It probably would have worked if you left the "RE" off. The newsgroup
readers assume the "RE" is a follow up to an original thread.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:30:34 GMT, "Dog Ma 1"
(reply w/o spam) wrote:

I though the modified header would generate a new thread. How does that
work, anyway?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

I have tasted a lot of very fine Russian Caravan blends that also
contain Lapsabg as a component.

I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
there different base teas available?

Mike



On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:29:33 GMT, "Dog Ma 1"
(reply w/o spam) wrote:

Most of the lapsangs I've tried have been a very lightly fermented base and
a lot of smoke - don't work well for me. I wondered how a smoked strong
Assam might taste, and added a little lapsang to a pot. Wonderful! I do it
all the time now, and if I could figure out how to maintain an even mix with
such different leaf shapes, I'd make a stock of the blen.

-DM



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

OK, trying again to start a new thread...

"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
I have tasted a lot of very fine Russian Caravan blends that also
contain Lapsabg as a component.

Sorry about that cold, Mike. A hot cup of mint tea might clear that
congested nose

I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
there different base teas available?

I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?) Lagavulin, Laphroaig
and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and body. very lightly peated
whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky ones without the body just don't
work for me. In fact, I find that I drink the smoky ones with less than 50%
added water, which makes them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness
and body in balance with smoke.

-DM

Subconsciously I was waiting to jump on the first person to give a
glowing personal testimonial for the embedded businessman. Wait till
somebody gives a book review from you know who. Frankly even if I
remembered your previous efforts it wouldn't have made any difference
in this case. LS turned up in my thermos on Monday when shoveling six
inches of snow the weatherman didn't forecast.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote in message . ..
Hmm, "self appointed Curmudgeon ", interesting choice of titles, I
wont argue.

Look Jim, I think you have taken 1 or 2 posts out of context with
disregard for my other posts over the last couple of years. If you
think that all I have ever contributed is what you stated below then I
sincerely doubt you have read many of my other posts.

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam) writes:

OK, trying again to start a new thread...

"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
[...]
I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
there different base teas available?

I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?)

Yes!

Lagavulin, Laphroaig and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and
body. very lightly peated whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky
ones without the body just don't work for me. In fact, I find that I
drink the smoky ones with less than 50% added water, which makes
them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness and body in
balance with smoke.

I'm certainly no expert on whisky (in fact, I haven't tried the ones
you named), but I find myself not returning to the smoky ones
(e.g. Oban) and preferring those that are relatively smoke-free
(e.g. Dalmore, Macallan Cask Strength.) As for dilution, for me
adding water changes the taste so much that I prefer to drink it
straight in tiny sips. I love the way the vapor fills my mouth and
nose. This works for me even at 68% alcohol (Macallan CS.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Mike 1/27/04


I have tasted a lot of very fine Russian Caravan blends that also
contain Lapsabg as a component.

I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
there different base teas available?

Mike

How a good Lapsang is judged I leave for others. My favorites are the ones
that bring me back to tarry boat peers and the smell of the sea. I just know
what I like in this regard.

Michael

Lewis 1/28/04

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam) writes:

OK, trying again to start a new thread...

"Mike Petro" wrote in message
...
[...]
I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
there different base teas available?

I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?)

Yes!

Lagavulin, Laphroaig and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and
body. very lightly peated whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky
ones without the body just don't work for me. In fact, I find that I
drink the smoky ones with less than 50% added water, which makes
them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness and body in
balance with smoke.

Aha!!** My cupboard contains a 10 year old Laphroaig, and a somewhat older
one which I charge five dollars just to look at. Smokey. Grand. A man's
whiskey. Indeed. Never thought of this comparison either. Well, Lew.....

I'm certainly no expert on whisky (in fact, I haven't tried the ones
you named), but I find myself not returning to the smoky ones
(e.g. Oban) and preferring those that are relatively smoke-free
(e.g. Dalmore, Macallan Cask Strength.) As for dilution, for me
adding water changes the taste so much that I prefer to drink it
straight in tiny sips. I love the way the vapor fills my mouth and
nose. This works for me even at 68% alcohol (Macallan CS.)

