Mike Petro wrote:

major snip

You discounted the "dictionary" quotes. I agree that maybe those
definitions were a little broad in relation to this newsgroup's
expectations, we are a persnickety bunch. However my statement still
stands - you must decide what exactly is your definition of tea? I
cant judge that something is "not" tea if I don't what the definition
of tea really is. Puerh satisfies all commonly accepted definitions
that I know of. What is your definition?

How's this:

Leaves of the Camellia Sinensis that have been picked, subjected to a
range of oxidation -- from complete (black), to partial (Oolong), to not
at all (white and green) -- and then dried or fired prevent further
oxidation and deterioration.


You quoted my website where I say that puerh is unique and a living
thing. It is, so what, that doesn't mean its not tea. Red, white,
yellow etc all have slightly different processing methods and are all
unique. Are you saying that being "microbiologically dead" is a
requirement for tea?

I would say that tea should display qualities typical of agricultural
products: Freshness that diminishes with age and deteriorates with
exposure to moisture, light, and air.

If so, I have never heard of that requirement
before? Just come down south and analyze the sweet iced tea served in
most restaurants here, it is often full of beasties, but its still
tea.

The liquid beverage, perhaps. But certainly not the dried tea leaves
from which it is made.


For thousands of years puerh has been acknowledged by the Chinese as a
tea. The Chinese have not chosen to call it something other than Cha
and I think they know best, why should we be different?

This doesn't make an impression on me. The Japanese call infusions of
dried barley "mugi-cha", and infusions of salted konbu kelp
"konbu-cha". Do the Chinese use "cha" exclusively for Camellia
Sinensis?

--crymad

I meant to ask you again to elaborate a bit on the making of Puerh.
Once again, the steps you detail in its production:

1. The leaves are picked by hand, often from very old trees.
2. The leaves are then sorted and any inferior leaves are removed. For
example leaves that are broken, started to whither, or have signs of
excessive oxidation.
3. Heat is now used to stop the natural oxidation, this is usually done
on a hot metal surface
4. The leaves are now rolled to break them up a little bit, although
this step is sometimes omitted
5. The leaves are now withered either by sun or heat until roughly 90%
of the moisture has been removed. Sun dried leaves are considered the
best.
6. The tea is now sorted into 10 different grades, sometimes there a few
special grades in addition to the basic 10.
7. The leaves are now steamed and compressed into a variety of shapes.
8. The cakes are then stored in a dry environment to encourage slow
oxidation. This is called "Dry Storage" and the puerh that is stored
this way is referred to as Dry Storage Puerh.

Is it conceivable that Puerh can be made using tea from the previous
year's harvest? Or perhaps made using tea that was originally a
finished product; that is, unsold green tea that was intended to be
drunk as-is?

--crymad

I meant to ask you again to elaborate a bit on the making of Puerh.
Once again, the steps you detail in its production:

1. The leaves are picked by hand, often from very old trees.
2. The leaves are then sorted and any inferior leaves are removed. For
example leaves that are broken, started to whither, or have signs of
excessive oxidation.
3. Heat is now used to stop the natural oxidation, this is usually done
on a hot metal surface
4. The leaves are now rolled to break them up a little bit, although
this step is sometimes omitted
5. The leaves are now withered either by sun or heat until roughly 90%
of the moisture has been removed. Sun dried leaves are considered the
best.
6. The tea is now sorted into 10 different grades, sometimes there a few
special grades in addition to the basic 10.
7. The leaves are now steamed and compressed into a variety of shapes.
8. The cakes are then stored in a dry environment to encourage slow
oxidation. This is called "Dry Storage" and the puerh that is stored
this way is referred to as Dry Storage Puerh.

Is it conceivable that Puerh can be made using tea from the previous
year's harvest? Or perhaps made using tea that was originally a
finished product; that is, unsold green tea that was intended to be
drunk as-is?

--crymad

Is it conceivable that Puerh can be made using tea from the previous
year's harvest? Or perhaps made using tea that was originally a
finished product; that is, unsold green tea that was intended to be
drunk as-is?


I have NEVER heard of turning left over unsold tea into puerh.

I have seen a certain amount of time elapse from the time the tea was
picked before the tea was processed into puer. I was talking to my
Chinese mentor via video conference and he showed me some dried green
leaf that he was considering to make into puer. The leaves had
obviously been dried, they were very long and flat, it was obvious
that they had been processed (maybe pre-processed) but the leaves
looked unlike any processed tea I had ever seen. He said he was
evaluating the tea leaves for incorporation into his next set of
custom cakes. He said he would pick several varieties of leaves and
once he selected the proper blend he would send them to a factory to
be produced according to his specifications. I have no idea how old
these dried leaves were, I got the impression that they had been
recently harvested. After seeing leaves in this state it is
conceivable that leaves could be from last years crop and made into
puer this year. I have no idea how long leaves can be stored in this
state. I have seen cakes advertised that claimed to have been
processed into puer in 2004 from 2003 crops.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Is it conceivable that Puerh can be made using tea from the previous
year's harvest? Or perhaps made using tea that was originally a
finished product; that is, unsold green tea that was intended to be
drunk as-is?


