Can anybody point me to information which describes the effect of the
quality of the tea cup on the taste of the tea, and in particular, the
reasons for those different effects across different materials?

(For instace, the difference between drinking from average porcelain
versus fine china.)

Thanks.

Andrew.

Andrew Nesbit wrote:
> Can anybody point me to information which describes the effect of the
> quality of the tea cup on the taste of the tea, and in particular, the

Andrew, I think it will be difficult to quantify the answer to your
question, but I will try.

Frankly, I don't believe there to be much of a difference when looking
at a cost-scale. However, here are things you may want to consider when
purchasing some "teaware" in terms of flavor.

1. How well will it hold in the heat?
2. Will it impart any flavor to the tea?
3. How usable is it?
4. How does it "feel"?

A noet on #4: When drinking wine, a thin crystal glass is appropriate
because it prevents the temperature of the glass from affecting the
temperature of the wine much. I've found also that drinking from a
think crystal wine glass "feels" better than a thick one. Can't
describe it, but its part of the experience. The same may go for tea,
although I haven't found it yet.


Steve

Andrew Nesbit > wrote in message >...
> Can anybody point me to information which describes the effect of the
> quality of the tea cup on the taste of the tea, and in particular, the
> reasons for those different effects across different materials?
>
> (For instace, the difference between drinking from average porcelain
> versus fine china.)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Andrew.

There are three cup variables that I think really affect the taste of
tea:

1. Cup size, where smaller around (1-2oz) is usually better for some
reason. Think gongfu cups.

2. Rim thickness, where a thinner rim seems to make for a more clearly
articulated flavour. I've noticed this effect in wine and spirit
glasses as well.

3. Aesthetics. A really beautiful teacup puts me in a more meditative
mood, increasing my sensitivity to the tea.

I tend to use only porcelain cups, though I will sometimes use glazed
clay for pu-erh. I've never noticed a difference as long as the
design was similar. Also my comments only refer to Chinese-style
cups, not to an English tea service which I don't own.

Cameron

Cameron Lewis wrote:
>
>
> There are three cup variables that I think really affect the taste of
> tea:
>
> 1. Cup size, where smaller around (1-2oz) is usually better for some
> reason. Think gongfu cups.
>
> 2. Rim thickness, where a thinner rim seems to make for a more clearly
> articulated flavour. I've noticed this effect in wine and spirit
> glasses as well.
>
> 3. Aesthetics. A really beautiful teacup puts me in a more meditative
> mood, increasing my sensitivity to the tea.
>
> I tend to use only porcelain cups, though I will sometimes use glazed
> clay for pu-erh. I've never noticed a difference as long as the
> design was similar. Also my comments only refer to Chinese-style
> cups, not to an English tea service which I don't own.

Though I have some nice, thin, handle-less porcelain Japanese tea cups,
I don't use them much, mostly just when serving guests. My tea cup of
choice -- for even gyokuro -- is one of glazed clayware from Hagi. It's
thicker and heavier than the porcelain, but I consider this an
advantage, as it holds the tea's temperature longer. And its handmade
quality feels more comfortable in my hands and on my lips. Beyond that,
though, is the nature of the the clay from which it's made, a very
porous type characteristic of Hagi. The trapped air in the vessel
itself imparts a more open flavor to the tea, as if allowing the liquid
to breathe. By contrast, the same tea in porcelain is a sterile
experience.

--crymad

crymad > writes:

> Cameron Lewis wrote:
> >
> > [...mostly likes porcelain...]
>
> Though I have some nice, thin, handle-less porcelain Japanese tea cups,
> I don't use them much, mostly just when serving guests. My tea cup of
> choice -- for even gyokuro -- is one of glazed clayware from Hagi. It's

------------------------------------------^^^^^^

> thicker and heavier than the porcelain, but I consider this an
> advantage, as it holds the tea's temperature longer. And its handmade
> quality feels more comfortable in my hands and on my lips. Beyond that,
> though, is the nature of the the clay from which it's made, a very
> porous type characteristic of Hagi. The trapped air in the vessel
> itself imparts a more open flavor to the tea, as if allowing the liquid
> to breathe. By contrast, the same tea in porcelain is a sterile
> experience.