Lew, I never knew.
These are the more "honeyed," are they not?
Screw tea. Let's move on.

Home rule for Scotland.

Michael

Mike Petro wrote:
It probably would have worked if you left the "RE" off. The newsgroup
readers assume the "RE" is a follow up to an original thread.

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. If you look around in your
news reader, you'll probably find an option to "view all headers", or
something similar. Two important ones you might see are "Message-ID" and
"References". The message-id is a string that's unique for each message
posted to usenet, and the references are a list of message ids that
preceeded this one in the thread. The references header is how news
readers do threading, not by subject lines.

So changing the subject line in any way won't do it; you need to use
your news reader's "post article" command, instead of "post followup".
Also, some newsreaders let you modify the headers of the post before you
send it, and clearing out the references header will work too.

--David

Lewis 1/28/04


Screw tea. Let's move on.

Good thing this group isn't moderated.

Home rule for Scotland.

Brooklyn, too.


Lew, are you telling me we're *still* ruled from the mainland? Damn.
Drinking Dan Cong and listening to Steeleye Span. Yum.


Michael

*snip*
I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?) Lagavulin, Laphroaig
and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and body. very lightly peated
whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky ones without the body just don't
work for me. In fact, I find that I drink the smoky ones with less than 50%
added water, which makes them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness
and body in balance with smoke.

-DM

Have you tried any of the Highland Park line? They've got a higher
degree of peatiness than any of the non-island whiskies I've found and
more finess IMO than the Islays (or pretty much anything else). Still
though, when it's a blast of smoke I'm looking for Laphroaig CS fills
the bill very nicely. Highland Park for elegance, Talisker for
grandeur, Laphroaig for power.

Cameron

"abl" wrote in message thlink.net...
Hello,

I'm new to this newsgroup and to the world of fine teas in general and have
a few questions. A couple of days ago when I was shopping in my local Asian
supermarket, I stopped by the housewares section and saw two teapots that
looked like they were yixing teapots. They were hidden behind some Japanese
iron teapots but these were clay ones and had Chinese chops on the bottom.
There was a plain one for about $25 and one with a dragon theme design for
$35.

My question is, what are the chances that these are made from real yixing
clay? Are lower quality yixing teapots common enough that they might show
up in an Asian supermarket? If they are made from some other type of clay,
would they retain the tea flavor and become seasoned like a yixing one? I
can't really ask anyone there about them since a) my Chinese isn't good
enough to ask the right questions and b) if you've ever been in an Asian
supermarket, you know customer service isn't their strong suit. Is it worth
it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?

Alan

There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
*gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay). Next, look
at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.

There are many different types of clay used in yixing-ware items and
these clays are often mixed together. The two simple tests above work
for all genuine yixing pots that I have encountered thus far, but may
not work for all clays.

I have never seen a good yixing pot in Chinatown, though your's may be
better than mine. My source of choice nowadays is mandjs.com. I
bought a set of two Zhou Jian Hua pots (around $50) and one by Zhang
Quan Lin (also $50). All three are excellent and quite reasonably
priced. After using the ZQL pot less than a dozen times (and avoiding
any of my more esoteric seasoning methods) it has already acquired a
pronounced tea fragrance. I haven't bought one of his cheap pots yet,
but some look quite good.

Cheers,

Cameron

Cameron 2/9/04


There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
*gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay).

Cameron, my instincts tell me that a lesser clay, fired high, would also
ring thus. Perhaps, we are saying that a lesser clay would not tolerate the
heat required to vitrify the clay to that degree?

Next, look
at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.

I never thought to do that, but I'm going to now -- with trepedation, I
might add. (Anyone here in the market for recently discovered YiXing
forgeries?)

There are many different types of clay used in yixing-ware items and
these clays are often mixed together. The two simple tests above work
for all genuine yixing pots that I have encountered thus far, but may
not work for all clays.

I have never seen a good yixing pot in Chinatown, though your's may be
better than mine.

