You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the end
ask for recept (Fa Piao).
They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change.
Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I
spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I got
back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.


Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of the

Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market
58, North Worker's Stadium,
Chaoyang District, Beijing

The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to
hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou
will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if you
want, closer to the time of your trip.
My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own.
The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea shop
and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets. If
you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan
exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway.
Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a large
can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can.
Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices. Your
Chinese friends can buy it for you.
Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of ytea,
I have never been there.

Alex.



"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Alex igy.com9/10/04


If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea.
But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't believe.

Alex.


Alex,

On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in China.
I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your point
of
view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of
course in a taxi.

Michael

Michael Plant writes:

The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.

That's arguable, I hope.

How so?

I'm going out on a limb here -- far be it from me to tell a good master how
to master -- but I think the ceremony in its simplest aim is to get us out
of ourselves and into the tea. Or maybe I'm all wet here. I don't know.

I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you
admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to
offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of
course.

I trust there are many roads to an outcome. The outcome might look the same,
but the road counts for more. I'd be dishonest if I said I didn't read,
explore, even put myself under the guidance of those I trust teawise, as
long as we're talking. By the way, those I trust teawise are pretty much
proponents of the "the tea will teach you all you need to know" approach.

I'm surprised they say it will teach you *all* you need to know. I'm
curious -- can you ask them what they think of tea ceremony then?

Cheers,

- Joel

Michael Plant writes:

The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.

That's arguable, I hope.

How so?

I'm going out on a limb here -- far be it from me to tell a good master how
to master -- but I think the ceremony in its simplest aim is to get us out
of ourselves and into the tea. Or maybe I'm all wet here. I don't know.

I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you
admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to
offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of
course.

I trust there are many roads to an outcome. The outcome might look the same,
but the road counts for more. I'd be dishonest if I said I didn't read,
explore, even put myself under the guidance of those I trust teawise, as
long as we're talking. By the way, those I trust teawise are pretty much
proponents of the "the tea will teach you all you need to know" approach.

I'm surprised they say it will teach you *all* you need to know. I'm
curious -- can you ask them what they think of tea ceremony then?

Cheers,

- Joel

Joel 9/10/04


Michael Plant writes:

The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.

That's arguable, I hope.

How so?

I'm going out on a limb here -- far be it from me to tell a good master how
to master -- but I think the ceremony in its simplest aim is to get us out
of ourselves and into the tea. Or maybe I'm all wet here. I don't know.

I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
inductive ways of tea?

I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you
admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to
offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of
course.

I trust there are many roads to an outcome. The outcome might look the same,
but the road counts for more. I'd be dishonest if I said I didn't read,
explore, even put myself under the guidance of those I trust teawise, as
long as we're talking. By the way, those I trust teawise are pretty much
proponents of the "the tea will teach you all you need to know" approach.

I'm surprised they say it will teach you *all* you need to know. I'm
curious -- can you ask them what they think of tea ceremony then?

Would you be happier if I removed the "all"? Consider it dismissed. I have
lingering shadowy Wordsworthian memoires of flowers.

Michael

Joel 9/10/04


Michael Plant writes:

The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel
by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.

That's arguable, I hope.

How so?

I'm going out on a limb here -- far be it from me to tell a good master how
to master -- but I think the ceremony in its simplest aim is to get us out
of ourselves and into the tea. Or maybe I'm all wet here. I don't know.

I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
inductive ways of tea?

I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you
admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to
offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of
course.

I trust there are many roads to an outcome. The outcome might look the same,
but the road counts for more. I'd be dishonest if I said I didn't read,
explore, even put myself under the guidance of those I trust teawise, as
long as we're talking. By the way, those I trust teawise are pretty much
proponents of the "the tea will teach you all you need to know" approach.

I'm surprised they say it will teach you *all* you need to know. I'm
curious -- can you ask them what they think of tea ceremony then?

Would you be happier if I removed the "all"? Consider it dismissed. I have
lingering shadowy Wordsworthian memoires of flowers.

Michael

Thanks, Alex. We'll talk more for sure. How many days do I get out of my
guide-translater for my 50 smackaroos?

Michael



Alex digy.com9/10/04


You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the end
ask for recept (Fa Piao).
They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change.
Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I
spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I got
back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.


Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of the

Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market
58, North Worker's Stadium,
Chaoyang District, Beijing

The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to
hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou
will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if you
want, closer to the time of your trip.
My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own.
The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea shop
and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets. If
you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan
exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway.
Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a large
can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can.
Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices. Your
Chinese friends can buy it for you.
Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of ytea,
I have never been there.

Alex.



"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Alex igy.com9/10/04


If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea.
But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't believe.

Alex.


Alex,

On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in China.
I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your point
of
view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of
course in a taxi.

Michael

Michael Plant writes:

Joel 9/10/04


I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
inductive ways of tea?