I have NEVER heard of turning left over unsold tea into puerh.

I have seen a certain amount of time elapse from the time the tea was
picked before the tea was processed into puer. I was talking to my
Chinese mentor via video conference and he showed me some dried green
leaf that he was considering to make into puer. The leaves had
obviously been dried, they were very long and flat, it was obvious
that they had been processed (maybe pre-processed) but the leaves
looked unlike any processed tea I had ever seen. He said he was
evaluating the tea leaves for incorporation into his next set of
custom cakes. He said he would pick several varieties of leaves and
once he selected the proper blend he would send them to a factory to
be produced according to his specifications. I have no idea how old
these dried leaves were, I got the impression that they had been
recently harvested. After seeing leaves in this state it is
conceivable that leaves could be from last years crop and made into
puer this year. I have no idea how long leaves can be stored in this
state. I have seen cakes advertised that claimed to have been
processed into puer in 2004 from 2003 crops.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

You discounted the "dictionary" quotes. I agree that maybe those
definitions were a little broad in relation to this newsgroup's
expectations, we are a persnickety bunch. However my statement still
stands - you must decide what exactly is your definition of tea? I
cant judge that something is "not" tea if I don't what the definition
of tea really is. Puerh satisfies all commonly accepted definitions
that I know of. What is your definition?

How's this:

Leaves of the Camellia Sinensis that have been picked, subjected to a
range of oxidation -- from complete (black), to partial (Oolong), to not
at all (white and green) -- and then dried or fired prevent further
oxidation and deterioration.

It seems to me that you are attempting to redefine tea to represent a
meaning of your own personal preference. The Chinese people have
called Puerh "TEA" for thousands of years, it seems to me that it
would be kind of arrogant for Westerners to come in now and redefine
it. After all it is a product of their culture, not ours!

I think we are going to have to agree - to disagree - on this one....



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

You discounted the "dictionary" quotes. I agree that maybe those
definitions were a little broad in relation to this newsgroup's
expectations, we are a persnickety bunch. However my statement still
stands - you must decide what exactly is your definition of tea? I
cant judge that something is "not" tea if I don't what the definition
of tea really is. Puerh satisfies all commonly accepted definitions
that I know of. What is your definition?

How's this:

Leaves of the Camellia Sinensis that have been picked, subjected to a
range of oxidation -- from complete (black), to partial (Oolong), to not
at all (white and green) -- and then dried or fired prevent further
oxidation and deterioration.

It seems to me that you are attempting to redefine tea to represent a
meaning of your own personal preference. The Chinese people have
called Puerh "TEA" for thousands of years, it seems to me that it
would be kind of arrogant for Westerners to come in now and redefine
it. After all it is a product of their culture, not ours!

I think we are going to have to agree - to disagree - on this one....



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Again, Mike -

IMHO, there is nothing wrong IN PRINCIPLE about turning older leaves into
puerh IF ONE GETS GOOD RESULTS.
If one will be so crafty, artful and smart enough as to turn old, used
leaves that were steeped many times into a puerh that will blow people minds
(in a good way) - why not?? I guess we should call it Old Whore Puerh and
just love it!
As long as I love it, who cares? Remember that droppings of some insectes
that are cultivated on puerh are called Poo-poo puerh. I6ts about $1,000/lb
and some people worship it.

Alex.



"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...

Is it conceivable that Puerh can be made using tea from the previous
year's harvest? Or perhaps made using tea that was originally a
finished product; that is, unsold green tea that was intended to be
drunk as-is?


I have NEVER heard of turning left over unsold tea into puerh.

I have seen a certain amount of time elapse from the time the tea was
picked before the tea was processed into puer. I was talking to my
Chinese mentor via video conference and he showed me some dried green
leaf that he was considering to make into puer. The leaves had
obviously been dried, they were very long and flat, it was obvious
that they had been processed (maybe pre-processed) but the leaves
looked unlike any processed tea I had ever seen. He said he was
evaluating the tea leaves for incorporation into his next set of
custom cakes. He said he would pick several varieties of leaves and
once he selected the proper blend he would send them to a factory to
be produced according to his specifications. I have no idea how old
these dried leaves were, I got the impression that they had been
recently harvested. After seeing leaves in this state it is
conceivable that leaves could be from last years crop and made into
puer this year. I have no idea how long leaves can be stored in this
state. I have seen cakes advertised that claimed to have been
processed into puer in 2004 from 2003 crops.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Again, Mike -

IMHO, there is nothing wrong IN PRINCIPLE about turning older leaves into
puerh IF ONE GETS GOOD RESULTS.
If one will be so crafty, artful and smart enough as to turn old, used
leaves that were steeped many times into a puerh that will blow people minds
(in a good way) - why not?? I guess we should call it Old Whore Puerh and
just love it!
As long as I love it, who cares? Remember that droppings of some insectes
that are cultivated on puerh are called Poo-poo puerh. I6ts about $1,000/lb
and some people worship it.

