Hi and hello,

I've been gleefully reading the "newbie" posts. Welcome aboard, Dave. Now,
on the little matter of the Japanese (and Chinese) tea "ceremonies," I've
got to agree with...I forget whom. Both ceremonies have their fixed
elements, rules, regs, styles, and pretentions. Nonetheless, the age of
getting your head chopped off for not towing -- toeing? -- the line are most
likely coming to an end. So, it's safe to muck about with the ceremonies.
When in doubt, make it up. But...do it with style...whatever that means.

On the subject of knowing about tea, therein lies an interesting idea/l. You
could learn about tea until you're blue in the face, and not get it. You
could drink thousands of gallons of tea and know nothing about it. Either
way is fine, I think. Why not? But, given my druthers, I'd consider the
latter the better: The tea will teach you all you need to know.

Michael

I respectfully cannot disagree more.

1. What are the gongfu fixed element, reg, etc? There is nothing ceremonial
about it at all. Comparing gongfu with Japanese ceremony in these terms is
baseless.

2. You can bring pink baloons to the funeral or fart during pledge of
allegiance and still keep your head from being chopped off. So what? Even if
you do not respect the deseased or are against the pledge, why insult the
feelings of people who do?
If all you want is to enjoy tea as a drink why "muck about" the world of
deep symbolism and national pride of a society that made the Tea Ceremony
its national almost religious ritual? Bushido said that even for a samurai
it is better not to know it at all and never particpiate in it rather than
do it in an amateur way. If these people put so much of their soul into
something, why not just let them have it?
You can buy the tea, the wisk, all the things to make both teas they use for
the ceremony and drink it without ever touching the ritual side, but why
"muck about"? Just because you can do it without your head being chopped
off?

Alex.


"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Hi and hello,

I've been gleefully reading the "newbie" posts. Welcome aboard, Dave. Now,
on the little matter of the Japanese (and Chinese) tea "ceremonies," I've
got to agree with...I forget whom. Both ceremonies have their fixed
elements, rules, regs, styles, and pretentions. Nonetheless, the age of
getting your head chopped off for not towing -- toeing? -- the line are
most
likely coming to an end. So, it's safe to muck about with the ceremonies.
When in doubt, make it up. But...do it with style...whatever that means.

On the subject of knowing about tea, therein lies an interesting idea/l.
You
could learn about tea until you're blue in the face, and not get it. You
could drink thousands of gallons of tea and know nothing about it. Either
way is fine, I think. Why not? But, given my druthers, I'd consider the
latter the better: The tea will teach you all you need to know.

Michael

I respectfully cannot disagree more.

1. What are the gongfu fixed element, reg, etc? There is nothing ceremonial
about it at all. Comparing gongfu with Japanese ceremony in these terms is
baseless.

2. You can bring pink baloons to the funeral or fart during pledge of
allegiance and still keep your head from being chopped off. So what? Even if
you do not respect the deseased or are against the pledge, why insult the
feelings of people who do?
If all you want is to enjoy tea as a drink why "muck about" the world of
deep symbolism and national pride of a society that made the Tea Ceremony
its national almost religious ritual? Bushido said that even for a samurai
it is better not to know it at all and never particpiate in it rather than
do it in an amateur way. If these people put so much of their soul into
something, why not just let them have it?
You can buy the tea, the wisk, all the things to make both teas they use for
the ceremony and drink it without ever touching the ritual side, but why
"muck about"? Just because you can do it without your head being chopped
off?

Alex.


"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Hi and hello,

I've been gleefully reading the "newbie" posts. Welcome aboard, Dave. Now,
on the little matter of the Japanese (and Chinese) tea "ceremonies," I've
got to agree with...I forget whom. Both ceremonies have their fixed
elements, rules, regs, styles, and pretentions. Nonetheless, the age of
getting your head chopped off for not towing -- toeing? -- the line are
most
likely coming to an end. So, it's safe to muck about with the ceremonies.
When in doubt, make it up. But...do it with style...whatever that means.

On the subject of knowing about tea, therein lies an interesting idea/l.
You
could learn about tea until you're blue in the face, and not get it. You
could drink thousands of gallons of tea and know nothing about it. Either
way is fine, I think. Why not? But, given my druthers, I'd consider the
latter the better: The tea will teach you all you need to know.

Michael

"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
om...
I respectfully cannot disagree more.

1. What are the gongfu fixed element, reg, etc? There is nothing
ceremonial
about it at all. Comparing gongfu with Japanese ceremony in these terms is
baseless.