I have it on good authority that the really good quality gungfu pots once
found in NYC Chinatown supermarkets are no more. Nowadays, you mostly get
what you pay for, it seems.

My source of choice nowadays is mandjs.com. I
bought a set of two Zhou Jian Hua pots (around $50) and one by Zhang
Quan Lin (also $50). All three are excellent and quite reasonably
priced. After using the ZQL pot less than a dozen times (and avoiding
any of my more esoteric seasoning methods) it has already acquired a
pronounced tea fragrance. I haven't bought one of his cheap pots yet,
but some look quite good.

Very encouraging. Thanks muchly. (I'm pondering as we speak.) Thanks too for
the information above.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote in message ...
Cameron 2/9/04


There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
*gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay).

Cameron, my instincts tell me that a lesser clay, fired high, would also
ring thus. Perhaps, we are saying that a lesser clay would not tolerate the
heat required to vitrify the clay to that degree?

*snip*

The ring test is also quite effective at judging relative quality
between actual yixing pots be they zisha, zhuni, duan ni, or whatever
clay. I have a Zhou Jian Hua pot made of zhuni, and a Zhang Quan Lin
pot of mixed brown zisha and some yellow clay (probably duan ni) that
have incredibly high, steely ring tones and make very good tea. You
may be right that a lesser clay can still have a high ring tone, you
seem to have greater knowledge of pottery than me, but I've never seen
a yixing forgery that had a particularly high ring. There are a
number of other tests for yixing, but the two I gave are the easiest
for novices.

Here are some tests of quality for a Yixing pot:

1. Check the fit of the lid. It should fit tightly. When rotated it
should not bind or become loose and rattle, but rotate smoothly. With
the spout pointed at the ground, the lid should not fall out.

2. When pouring (see if you can get the shop owner to let you try it
out with water) you should be able to stop the stream by covering the
vent hole in the lid. As long as the vent hole is blocked, the teapot
should let only a few drops out, at most, even when the spout is
pointing at the ground.

3. With the pot full of water, plug the spout with a fingertip and
invert the pot. The lid should not fall out. I recommend having a
hand or towel ready to catch the lid just in case *grin*.

4. The pot should pour smoothly and with vigour, emptying itself in a
few seconds.

5. When you look at the inside of the pot you can expect to see
some shallow toolmarks running radially out from the center. What you
don't want to see is any gouges or projections in the clay. Lower
quality work often has small fragments of clay that weren't removed
before firing and are now stuck to the walls

6. This is a really qualitative test that takes a bit of experience.
The clay should look "lively" even after being boiled. Good clay has
a natural bright sheen (take a look at "Traditional" by Fan Xiao Long
and "Copy of Drum" by Fan Chen Xia on mandjs to see what I mean).
Even good rough-textured mixed clays will have some of this
liveliness. Low quality clay tends to look quite dull after the
initial boiling to break it in. Apparently some unscrupulous makers
wax their pots to make them appear shiny, this coating disappears
after boiling.

I hope this helps in your search. I consider it small, but I hope
appropriate, thanks for your various informative posts and reviews.

Good Hunting,

Cameron Lewis

Cameron 2/10/04


Michael Plant wrote in message
...
Cameron 2/9/04


There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
*gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay).

Cameron, my instincts tell me that a lesser clay, fired high, would also
ring thus. Perhaps, we are saying that a lesser clay would not tolerate the
heat required to vitrify the clay to that degree?

*snip*

The ring test is also quite effective at judging relative quality
between actual yixing pots be they zisha, zhuni, duan ni, or whatever
clay. I have a Zhou Jian Hua pot made of zhuni, and a Zhang Quan Lin
pot of mixed brown zisha and some yellow clay (probably duan ni) that
have incredibly high, steely ring tones and make very good tea. You
may be right that a lesser clay can still have a high ring tone, you
seem to have greater knowledge of pottery than me, but I've never seen
a yixing forgery that had a particularly high ring. There are a
number of other tests for yixing, but the two I gave are the easiest
for novices.

