7 grams of tea and it tasted kinda weak. I'll try
it again later with more tea, but there was no bitterness or
astringncy. so, you are all correct. Every tea is different and you
just have to try various methods until you find one you like.

That's tough on us techies who like formulas. (sigh) ;-)

--
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(11/09/04)

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:23:21 -0800, Melinda wrote:


The turntable likely "helps," as does the natural convection of the
heating water. It's one of those things - if all of the elements are
right, it can happen. But the improbability factor of all of the
elements be right is so great that it'd probably take you to Alpha
Centauri and back.

(Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.)



Is this a referance to quantum tunneling? Or something in Hitchhiker's Guide
that I have forgotton in my dotage?

We sure have a lot of intelligent people on this list....

Melinda (that wasn't a self-compliment, lol)

[ding] [ding] [ding]

Got it on the second guess.

Kudos!

--
Derek

The nice thing about losing one's marbles is that you only have to
pick up the ones you want.

"Top Spin" wrote in message
...

OK, I believe that this is "possible". It's just very unlikely -- at
least in my situation for several reasons. I am boiling a lot of water
(3-4 cups).

As I noted previously, my situation involved 24 oz.

I have one of
those turntables so maybe the turning causes a little jiggling which
kicks off the nucleation.

The microwave that exploded my water also had a turntable and I had used it
w/o incident several times before under similar conditions to "boil" water
for tea.

It was just one of those things that falls under "right time + right place =
shit happens." Since it happened to me, and it's happened to others as you
read on the .gov link I posted, it *could* happen to you, also. I'm just
here to tell you. Also, please note that you aren't limited to adding sugar
or instant coffee to avoid exploding water - it can be anything that's
microwave-safe such as one of those plastic stir-sticks that fast-food
places provide for coffee or a wooden spoon or stick.

'Nuf said. I've done my part.

--
~~Bluesea~~ "A word to the wise is sufficient."
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Top Spin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:01:15 -0600, "Bluesea"
wrote:

Usually, the type and amount of tea affects the intensity of flavor (for
example, a Darjeeling is "delicate" and an Assam is "robust") while
oversteeping causes bitterness and too high a temperature for green tea
causes astringency. Since black teas are typically best brewed with
boiling
water, but you may have super-heated your water by using your microwave
and
used a tea ball, it's hard for me to tell.

It's a black tea ...

Something I forgot - What I was trying to say was that since too high a
temperature for green tea causes astringency and since you're using a
microwave w/o checking the temperature with a thermometer and don't really
know if your water's boiling at 212F or higher because it might be
superheated, it's possible that the astringency with your black tea is also
caused by too high of a temperature, i.e. a temperature that's over 212F.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Top Spin" wrote in message
...

I tried a pot with 7 grams of tea and it tasted kinda weak. I'll try
it again later with more tea, but there was no bitterness or
astringncy. so, you are all correct. Every tea is different and you
just have to try various methods until you find one you like.

That's tough on us techies who like formulas. (sigh) ;-)

Yabut, yabut (I see your winkie) - when you get a new tea, you get to figure
out what works best for you...a personalized formula...and then you stick
with it until you run out of that particular tea.

I got a small journal to record all my tests and impressions and it's kinda
fun to get another batch of the same tea the following year and see if the
"formula" for that tea still works.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:46:24 -0600, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"Top Spin" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:01:15 -0600, "Bluesea"
wrote:

Usually, the type and amount of tea affects the intensity of flavor (for
example, a Darjeeling is "delicate" and an Assam is "robust") while
oversteeping causes bitterness and too high a temperature for green tea
causes astringency. Since black teas are typically best brewed with
boiling
water, but you may have super-heated your water by using your microwave
and
used a tea ball, it's hard for me to tell.

It's a black tea ...

Something I forgot - What I was trying to say was that since too high a
temperature for green tea causes astringency and since you're using a
microwave w/o checking the temperature with a thermometer and don't really
know if your water's boiling at 212F or higher because it might be
superheated, it's possible that the astringency with your black tea is also
caused by too high of a temperature, i.e. a temperature that's over 212F.

Oh, sorry. I have been checking the temperature with one of those
probe thermometers. I should have mentioned that.

We are at sea level (100'). The thermometer reads close to 212 when
the bubbles start appearing. It I add part of a small glass of cold
water, it drops about 10 degrees.

But I think you are right about the astringency and also the
bitterness. I will try lower temperatures and shorter brew times.

Thanks

--
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(11/09/04)

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:57:47 -0600, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"Top Spin" wrote in message
.. .

I tried a pot with 7 grams of tea and it tasted kinda weak. I'll try
it again later with more tea, but there was no bitterness or
astringncy. so, you are all correct. Every tea is different and you
just have to try various methods until you find one you like.

That's tough on us techies who like formulas. (sigh) ;-)

Yabut, yabut (I see your winkie) - when you get a new tea, you get to figure
out what works best for you...a personalized formula...and then you stick
with it until you run out of that particular tea.

I got a small journal to record all my tests and impressions and it's kinda
fun to get another batch of the same tea the following year and see if the
"formula" for that tea still works.

And I will probably set up a database to keep track of everything,
most of which I will never refer to ever again.

--
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(11/09/04)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 21:32:33 -0800, Top Spin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:57:47 -0600, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"Top Spin" wrote in message
. ..

I tried a pot with 7 grams of tea and it tasted kinda weak. I'll try
it again later with more tea, but there was no bitterness or
astringncy. so, you are all correct. Every tea is different and you
just have to try various methods until you find one you like.

That's tough on us techies who like formulas. (sigh) ;-)

Yabut, yabut (I see your winkie) - when you get a new tea, you get to figure
out what works best for you...a personalized formula...and then you stick
with it until you run out of that particular tea.

I got a small journal to record all my tests and impressions and it's kinda
fun to get another batch of the same tea the following year and see if the
"formula" for that tea still works.

And I will probably set up a database to keep track of everything,
most of which I will never refer to ever again.

Tea Geek!

Not that I ever set up a database to keep track of my tea experiences.
No way would I ever do that. Nor would I find a way of synchronizing
those databases with another database program on my Palm handheld
computer. I absolutely wouldn't do that.

Now, if you'll excuse me, my nose has recently enlarged itself quite
dramatically for some reason, and it is making it hard to see the
screen.

--
Derek

The harder you try, the dumber you look.

Bluesea wrote:
WHOA! Stop right there 'cause you're scaring me. Are you aware that a
microwave oven can super-heat water beyond the 212F boiling point w/o
it
ever creating a shimmer much less a bubble? And, if conditions are
right,
it'll explode spontaneously and scald you.

Any danger of explosion if I put my plastic IngeniTEA in the microwave?
I typically fill the IngeniTea with cold water and microwave for 4 or
5 minutes. I *usually* get bubbles.

Thanks,
Jennifer