2. You can bring pink baloons to the funeral or fart during pledge of
allegiance and still keep your head from being chopped off. So what? Even
if
you do not respect the deseased or are against the pledge, why insult the
feelings of people who do?
If all you want is to enjoy tea as a drink why "muck about" the world of
deep symbolism and national pride of a society that made the Tea Ceremony
its national almost religious ritual? Bushido said that even for a samurai
it is better not to know it at all and never particpiate in it rather than
do it in an amateur way. If these people put so much of their soul into
something, why not just let them have it?
You can buy the tea, the wisk, all the things to make both teas they use
for
the ceremony and drink it without ever touching the ritual side, but why
"muck about"? Just because you can do it without your head being chopped
off?

Alex.

You miss the point, Alex- the point being that Michael acts like an expert
about things where he has no real knowledge.

As Alex stated, gong-fu is not a ceremony. Japan's tea ceremony is tied to a
lot of different things- even jazz musicians know that you have to
understand something fully before you can improv on it. Mucking with
something you don't understand won't improve your understanding of why
people do it, how they do it, or the history of doing it.
I am sure that Michael is a nice, well-meaning guy. However, he mixes
naivete and arrogance in a manner that would frighten a sophisticated 9 year
old.


"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Hi and hello,

I've been gleefully reading the "newbie" posts. Welcome aboard, Dave.
Now,
on the little matter of the Japanese (and Chinese) tea "ceremonies,"
I've
got to agree with...I forget whom. Both ceremonies have their fixed
elements, rules, regs, styles, and pretentions. Nonetheless, the age of
getting your head chopped off for not towing -- toeing? -- the line are
most
likely coming to an end. So, it's safe to muck about with the
ceremonies.
When in doubt, make it up. But...do it with style...whatever that means.

On the subject of knowing about tea, therein lies an interesting idea/l.
You
could learn about tea until you're blue in the face, and not get it. You
could drink thousands of gallons of tea and know nothing about it.
Either
way is fine, I think. Why not? But, given my druthers, I'd consider the
latter the better: The tea will teach you all you need to know.

Michael

"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
om...
I respectfully cannot disagree more.

1. What are the gongfu fixed element, reg, etc? There is nothing
ceremonial
about it at all. Comparing gongfu with Japanese ceremony in these terms is
baseless.

2. You can bring pink baloons to the funeral or fart during pledge of
allegiance and still keep your head from being chopped off. So what? Even
if
you do not respect the deseased or are against the pledge, why insult the
feelings of people who do?
If all you want is to enjoy tea as a drink why "muck about" the world of
deep symbolism and national pride of a society that made the Tea Ceremony
its national almost religious ritual? Bushido said that even for a samurai
it is better not to know it at all and never particpiate in it rather than
do it in an amateur way. If these people put so much of their soul into
something, why not just let them have it?
You can buy the tea, the wisk, all the things to make both teas they use
for
the ceremony and drink it without ever touching the ritual side, but why
"muck about"? Just because you can do it without your head being chopped
off?

Alex.

You miss the point, Alex- the point being that Michael acts like an expert
about things where he has no real knowledge.

As Alex stated, gong-fu is not a ceremony. Japan's tea ceremony is tied to a
lot of different things- even jazz musicians know that you have to
understand something fully before you can improv on it. Mucking with
something you don't understand won't improve your understanding of why
people do it, how they do it, or the history of doing it.
I am sure that Michael is a nice, well-meaning guy. However, he mixes
naivete and arrogance in a manner that would frighten a sophisticated 9 year
old.


"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Hi and hello,

I've been gleefully reading the "newbie" posts. Welcome aboard, Dave.
Now,
on the little matter of the Japanese (and Chinese) tea "ceremonies,"
I've
got to agree with...I forget whom. Both ceremonies have their fixed
elements, rules, regs, styles, and pretentions. Nonetheless, the age of
getting your head chopped off for not towing -- toeing? -- the line are
most
likely coming to an end. So, it's safe to muck about with the
ceremonies.
When in doubt, make it up. But...do it with style...whatever that means.

On the subject of knowing about tea, therein lies an interesting idea/l.
You
could learn about tea until you're blue in the face, and not get it. You
could drink thousands of gallons of tea and know nothing about it.
Either
way is fine, I think. Why not? But, given my druthers, I'd consider the
latter the better: The tea will teach you all you need to know.

Michael

Alex igy.com9/9/04


I respectfully cannot disagree more.

1. What are the gongfu fixed element, reg, etc? There is nothing ceremonial
about it at all. Comparing gongfu with Japanese ceremony in these terms is
baseless.

I respectfully disagree still more.

Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get my
way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and the
absolute.

2. You can bring pink baloons to the funeral or fart during pledge of
allegiance and still keep your head from being chopped off. So what? Even if
you do not respect the deseased or are against the pledge, why insult the
feelings of people who do?

Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone. I wonder if we aren't suffering from
the snapshot effect. That is, the "ceremonies" as we find them are a slice
out of time. But, in reality -- might I misuse that word? -- both forms were
and are constantly changing. Dynamic changes take place at the fringes, not
in the center. We are the fringe. Dig yourself.