How does this work if the Hagi's glazed?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
>
> crymad > writes:
>
> > Cameron Lewis wrote:
> > >
> > > [...mostly likes porcelain...]
> >
> > Though I have some nice, thin, handle-less porcelain Japanese tea cups,
> > I don't use them much, mostly just when serving guests. My tea cup of
> > choice -- for even gyokuro -- is one of glazed clayware from Hagi. It's
>
> ------------------------------------------^^^^^^
>
> > thicker and heavier than the porcelain, but I consider this an
> > advantage, as it holds the tea's temperature longer. And its handmade
> > quality feels more comfortable in my hands and on my lips. Beyond that,
> > though, is the nature of the the clay from which it's made, a very
> > porous type characteristic of Hagi. The trapped air in the vessel
> > itself imparts a more open flavor to the tea, as if allowing the liquid
> > to breathe. By contrast, the same tea in porcelain is a sterile
> > experience.
>
> How does this work if the Hagi's glazed?

The glazing itself is also porous, and crazing is deliberate. Tea will
eventually penetrate the cracks and openings on the surface, which
alters the color of the piece as time goes by. I periodically submerge
my Hagi tea cup in almost boiling water to maintain its well being, and
the effect is effervescent, with a swarm of air bubbles being released
in an audible hiss. You can find a picture of a very beautiful Hagi tea
bowl with a general description of pottery from that area he

http://www.jgc.co.jp/waza/b1_pottery/pottery04.htm

--crymad

Lewis 11/4/03

> crymad > writes:
>
>> Cameron Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>> [...mostly likes porcelain...]
>>
>> Though I have some nice, thin, handle-less porcelain Japanese tea cups,
>> I don't use them much, mostly just when serving guests. My tea cup of
>> choice -- for even gyokuro -- is one of glazed clayware from Hagi. It's
>
> ------------------------------------------^^^^^^
>
>> thicker and heavier than the porcelain, but I consider this an
>> advantage, as it holds the tea's temperature longer. And its handmade
>> quality feels more comfortable in my hands and on my lips. Beyond that,
>> though, is the nature of the the clay from which it's made, a very
>> porous type characteristic of Hagi. The trapped air in the vessel
>> itself imparts a more open flavor to the tea, as if allowing the liquid
>> to breathe. By contrast, the same tea in porcelain is a sterile
>> experience.
>
> How does this work if the Hagi's glazed?
>
> /Lew


If memory serves, and that's all I have right now, Hagi is a very rough
textured and "open" "powder" glaze, not a shiney silicate type glaze. Also,
the openness of the clay itself would still hold air and affect the tea
quality. (Isn't Hagi under heavy Korean influence [maybe 17th C.]? Korean
pots were the best ever made. Hagiware is "homely" in both the American and
the British sense. Unless I'm thinking of someware altogether different.

Michael

11/4/03

>
>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
>>
>> crymad > writes:
>>
>>> Cameron Lewis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...mostly likes porcelain...]
>>>
>>> Though I have some nice, thin, handle-less porcelain Japanese tea cups,
>>> I don't use them much, mostly just when serving guests. My tea cup of
>>> choice -- for even gyokuro -- is one of glazed clayware from Hagi. It's
>>
>> ------------------------------------------^^^^^^
>>
>>> thicker and heavier than the porcelain, but I consider this an
>>> advantage, as it holds the tea's temperature longer. And its handmade
>>> quality feels more comfortable in my hands and on my lips. Beyond that,
>>> though, is the nature of the the clay from which it's made, a very
>>> porous type characteristic of Hagi. The trapped air in the vessel
>>> itself imparts a more open flavor to the tea, as if allowing the liquid
>>> to breathe. By contrast, the same tea in porcelain is a sterile
>>> experience.
>>
>> How does this work if the Hagi's glazed?
>
> The glazing itself is also porous, and crazing is deliberate. Tea will
> eventually penetrate the cracks and openings on the surface, which
> alters the color of the piece as time goes by. I periodically submerge
> my Hagi tea cup in almost boiling water to maintain its well being, and
> the effect is effervescent, with a swarm of air bubbles being released
> in an audible hiss. You can find a picture of a very beautiful Hagi tea
> bowl with a general description of pottery from that area he
>
> http://www.jgc.co.jp/waza/b1_pottery/pottery04.htm
>
> --crymad


Hi,

If I read more, I'd post less. The Hagi bowl in the photos is exquisite. The
crawling at the foot is magnificent. These are bowls that "need" the tea to
complete them: Tea, the missing factor. I recently bought a set of shino
saki cups in the blue and the white styles, for tea of course. Most teawares
are too tight assed, IMHO. Good saki wares are looser and and more natural.
But, that Hagi bowl is extraordinary. Would that I could afford it. And now,
back to the $1.25 behandled mason jar.

