I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?

In both words, "cha" simply means tea.

"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.

"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)

Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
too?

Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?

I've come across others (jincha, zhuancha) and would appreciate the
same info about those.

Thanks,

- Joel

Hi Joel,

Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
literal definitions.

I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?

In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
Yes, that is accurate
"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
Yes, that is accurate
"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
Yes, that is accurate
Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
too?
Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.

Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)
san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Hi Joel,

Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
literal definitions.

I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?

In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
Yes, that is accurate
"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
Yes, that is accurate
"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
Yes, that is accurate
Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
too?
Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.

Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)
san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike Petro writes:

[...]
Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)

jin3 = tight

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Mike Petro writes:

[...]
Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)

jin3 = tight

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Mike,

Excellent pages, great info.
I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink". Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).

Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C. sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.

On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the pinyin
for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you actually
know that because its right there on your Rosetta page.

Sasha.


"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
Hi Joel,

Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
literal definitions.

I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?

In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
Yes, that is accurate
"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
Yes, that is accurate
"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
Yes, that is accurate
Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
too?
Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.

Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)
san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike,

Excellent pages, great info.
I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink". Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).

Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C. sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.

On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the pinyin
for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you actually
know that because its right there on your Rosetta page.

Sasha.


"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
Hi Joel,

Look at my Puerh Shapes page http://www.pu-erh.net/puerhshapes.html
or my Puerh Rosetta Page http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html for the
Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict for the
literal definitions.

I've done a little research, including asking a couple of Chinese
people I know, but have been unable to determine this to my
satisfaction. Can anyone confirm or correct the following?

In both words, "cha" simply means tea.
Yes, that is accurate
"bingcha" is tea compressed into a disc-like shape.
Yes, that is accurate
"tuocha" is tea compressed into a bowl shape (bird's nest?)
Yes, that is accurate
Any variety of tea can, theoretically, be packed as bingcha or tuocha,
i.e. it's not limited to pu-erh. Are greens sometimes packed this way
too?
Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.

Finally, does anyone know the *literal* translation of the two words?
pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times
cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant
bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake /
pastry /
tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways
tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea"
tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand
fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local
zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick
jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the
proper Chinese character)
san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu, but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu, but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese (I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese (I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not particular
where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B is
ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha
B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
B: Sugared or non sugared?
A: Sugared...


"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
. com...
Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
(I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
"buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not particular
where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B is
ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha
B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
B: Sugared or non sugared?
A: Sugared...


"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
. com...
Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
(I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
"buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Exactly.
And, therefore, CHA should be understood in general terms as a "steeped
beverage, mostly, but not necessarily from C. sinensis". And the best
translation is "tea" because in English tea also may be made from other than
C. sinenis plants.
I am almost sure that when Chinese first saw coffee they must have called it
some "CHA" before the adopted the contemporary, westernized name for it.

Sasha.

"samarkand" wrote in message
...
Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not
particular
where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B
is
ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha
B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
B: Sugared or non sugared?
A: Sugared...


"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
. com...
Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
(I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when
used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
"buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped
by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Exactly.
And, therefore, CHA should be understood in general terms as a "steeped
beverage, mostly, but not necessarily from C. sinensis". And the best
translation is "tea" because in English tea also may be made from other than
C. sinenis plants.
I am almost sure that when Chinese first saw coffee they must have called it
some "CHA" before the adopted the contemporary, westernized name for it.

Sasha.

"samarkand" wrote in message
...
Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not
particular
where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B
is
ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha
B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
B: Sugared or non sugared?
A: Sugared...


"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
. com...
Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
(I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when
used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
"buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped
by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).