Dog Ma 1 wrote:

Your comment borders on hysteria. (I'm not sure from which side.) On what
authority do you assert this warning? The scientific, biomedical and
epidemiological didactics of Miss Marple?

I didn't want to prove my authority with Miss Marple, it was just to
render a an example, of course.

BTW, "that stuff" is not highly toxic; in fact, it's hardly toxic at all. It
is a strong irritant and can do rapid tissue damage,e specially to the eyes
and mucus membranes. The salient difference is that diluting a gram of
bleach in a liter of water makes a solution that won't hurt people and
doesn't even taste all that bad, compared (say) with stale Lipton bag tea.
Diluting a real "highly toxic" poison like botulinum toxin or even
(relatively pallid) aresnic won't make it much less toxic - with bleach,
it's mainly the concentration that's an issue.

It's ALWAYS about concentration.

BTW #2: a little browsing will reveal that all common bleaches are used
routinely in food preparation, e.g. for bleaching flour. We eat them all the
time.

I don't eat bleached Flour, only whole grain products :-)
Okay, seriously. There are substances out there that are used for
'bleaching'. The summation of them all to the word 'bleach' is without
respect to their chemical nature. After all, chlorine is also a good
bleach. So if people reccomend 'bleach', they should damn well better
say WHAT they are talking about, i.e. which compound. There are cleaning
fluids out there sold as 'bleach' that contain a lot more than only a
'bleaching' compound.

For non toxic, easy to get chemicals, just go to your local supermarket
and buy some baking soda, this should work fine in most cases.

Eat a few spoonfuls of that and then decide if it's toxic. That much sodium
alone would kill many people, if they weren't fortunate enough to expel it.
Then there's the mega-burp menace.

Sure. Gulp down a a litre of a bleaching compund of your choice and see
what happens. Every compund out there is able to kill you, you just have
to take enough of it. I've heard of people getting killed by drinking to
much water, as they rinsed all their salts out of their bodies. (Though
that sounds urban legend'ish). Telling people to clean their pots with
baking soda is far away from instructing them to 'gulp down a few
spoonfulls'.

Someone here mentioned oxidants. Might be a good Idea.

What do you think most bleaches are? There are enzymic systems and some that
use reduction to remove color, but almost all are oxidants.

I NOW what bleaches are. Still I don't think it is a good Idea to use
the 'bleaches' you can by anywhere, due to side products and additional
compounds. H2O2 can be bought in Pharmacies, so you know what is in
there, you just have to ASK.

Hydrogenperoxide of very high purity might
be suitable. You should get it at pharmacies, and a solution of about
3-5% in Water should be well enough.
DISCLAIMER: I never tried to clean my pot with Hydrogenperoxide.

"Pure" H2O2 - practically limited to about 90% - is an intimidatingly
dangerous material even to a chemist.

What was your problem in understanding 3-5%? Get to your Labratories
Chemical Storage. You might find something like H2O2, 30%, PURE FOR
ANALYSIS or something. With H2O2 'pure' in most cases refers to the
purity of the SOLVENT, Water in most cases. That's what I am talking
about, clinical grade is very pure and does not contain to many
dangerous additives, lest the compounds needed to stabilize the
hydrogenperoxide.

Further, it won't clean tea
stains nearly as well as an alkaline solution due to the cyclic enol
oxidation - Michael addition - ionization pathway for degradation of
polyphenols. As you said, you've never tried it - so why recommend it?

Good question. First, I think the solution of baking powder is enough,
and I said that. Why I 'recommended' it? Can't remember I did that. I
pointed out that there MIGHT be a god effect by h2o2, and who wants to
try, should, with all the safety precautions needed. (I would take the
same safety precautions when working with a solution of baking soda or
bleach...may that's the paranoia that you get when becoming a chemist
-)). I like my eyes, for example, and that's why I wear goggles. Both in
the lab and when working with such compunds at home.

Thanks for pointing out Michael Addition, anyway. Organic Chemistry is
not my major, still it's god to know such things ;-)

Hydrogenperozide is not toxic, so it should be suitable for cleaning.

First clause is untrue - again, drink some if you want to find out - and in
any event, very few cleaning materials are good to eat. That's why they
invented the concept of rinsing.

I restate that: Hydrogenperoxide is non toxic. It's corrosive, but non
toxic, if you are talking in terms of the lethal dose (mg substance per
kg bodyweight). Stabilizers should be toxic or irritant, that's why I
suggested to rinse well.

Sharing ideas is fine. Asserting proper technique when you know nothing of
the subject helps no-one. It's the same mentality responsible for the
results of the recent US election. Here's a concept: learn before you teach.

Here's another concept: stay on the ground. I appreciate your pointing
out my mistakes, still I think you did some, too. I don't think it's
wise to tell people to use 'bleach', as there is no 'bleach' out there.
Bleaching is a process ind which multiple compuns are used, and most of
them should not be in your teapot. So when recommending that, please
state which products you are talking about to avoid accidents.

ciao
Patrick

--
"But please remember: this is only a work of Fiction.
The truth, as always, will be far stranger"

Arthur C. Clarke, 2001 - A Space Odyssey

Dog Ma 1 wrote:

Your comment borders on hysteria. (I'm not sure from which side.) On what
authority do you assert this warning? The scientific, biomedical and
epidemiological didactics of Miss Marple?

I didn't want to prove my authority with Miss Marple, it was just to
render a an example, of course.