If all you want is to enjoy tea as a drink why "muck about" the world of
deep symbolism and national pride of a society that made the Tea Ceremony
its national almost religious ritual? Bushido said that even for a samurai
it is better not to know it at all and never particpiate in it rather than
do it in an amateur way. If these people put so much of their soul into
something, why not just let them have it?

I wouldn't dream of taking it away. If they really have it, I couldn't take
it away. You use "amateur" in its most narrow sense, I take it.

You can buy the tea, the wisk, all the things to make both teas they use for
the ceremony and drink it without ever touching the ritual side, but why
"muck about"? Just because you can do it without your head being chopped
off?

Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

Just my opinions, Alex. I enjoy your points, and don't really disagree with
them at all; it's all in the way you look at it. In any event, I'm about to
embark on a serious gungfu learning adventure. Less later.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get
my
way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and
the
absolute.

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

There definitely emerging a new school of thinking that agrees with you,
present Administration being a good example. It is a rather good excuse for
not knowing and not wanting to learn. However Confucious himself observed
that it takes knowledge to understand the importance of knowledge, so let us
just wait till you do what you wrote below:

In any event, I'm about to
embark on a serious gungfu learning adventure.

Godspeed.

Alex.

Michael Plant wrote:
Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get
my
way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and
the
absolute.

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

There definitely emerging a new school of thinking that agrees with you,
present Administration being a good example. It is a rather good excuse for
not knowing and not wanting to learn. However Confucious himself observed
that it takes knowledge to understand the importance of knowledge, so let us
just wait till you do what you wrote below:

In any event, I'm about to
embark on a serious gungfu learning adventure.

Godspeed.

Alex.

Alex digy.com9/9/04


Michael Plant wrote:
Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get
my
way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and
the
absolute.

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

I don't think you missed the point at all. It's just a different way to look
at it. In point of fact, Gungfu has a stylized -- one might even say "rigid"
-- set of complex rules and forms, at least in some of its guises. It isn't
necessarily the free wheeling thing it sometimes appears to be. Thus, it can
be compared quite nicely with the Japanese way. When I said I'm about to
embark, I meant that I'm going to learn gungfu from people I personally
respect and who can move easily among the ways without getting bent out of
shape. I hope I'm making sense for you and offending nobody, or at least
nearly nobody.

Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

There definitely emerging a new school of thinking that agrees with you,
present Administration being a good example. It is a rather good excuse for
not knowing and not wanting to learn. However Confucious himself observed
that it takes knowledge to understand the importance of knowledge, so let us
just wait till you do what you wrote below:

Mucking about is just my way of suggesting that sometimes its wonderous just
to sit down and have a cup of tea. I really believe that ultimately -- I use
that word advisedly -- the tea will teach you everything you need to know.

snip

Godspeed.

Likewise, Alex.

Michael

Alex digy.com9/9/04


Michael Plant wrote:
Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get
my
way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and
the
absolute.

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

I don't think you missed the point at all. It's just a different way to look
at it. In point of fact, Gungfu has a stylized -- one might even say "rigid"
-- set of complex rules and forms, at least in some of its guises. It isn't
necessarily the free wheeling thing it sometimes appears to be. Thus, it can
be compared quite nicely with the Japanese way. When I said I'm about to
embark, I meant that I'm going to learn gungfu from people I personally
respect and who can move easily among the ways without getting bent out of
shape. I hope I'm making sense for you and offending nobody, or at least
nearly nobody.

Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

There definitely emerging a new school of thinking that agrees with you,
present Administration being a good example. It is a rather good excuse for
not knowing and not wanting to learn. However Confucious himself observed
that it takes knowledge to understand the importance of knowledge, so let us
just wait till you do what you wrote below:

Mucking about is just my way of suggesting that sometimes its wonderous just
to sit down and have a cup of tea. I really believe that ultimately -- I use
that word advisedly -- the tea will teach you everything you need to know.

snip

Godspeed.

Likewise, Alex.

Michael

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

hey !
leave the french out of this !

: )

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to
one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the
same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

hey !
leave the french out of this !

: )

Noway, Jose. If you ever been in Pars you know why - there is no place on
earth where teashops age that good.

Alex.


""NoWayJosé!"" nowayjosefr_*at*_yahoo.fr wrote in message
...
Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional
methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add
to one's heart desire.
You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is
the same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

hey !
leave the french out of this !

: )

Noway, Jose. If you ever been in Pars you know why - there is no place on
earth where teashops age that good.

I do live in Paris...
and yes... I guess it's easier to find good tea here than in texas !
: )

Noway, Jose. If you ever been in Pars you know why - there is no place on
earth where teashops age that good.

I do live in Paris...
and yes... I guess it's easier to find good tea here than in texas !
: )