Alex.



"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...

Is it conceivable that Puerh can be made using tea from the previous
year's harvest? Or perhaps made using tea that was originally a
finished product; that is, unsold green tea that was intended to be
drunk as-is?


I have NEVER heard of turning left over unsold tea into puerh.

I have seen a certain amount of time elapse from the time the tea was
picked before the tea was processed into puer. I was talking to my
Chinese mentor via video conference and he showed me some dried green
leaf that he was considering to make into puer. The leaves had
obviously been dried, they were very long and flat, it was obvious
that they had been processed (maybe pre-processed) but the leaves
looked unlike any processed tea I had ever seen. He said he was
evaluating the tea leaves for incorporation into his next set of
custom cakes. He said he would pick several varieties of leaves and
once he selected the proper blend he would send them to a factory to
be produced according to his specifications. I have no idea how old
these dried leaves were, I got the impression that they had been
recently harvested. After seeing leaves in this state it is
conceivable that leaves could be from last years crop and made into
puer this year. I have no idea how long leaves can be stored in this
state. I have seen cakes advertised that claimed to have been
processed into puer in 2004 from 2003 crops.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

As long as I love it, who cares? Remember that droppings of some insectes
that are cultivated on puerh are called Poo-poo puerh. I6ts about $1,000/lb
and some people worship it.

For an interesting picture of Poo Poo Puer check out
http://www.teahub.com/jingchang.htm and look for the picture that
refers to Long Zhu. This is actually a natural, not cultivated, string
of insect excrement AKA Poo Poo Puer. I do have it on good authority
though that this insect excrement is cultivated now and available for
much less that $1000. See http://www.pu-erh.net/review-poopoopuer.html
for my personal review of Poo Poo puer and see
http://www.pu-erh.net/poopoopuerh.html for a much more detailed
description.


Now, is THIS tea, or just moth s**t?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

As long as I love it, who cares? Remember that droppings of some insectes
that are cultivated on puerh are called Poo-poo puerh. I6ts about $1,000/lb
and some people worship it.

For an interesting picture of Poo Poo Puer check out
http://www.teahub.com/jingchang.htm and look for the picture that
refers to Long Zhu. This is actually a natural, not cultivated, string
of insect excrement AKA Poo Poo Puer. I do have it on good authority
though that this insect excrement is cultivated now and available for
much less that $1000. See http://www.pu-erh.net/review-poopoopuer.html
for my personal review of Poo Poo puer and see
http://www.pu-erh.net/poopoopuerh.html for a much more detailed
description.


Now, is THIS tea, or just moth s**t?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

In Russia there is a very popular remedy that is harvested in the Tuva area
ajasent to Mongolia and is called "mumie". This is harvested from the
crevasses of rocks in high deserts. It looks like black tar and is used for
tissue and bone regeneration, among other things. It is also found in Egypt
and was described in many Arab medicinal texts of the early middle ages.
When I worked there as a geologist we would gather it during field work and
sell back home. That would at least triple our salaries.
I know it works because my wifes late grandmother broke her hip when she was
80 and after taking mumie her hip got healed faster than if she was 20 years
old. Recently is also helped my friends daugher who has very complex knee
surgery. But it is not 100% safe, because if a person has undiscovered
cancer, mumuie can accelerate its growth.
This mumie is actually fermented excrements of a small mouse that lives in
teh rock crevasses and is known to be complete vegetarian. It also has a
funny custom to releave itself in teh same location over its lifetime. I
still have about 100g of it in my fridge here in the US twenty years later.
So poo-poo puerh is not THAT unusual.

Alex.

"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
As long as I love it, who cares? Remember that droppings of some insectes
that are cultivated on puerh are called Poo-poo puerh. I6ts about
$1,000/lb
and some people worship it.

For an interesting picture of Poo Poo Puer check out
http://www.teahub.com/jingchang.htm and look for the picture that
refers to Long Zhu. This is actually a natural, not cultivated, string
of insect excrement AKA Poo Poo Puer. I do have it on good authority
though that this insect excrement is cultivated now and available for
much less that $1000. See http://www.pu-erh.net/review-poopoopuer.html
for my personal review of Poo Poo puer and see
http://www.pu-erh.net/poopoopuerh.html for a much more detailed
description.