Michael

"Andrew Nesbit" > wrote in message

> Can anybody point me to information which describes the effect of the
> quality of the tea cup on the taste of the tea, and in particular, the
> reasons for those different effects across different materials?

The color is very important. That gives you the first impression about the
tea. An unpleasant color always spoils a little your experience and you will
be negatively biased about the smell and taste. Even if it's not conscious.

Cups that are transparent , or clear or white inside allow you to see the
real shade of your drink, or in some cases a modified shade. I have
beautiful Japanese cups with a light blue flower pattern, pouring green tea
in them enhance the pattern, new flowers appear. For Chinese teas with
flowers or leaves floating in the cup, it's better to have transparent
glasses, cups or mugs. Half-transparent china also make beautiful aesthetic
effects.
Dark cups are OK when the color doesn't matter (rarely) or to enhance the
color of milk teas or macha. If the liquid is not good-looking, a decorated
or artistic cup, or even a lid, can distract the attention from its
appearance.

In high and low cups, the colour appears different. It seems much darker in
the former. That can be unpleasant for black teas, that's why European table
services usually have cups lower for tea than for coffee. But for shallow
green teas, on the contrary, they can be more appetising when they look
darker.

To drink, round large cups are more confortable. But narrow cups are better
to smell the fragrance. That's why there are degustation sets with 2 cups, a
long narrow one to smell it, then a lower one to drink it after. Cups shaped
like a ball are a good compromise as the top is narrower and keeps
fragranced vapor inside, and they are not too narrow to drink well.

The thinkness and thermic isolation count as the hands are more sensitive to
heat than the mouth, so the cup needs to be thick enough not to get burnt,
or designed with a handle.
If you brew tea in the cup/mug/bowl, you'll pour hotter water, so heat
resistant ceramics are necessary.

Smaller cups are for degustation teas (served with a glass water, in case
you're thirsty), as those teas are served more concentrated, drunk in the
2-3 minutes after they are served. For teas served as "drinks", you need
bigger cups, that keep the tea hot or cold long enough.
Green teas tend to become bitter or sour if you don't drink them quickly
after serving, and
Chinese tea are often infused several times, that so you need a smaller size
of teapots than for English tea (where you put a tea warmer on a huge teapot
with one brew for several servings).

Kuri (that loves collecting tea cups, pots, etc...but is unfortunately
unable to keep them in one piece a long time)

Michael Plant wrote:

> Hagiware is "homely" in both the American and
> the British sense. Unless I'm thinking of someware altogether different.

This "homely" description has been on my mind since reading your post.
When I visited Hagi, I got into a mild dispute with the sales agent of a
renowned Hagi potter. The agent's contention was that Westerners have
no eye for the plain, unglamorous beauty typified by Hagi pottery.
While I was finally able to get him to agree that with experience, such
sensitivity could be acquired, he was headstrong in his belief that in
their native state, Westerners simply have a collective incapacity for
true appreciation.

Which brings me back to the word "homely", a word that most usually
acts as a euphemism for "ugly". In Japanese, I would describe that tea
bowl as "soboku", suggesting "simplicity, artless, ingenuous", but
tinged with "pathos". Any word in English that approaches this concept?

--crymad

In article >,
crymad > wrote:

> In Japanese, I would describe that tea
> bowl as "soboku", suggesting "simplicity, artless, ingenuous", but
> tinged with "pathos". Any word in English that approaches this concept?

homely?

--
--Chandler --
May Hog be your boatman when you reach the River Styx

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 00:21:30 GMT, Chandler >
tripped the light fantastic, then quipped:

>In article >,
> crymad > wrote:
>
>> In Japanese, I would describe that tea
>> bowl as "soboku", suggesting "simplicity, artless, ingenuous", but
>> tinged with "pathos". Any word in English that approaches this concept?
>
>homely?

Humble, perhaps?