This is going to get me into trouble.

If I've understood your use of those words correctly, you regard the
ceremony as inductive and `your way' (no sarcasm intended) as
deductive.

Now here's the origin of everything I've said so far: I don't believe
there's any such thing as deduction ex nihilo. Everything is,
necessarily, `bootstrapped' inductively.

Of course, we could be disagreeing about the induction/deduction
attribution, which might make life interesting.

Cheers,

- Joel

Michael Plant writes:

Joel 9/10/04


I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
inductive ways of tea?

This is going to get me into trouble.

If I've understood your use of those words correctly, you regard the
ceremony as inductive and `your way' (no sarcasm intended) as
deductive.

Now here's the origin of everything I've said so far: I don't believe
there's any such thing as deduction ex nihilo. Everything is,
necessarily, `bootstrapped' inductively.

Of course, we could be disagreeing about the induction/deduction
attribution, which might make life interesting.

Cheers,

- Joel

Joel 9/10/04


Michael Plant writes:

Joel 9/10/04


I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
inductive ways of tea?

This is going to get me into trouble.

If I've understood your use of those words correctly, you regard the
ceremony as inductive and `your way' (no sarcasm intended) as
deductive.

Yes.

Now here's the origin of everything I've said so far: I don't believe
there's any such thing as deduction ex nihilo. Everything is,
necessarily, `bootstrapped' inductively.

Works both ways at once. And -- no sarcasm intended here either -- therein
lies the cosmic joke.

Ex nihilo? I'm going to reread my Dostoyevsky.

Of course, we could be disagreeing about the induction/deduction
attribution, which might make life interesting.

Attribution. Good word.

Michael

Joel 9/10/04


Michael Plant writes:

Joel 9/10/04


I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of
ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what
you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what
to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide
posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and
inductive ways of tea?

This is going to get me into trouble.

If I've understood your use of those words correctly, you regard the
ceremony as inductive and `your way' (no sarcasm intended) as
deductive.

Yes.

Now here's the origin of everything I've said so far: I don't believe
there's any such thing as deduction ex nihilo. Everything is,
necessarily, `bootstrapped' inductively.

Works both ways at once. And -- no sarcasm intended here either -- therein
lies the cosmic joke.

Ex nihilo? I'm going to reread my Dostoyevsky.

Of course, we could be disagreeing about the induction/deduction
attribution, which might make life interesting.

Attribution. Good word.

Michael

Uno. This is 2003, not 1912

Alex.

"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Alex. We'll talk more for sure. How many days do I get out of my
guide-translater for my 50 smackaroos?

Michael



Alex digy.com9/10/04


You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the
end
ask for recept (Fa Piao).
They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change.
Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I
spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I
got
back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.


Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of
the

Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market
58, North Worker's Stadium,
Chaoyang District, Beijing

The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to
hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou
will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if
you
want, closer to the time of your trip.
My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own.
The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea
shop
and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets.
If
you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan
exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway.
Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a
large
can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can.
Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices.
Your
Chinese friends can buy it for you.
Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of
ytea,
I have never been there.

Alex.



"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Alex igy.com9/10/04


If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea.
But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't
believe.

Alex.


Alex,

On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in
China.
I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your
point
of
view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of
course in a taxi.

Michael

Ex nihilo? I'm going to reread my Dostoyevsky.

Michael

Would you %$#^ing leave Fyodor Michailovitch out of this?

Alex.

Alex igy.com9/10/04



Ex nihilo? I'm going to reread my Dostoyevsky.
Michael

Would you %$#^ing leave Fyodor Michailovitch out of this?
Alex.

Where's Prince Mishkin when you needs him?
Michael

Alex igy.com9/10/04



Ex nihilo? I'm going to reread my Dostoyevsky.
Michael

Would you %$#^ing leave Fyodor Michailovitch out of this?
Alex.

Where's Prince Mishkin when you needs him?
Michael

Please count me in on the thread too if it goes offline as I will also
need a translator next year...

Mike


On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:17:21 GMT, Michael Plant
cast caution to the wind and posted:

Thanks, Alex. We'll talk more for sure. How many days do I get out of my
guide-translater for my 50 smackaroos?

Michael



Alex digy.com9/10/04


You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the end
ask for recept (Fa Piao).
They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change.
Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I
spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I got
back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.


Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of the

Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market
58, North Worker's Stadium,
Chaoyang District, Beijing

The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to
hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou
will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if you
want, closer to the time of your trip.
My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own.
The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea shop
and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets. If
you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan
exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway.
Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a large
can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can.
Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices. Your
Chinese friends can buy it for you.
Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of ytea,
I have never been there.

Alex.



"Michael Plant" wrote in message
...
Alex igy.com9/10/04


If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea.
But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't believe.

Alex.


Alex,

On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in China.
I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your point
of
view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of
course in a taxi.

Michael





Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply