I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
special invention for or by the Europeans? Was it red tea at all that
the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?

Thanks for any answers,
Gyorgy

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com...
I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
special invention for or by the Europeans? Was it red tea at all that
the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?

Thanks for any answers,
Gyorgy

My understanding of red tea was that it was created in Africa, I think
southern Africa, and it was called Rooibos meaning red bush. But I
could be wrong. Maybe that's why they don't drink red tea. Plus it's
not really a tea since it doesnt come from the tea plant.

(Mike Thadman) wrote in message . com...
(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com...
I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
special invention for or by the Europeans? Was it red tea at all that
the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?

Thanks for any answers,
Gyorgy

My understanding of red tea was that it was created in Africa, I think
southern Africa, and it was called Rooibos meaning red bush. But I
could be wrong. Maybe that's why they don't drink red tea. Plus it's
not really a tea since it doesnt come from the tea plant.

I was actually talking about the tea which the Chinese call red tea,
and which is called black tea in the West.

I am very puzzled by the fact that albeit people in China do not drink
red tea, they do produce and export a lot of it for the West. Who and
why invented the red tea in China, and when did it happen? Was it a
special invention for or by the Europeans?

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!

Was it red tea at all that
the first Dutch ships carried to Europe - or was it the tea the
Chinese used to drink, for example some kind of oolong?

I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

(bruce) wrote in message . com...

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!


I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

(bruce) wrote in message . com...

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!


I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.

Jim

(Gyorgy Sajo) wrote in message . com...
(bruce) wrote in message . com...

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!


I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.

It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
importing the beverage around 1650.

--
Derek

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.

It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
importing the beverage around 1650.

--
Derek

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!


I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
styles of tea?

Black/Red tea is roughly 100 years old and was a sort of happy
accident, it was not invented with anyone in mind. The story of
modern day Keemun is that of an accidental change in the processing of
green Keemun. Green tea has a much longer history in China than
Black/Red and must be more wrapped up in their traditions and culture.
The Book of Tea talks about which types of tea are favored in asia
and why, it's a very interesting book, highly reccomeded!


I think the first tea Europeans drank was green but when given the
choice the European culture with it's different taste preferences must
have been really taken with Red/Black tea. Then in the ninteenth
century when India really took off as a tea growing region the
Europeans were able to process tea however they wanted, (the
processing of tea had been unknown to the Europeans for a long time)
black tea was their main choice.

Thank you for the answer. Now I have checked the matter in John C.
Evan's excellent book, "Tea in China: The History of China's National
Drink", and it looks like black/red tea has been around at least in
the past five hundred years. According this source, black/red tea was
developed sometime during the Ming Dinasty (1368-1644), explicitly for
export purposes. It was the same time when the use of tea bricks was
replaced by loose tea as we know it today. Loose tea compared to brick
tea traveled badly and was easily spoiled. Ming teamen developed the
process of fermenting the leaves, thus producing a more robust and
rot-proof tea that they called red tea. This tea was only ment to be
exported to the "barbarian lands", like Manchuria, the Chinese
themself disdained black tea.

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Gyorgy

Wow, great info! Thanks for correcting me. I always thought red tea
was a much more recent invention and I never knew it was only invented
for foriegners. What dates does that book attribute to the other
styles of tea?

Derek wrote in message ...
Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.

It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
importing the beverage around 1650.

You are right about the Dutch being the first to import tea to Europe,
and that in pre-Manchu China they possibly did not experience the
habit of drinking black tea with milk. However, according to my source
(Evans' book), some fifty years later they were the first to introduce
it to Europe:

"Manchu-style milk-tea had astounding repercussions; in fact, it
became the most popular tea outside of China. (...) Following the
publication of a descripition of the Dutch Embassy of Captain Moor
Mautzuiker, Peter de Goyer, and Jacob de Keyser to China on August 8,
1656, which spoke of adding milk to tea, the novel Melkthee [English:
milk tea] appeared at fairs in Holland and Friesland. From there it
gained the rest of Europe."

Derek wrote in message ...
Gyorgy Sajo rose quietly and spake the following:

In 1644 the Manchus came to power in China. They preferred to drink
black tea with milk, and this habit spred quickly to Europe, together
with the first shipments of tea. From the above follows that the
Europeans most probably received black/red tea from China.

Except, the Dutch started importing tea almost 50 years earlier.

It's more likely that this habit spread quickly to England, which started
importing the beverage around 1650.

You are right about the Dutch being the first to import tea to Europe,
and that in pre-Manchu China they possibly did not experience the
habit of drinking black tea with milk. However, according to my source
(Evans' book), some fifty years later they were the first to introduce
it to Europe:

"Manchu-style milk-tea had astounding repercussions; in fact, it
became the most popular tea outside of China. (...) Following the
publication of a descripition of the Dutch Embassy of Captain Moor
Mautzuiker, Peter de Goyer, and Jacob de Keyser to China on August 8,
1656, which spoke of adding milk to tea, the novel Melkthee [English:
milk tea] appeared at fairs in Holland and Friesland. From there it
gained the rest of Europe."

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message m...
Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.

Jim


Great info, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you about your sources? I
am not mistrustful, but I have not yet found a good and detailed book
about the history of the tea in Europe. I could not find any detailed
information about which kind of teas were imported to Europe since
1610 and in the following two centuries.

Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600.

Does it apply to semifermented teas like oolong, too? I would love to
know, where and when those teas first appeared in China.

BTW it is interesting, that while you can read a lot about the history
of green tea in China, there are scarce informations - if any - about
the origins and the history of oolong, black/red and puerh teas.

Thank you,
Gyorgy

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message m...
Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600. The
Portuguese in the late 1500's in China describe it as a 'chaw'
ingested orally and not infused. Black tea was used in 1600's to
survive 18 month sea trips. A 1660 newspaper advertisement describes
it a leaf with humidity removed by drying in the shade and stored in
iron skillets. The English terms Bohea for black tea and Hyson
meaning green tea was used by 1700. When black tea drinking became
popular in Europe it became popular in China. By the 1860's and
Clipper ships voyage of 100 days oolong is brought to England.

Jim


Great info, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you about your sources? I
am not mistrustful, but I have not yet found a good and detailed book
about the history of the tea in Europe. I could not find any detailed
information about which kind of teas were imported to Europe since
1610 and in the following two centuries.

Tea fermentation methods were established in China by 1600.

Does it apply to semifermented teas like oolong, too? I would love to
know, where and when those teas first appeared in China.

BTW it is interesting, that while you can read a lot about the history
of green tea in China, there are scarce informations - if any - about
the origins and the history of oolong, black/red and puerh teas.

Thank you,
Gyorgy