Tee
http://www.geocities.com/tee_king
Remove no-spam to email me.

11/7/03

>
>
> Michael Plant wrote:
>
>> Hagiware is "homely" in both the American and
>> the British sense. Unless I'm thinking of someware altogether different.
>
> This "homely" description has been on my mind since reading your post.
> When I visited Hagi, I got into a mild dispute with the sales agent of a
> renowned Hagi potter. The agent's contention was that Westerners have
> no eye for the plain, unglamorous beauty typified by Hagi pottery.
> While I was finally able to get him to agree that with experience, such
> sensitivity could be acquired, he was headstrong in his belief that in
> their native state, Westerners simply have a collective incapacity for
> true appreciation.
>
> Which brings me back to the word "homely", a word that most usually
> acts as a euphemism for "ugly". In Japanese, I would describe that tea
> bowl as "soboku", suggesting "simplicity, artless, ingenuous", but
> tinged with "pathos". Any word in English that approaches this concept?
>
> --crymad

Yes, I meant "homely" in that way -- as you describe "soboku." It is my
understanding, possibly wrong (correction welcomed) that in England the word
"homely" indicates something comfortable and familiar in an "at home" sort
of a way. I was also thinking of those elements of the bowls, so well
displayed by the one on the page you linked to, that are part of the
"homely" eclipsed beauty of these pieces, but are considered unredeemable
flaws in the West. Includes such elements as crawling -- the glaze balls and
beads up on the clay, and craising (sp), the hairline cracks in the glaze.
And unfortunately, I know no English word and try to refrain from using a
Japanese vocabulary in order to avoid allowing semantics to get in the way.

Hagi and Yi bowls are among the most extraordinary works of "art," if you
will allow that word. They make any argument for a "craft"/"art" dichotomy
laughable, at least in my humble opinion.

BTW, on my recent trip to Spain, I spent a few days in the Prado in Madrid,
mostly to see the Black Paintings of Goya. One was a painting of a dog
looking upward at some object out of the viewer's view. The texture, feel,
and mood of the painting put me in mind of the teabowls (which, BTW) were
orinally manufactured as "rice" bowls; found objects for tea, as it were.

Sorry for length.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:

> Hagi and Yi bowls are among the most extraordinary works of "art," if you
> will allow that word. They make any argument for a "craft"/"art" dichotomy
> laughable, at least in my humble opinion.

Yes, I feel the same. Though, a case could be made that the abundance
of third-rate pottery at craft fairs throughout the nation hinders
appreciation for the ones that are true art.

--crymad

11/11/03

>
>
> Michael Plant wrote:
>
>> Hagi and Yi bowls are among the most extraordinary works of "art," if you
>> will allow that word. They make any argument for a "craft"/"art" dichotomy
>> laughable, at least in my humble opinion.
>
> Yes, I feel the same. Though, a case could be made that the abundance
> of third-rate pottery at craft fairs throughout the nation hinders
> appreciation for the ones that are true art.
>
> --crymad

There is no derth of bad pottery available here for sure, and I'm critical
enough, but most people are blind to the badness of one and the goodness of
the other -- much like me most likely when it comes to painting. I can tell
you what I like and what I don't and why, but I'm sure I miss most of the
nuance.

The bowls, like the tea, make me feel a bit better about the world, at least
for a few moments. That's something worth striving for, me thinks.

Michael

If anybody is interested in history look at the posts between WNW and yours
truly from a couple of years ago about yixing teapots as art or craft. I'm
in an antiques expo a couple of weekends ago and handled the most expensive
teapot in my life. If was an iron Wedgewood from about 1825 with a firm
selling price of 5k. I recently saw my first antique sake serving set and
immediately thought it would be great for gongfu. I don't know how you
would get the leaves out because the lid is so tiny. It would be ideal for
a CTC. I can't remember the last time I saw a sake set for retail.

Jim

"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael Plant wrote:
>
> > Hagi and Yi bowls are among the most extraordinary works of "art," if
you
> > will allow that word. They make any argument for a "craft"/"art"
dichotomy
> > laughable, at least in my humble opinion.
>
> Yes, I feel the same. Though, a case could be made that the abundance
> of third-rate pottery at craft fairs throughout the nation hinders
> appreciation for the ones that are true art.
>
> --crymad