BTW, "that stuff" is not highly toxic; in fact, it's hardly toxic at all. It
is a strong irritant and can do rapid tissue damage,e specially to the eyes
and mucus membranes. The salient difference is that diluting a gram of
bleach in a liter of water makes a solution that won't hurt people and
doesn't even taste all that bad, compared (say) with stale Lipton bag tea.
Diluting a real "highly toxic" poison like botulinum toxin or even
(relatively pallid) aresnic won't make it much less toxic - with bleach,
it's mainly the concentration that's an issue.

It's ALWAYS about concentration.

BTW #2: a little browsing will reveal that all common bleaches are used
routinely in food preparation, e.g. for bleaching flour. We eat them all the
time.

I don't eat bleached Flour, only whole grain products :-)
Okay, seriously. There are substances out there that are used for
'bleaching'. The summation of them all to the word 'bleach' is without
respect to their chemical nature. After all, chlorine is also a good
bleach. So if people reccomend 'bleach', they should damn well better
say WHAT they are talking about, i.e. which compound. There are cleaning
fluids out there sold as 'bleach' that contain a lot more than only a
'bleaching' compound.

For non toxic, easy to get chemicals, just go to your local supermarket
and buy some baking soda, this should work fine in most cases.

Eat a few spoonfuls of that and then decide if it's toxic. That much sodium
alone would kill many people, if they weren't fortunate enough to expel it.
Then there's the mega-burp menace.

Sure. Gulp down a a litre of a bleaching compund of your choice and see
what happens. Every compund out there is able to kill you, you just have
to take enough of it. I've heard of people getting killed by drinking to
much water, as they rinsed all their salts out of their bodies. (Though
that sounds urban legend'ish). Telling people to clean their pots with
baking soda is far away from instructing them to 'gulp down a few
spoonfulls'.

Someone here mentioned oxidants. Might be a good Idea.

What do you think most bleaches are? There are enzymic systems and some that
use reduction to remove color, but almost all are oxidants.

I NOW what bleaches are. Still I don't think it is a good Idea to use
the 'bleaches' you can by anywhere, due to side products and additional
compounds. H2O2 can be bought in Pharmacies, so you know what is in
there, you just have to ASK.

Hydrogenperoxide of very high purity might
be suitable. You should get it at pharmacies, and a solution of about
3-5% in Water should be well enough.
DISCLAIMER: I never tried to clean my pot with Hydrogenperoxide.

"Pure" H2O2 - practically limited to about 90% - is an intimidatingly
dangerous material even to a chemist.

What was your problem in understanding 3-5%? Get to your Labratories
Chemical Storage. You might find something like H2O2, 30%, PURE FOR
ANALYSIS or something. With H2O2 'pure' in most cases refers to the
purity of the SOLVENT, Water in most cases. That's what I am talking
about, clinical grade is very pure and does not contain to many
dangerous additives, lest the compounds needed to stabilize the
hydrogenperoxide.

Further, it won't clean tea
stains nearly as well as an alkaline solution due to the cyclic enol
oxidation - Michael addition - ionization pathway for degradation of
polyphenols. As you said, you've never tried it - so why recommend it?

Good question. First, I think the solution of baking powder is enough,
and I said that. Why I 'recommended' it? Can't remember I did that. I
pointed out that there MIGHT be a god effect by h2o2, and who wants to
try, should, with all the safety precautions needed. (I would take the
same safety precautions when working with a solution of baking soda or
bleach...may that's the paranoia that you get when becoming a chemist
-)). I like my eyes, for example, and that's why I wear goggles. Both in
the lab and when working with such compunds at home.

Thanks for pointing out Michael Addition, anyway. Organic Chemistry is
not my major, still it's god to know such things ;-)

Hydrogenperozide is not toxic, so it should be suitable for cleaning.

First clause is untrue - again, drink some if you want to find out - and in
any event, very few cleaning materials are good to eat. That's why they
invented the concept of rinsing.

I restate that: Hydrogenperoxide is non toxic. It's corrosive, but non
toxic, if you are talking in terms of the lethal dose (mg substance per
kg bodyweight). Stabilizers should be toxic or irritant, that's why I
suggested to rinse well.

Sharing ideas is fine. Asserting proper technique when you know nothing of
the subject helps no-one. It's the same mentality responsible for the
results of the recent US election. Here's a concept: learn before you teach.

Here's another concept: stay on the ground. I appreciate your pointing
out my mistakes, still I think you did some, too. I don't think it's
wise to tell people to use 'bleach', as there is no 'bleach' out there.
Bleaching is a process ind which multiple compuns are used, and most of
them should not be in your teapot. So when recommending that, please
state which products you are talking about to avoid accidents.

ciao
Patrick

--
"But please remember: this is only a work of Fiction.
The truth, as always, will be far stranger"

Arthur C. Clarke, 2001 - A Space Odyssey

Patrick Heinze wrote:

Never use bleach or Oxiclean (Am I correct?
This is usually used with clothes?) for cleaning. Ever saw one of these
old Miss Marple Movies? The ones where people were frequently murdered
with bleach? Think about it for a second: that stuff is usually highly
toxic, and should NEVER be in contact with any food or drink.

Look what the FDA says about cleaning cutting boards:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/qa-fdb27.html

From personal experience, plastic cutting boards in restaurants and
groceries get the bleach treatment daily, and at a much higher
concentration than the FDA suggests.

--crymad