Now, is THIS tea, or just moth s**t?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

In Russia there is a very popular remedy that is harvested in the Tuva area
ajasent to Mongolia and is called "mumie". This is harvested from the
crevasses of rocks in high deserts. It looks like black tar and is used for
tissue and bone regeneration, among other things. It is also found in Egypt
and was described in many Arab medicinal texts of the early middle ages.
When I worked there as a geologist we would gather it during field work and
sell back home. That would at least triple our salaries.
I know it works because my wifes late grandmother broke her hip when she was
80 and after taking mumie her hip got healed faster than if she was 20 years
old. Recently is also helped my friends daugher who has very complex knee
surgery. But it is not 100% safe, because if a person has undiscovered
cancer, mumuie can accelerate its growth.
This mumie is actually fermented excrements of a small mouse that lives in
teh rock crevasses and is known to be complete vegetarian. It also has a
funny custom to releave itself in teh same location over its lifetime. I
still have about 100g of it in my fridge here in the US twenty years later.
So poo-poo puerh is not THAT unusual.

Alex.

"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
As long as I love it, who cares? Remember that droppings of some insectes
that are cultivated on puerh are called Poo-poo puerh. I6ts about
$1,000/lb
and some people worship it.

For an interesting picture of Poo Poo Puer check out
http://www.teahub.com/jingchang.htm and look for the picture that
refers to Long Zhu. This is actually a natural, not cultivated, string
of insect excrement AKA Poo Poo Puer. I do have it on good authority
though that this insect excrement is cultivated now and available for
much less that $1000. See http://www.pu-erh.net/review-poopoopuer.html
for my personal review of Poo Poo puer and see
http://www.pu-erh.net/poopoopuerh.html for a much more detailed
description.


Now, is THIS tea, or just moth s**t?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

Mike Petro wrote:

You discounted the "dictionary" quotes. I agree that maybe those
definitions were a little broad in relation to this newsgroup's
expectations, we are a persnickety bunch. However my statement still
stands - you must decide what exactly is your definition of tea? I
cant judge that something is "not" tea if I don't what the definition
of tea really is. Puerh satisfies all commonly accepted definitions
that I know of. What is your definition?

How's this:

Leaves of the Camellia Sinensis that have been picked, subjected to a
range of oxidation -- from complete (black), to partial (Oolong), to not
at all (white and green) -- and then dried or fired prevent further
oxidation and deterioration.

It seems to me that you are attempting to redefine tea to represent a
meaning of your own personal preference.

This is hardly my own, personal, made-up redefinition. Any primer on
tea will say something along those lines.

The Chinese people have
called Puerh "TEA" for thousands of years, it seems to me that it
would be kind of arrogant for Westerners to come in now and redefine
it. After all it is a product of their culture, not ours!

Cultural relativism plays no part in this discussion. I'm speaking as a
tea drinker, not a member of a particular hemisphere.

I think we are going to have to agree - to disagree - on this one....

Your use of the word "product" above gives hope that we can come to some
mutual agreement. How about we call Puerh "fermented tea product"? All
the Puerh lovers can be happy with the inclusion of the word "tea", and
those detractors with upturned noses like myself can feel smug that the
classification of this substance shares the format of other questionable
foodstuffs such as Velveeta, a "processed cheese food product".

--crymad

Mike Petro wrote:

You discounted the "dictionary" quotes. I agree that maybe those
definitions were a little broad in relation to this newsgroup's
expectations, we are a persnickety bunch. However my statement still
stands - you must decide what exactly is your definition of tea? I
cant judge that something is "not" tea if I don't what the definition
of tea really is. Puerh satisfies all commonly accepted definitions
that I know of. What is your definition?

How's this:

Leaves of the Camellia Sinensis that have been picked, subjected to a
range of oxidation -- from complete (black), to partial (Oolong), to not
at all (white and green) -- and then dried or fired prevent further
oxidation and deterioration.

It seems to me that you are attempting to redefine tea to represent a
meaning of your own personal preference.

This is hardly my own, personal, made-up redefinition. Any primer on
tea will say something along those lines.

The Chinese people have
called Puerh "TEA" for thousands of years, it seems to me that it
would be kind of arrogant for Westerners to come in now and redefine
it. After all it is a product of their culture, not ours!

Cultural relativism plays no part in this discussion. I'm speaking as a
tea drinker, not a member of a particular hemisphere.

I think we are going to have to agree - to disagree - on this one....

Your use of the word "product" above gives hope that we can come to some
mutual agreement. How about we call Puerh "fermented tea product"? All
the Puerh lovers can be happy with the inclusion of the word "tea", and
those detractors with upturned noses like myself can feel smug that the
classification of this substance shares the format of other questionable
foodstuffs such as Velveeta, a "processed cheese food product".

--crymad