Here are some tests of quality for a Yixing pot:

1. Check the fit of the lid. It should fit tightly. When rotated it
should not bind or become loose and rattle, but rotate smoothly. With
the spout pointed at the ground, the lid should not fall out.

2. When pouring (see if you can get the shop owner to let you try it
out with water) you should be able to stop the stream by covering the
vent hole in the lid. As long as the vent hole is blocked, the teapot
should let only a few drops out, at most, even when the spout is
pointing at the ground.

3. With the pot full of water, plug the spout with a fingertip and
invert the pot. The lid should not fall out. I recommend having a
hand or towel ready to catch the lid just in case *grin*.

4. The pot should pour smoothly and with vigour, emptying itself in a
few seconds.

5. When you look at the inside of the pot you can expect to see
some shallow toolmarks running radially out from the center. What you
don't want to see is any gouges or projections in the clay. Lower
quality work often has small fragments of clay that weren't removed
before firing and are now stuck to the walls

6. This is a really qualitative test that takes a bit of experience.
The clay should look "lively" even after being boiled. Good clay has
a natural bright sheen (take a look at "Traditional" by Fan Xiao Long
and "Copy of Drum" by Fan Chen Xia on mandjs to see what I mean).
Even good rough-textured mixed clays will have some of this
liveliness. Low quality clay tends to look quite dull after the
initial boiling to break it in. Apparently some unscrupulous makers
wax their pots to make them appear shiny, this coating disappears
after boiling.

I hope this helps in your search. I consider it small, but I hope
appropriate, thanks for your various informative posts and reviews.

Good Hunting,

Cameron Lewis

Yes, it's really helpful, both for new information and review of the known.
I'm realizing more and more that I perhaps got taken by SilkRoadTrade since
their pots fail most of your tests, but still, no flaw in them, with the
exception of one of the pots, is fatal. I'm learning a lot, so it's worth
it. BTW, the pots I got from SRTrade are between 4.5 and 6 ounces, have a
bright brick fire engine red/orange clay with sheen, some of that nasty
nubbing within, and some of the shallow tool marks you mention. A mixed
blessing.

I'm off to look at the pots you mention. What about her "Emperor's Lantern"
and the others made of similar clay? What's your feeling there?

Michael

(Cameron Lewis) wrote in message om...
There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
*gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay). Next, look
at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.

Yixing clay is found throughout the hilly southern area of the Yixing
region of China. Geologists have pinpointed the origins of the clay in
an area comprised of sedimentary lake deposits. Clay contains minerals
which naturally produce a variety of earthy hues across the spectrum,
ranging from a pale golden yellow to a soothing shade of deep purple.
A principal factor in determining the depth of the color is the
concentration of iron in the clay. The temperature used when firing
the clay can create variations in the color as well.

There are different varieties of Yixing clay:

1. Zhu Ni is the rarest of them all. This is because it is known that
Zhu Ni or Vermillion Red clay is limited in quantity. Much of this
type of clay had been excavated in large quantities in the second half
of the 20th century. As a result, it is depleted. It is said that such
teapots would now costs thousands of dollars.

2. Duan Ni (or Banshanlu Ni) is a type of yellowish clay. This type of
teapot is still rather common and can be found in large quantities.
Unlike the Zhu Ni it is not known to have been depleted.

Both Zhu Ni and Duan Ni have countless types of imitations. Many of
them are dyed clay to achieve the vermillion red or yellowish colors.
Some unscrupulous teapots dealers even used ordinary red clay teapots
and pass them off as Zhu Ni teapots.

3. Zisha is the most popular. It is also very common. It has been the
representative colors of clay teapots from China. It also has
imitations in the form of dyed clay. Original Purple clay from Yixing
is said to have the best qualities for making teapots. Zisha clays are
also fairly sandy, so another name for Yixing teapots is "purple sand
teapots."

Yixing clay pottery is a mixture of three soils: the purple soil, the
green soil and the red soil. The three soils are mixed according to
need and the color desired. Then, it is fired at various temperatures
depending on the soil composition. Various firing temperatures and
clay content will create different "ring" and color.