I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain. I am trying to
determine the optimum brewing parameters. I made a couple of pots that
were too strong or too bitter for me. I would like to know which of
the brewing parameters (water term, amount of leaf, steep time) to
change first.

BTW: I have a hard time telling whether the taste that I don't like is
bitterness or too much tea. Can anyone help with this?


The Holy Mountain package only says "use spring water at well below
boiling".

The Holy Mountain website provides minimal assistance. It's about a
2-day project to even find a particular tea. The website is a jumbled,
disorganized mess -- a lot like an unsorted dictionary, just fewer
entries, thankfully. The best I could get is 1-3 minutes, well below
boiling. Zero information about how much leaf to use.



I turned to two websites that are much better organized and generally
have good brewing suggestions.

One is Tea Time: http://www.tea-time.com/.

They recommend brewing their Gyokuro Asahi at 2g/cup (6 oz) for 3
minutes at 176-185F.

http://www.tea-time.com/prodView.asp...duct=95&idCat=

This is not their tea, but those parameters (I used 180F) resulted in
a tea that was either too strong or too bitter for me.



My other source for brewing instructions is Tea Gschwendner (shouldn't
that be Geschwendner?):

http://www.teamerchants.com/Catalog/Default.aspx

They don't have a Gyokuro Asahi. They do have three Gyokuro teas.

http://www.teamerchants.com/Catalog/...chTerm=gyokuro

They all call for 3g/8oz (2.25g/6oz) and 1.5-2 minutes at 140-150F.
That's a little more tea, but a much lower temperature and some
shorter times.


So, what should I vary first? Steep time? Amount of leaf? Or water
temperature?

On Oct 7, 7:22*pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain. I am trying to
determine the optimum brewing parameters. I made a couple of pots that
were too strong or too bitter for me. I would like to know which of
the brewing parameters (water term, amount of leaf, steep time) to
change first.

BTW: I have a hard time telling whether the taste that I don't like is
bitterness or too much tea. Can anyone help with this?

The Holy Mountain package only says "use spring water at well below
boiling".

The Holy Mountain website provides minimal assistance. It's about a
2-day project to even find a particular tea. The website is a jumbled,
disorganized mess -- a lot like an unsorted dictionary, just fewer
entries, thankfully. The best I could get is 1-3 minutes, well below
boiling. Zero information about how much leaf to use.

I turned to two websites that are much better organized and generally
have good brewing suggestions.

One is Tea Time:http://www.tea-time.com/.

They recommend brewing their Gyokuro Asahi at 2g/cup (6 oz) for 3
minutes at 176-185F.

http://www.tea-time.com/prodView.asp...duct=95&idCat=

This is not their tea, but those parameters (I used 180F) resulted in
a tea that was either too strong or too bitter for me.

My other source for brewing instructions is Tea Gschwendner (shouldn't
that be Geschwendner?):

http://www.teamerchants.com/Catalog/Default.aspx

They don't have a Gyokuro Asahi. They do have three Gyokuro teas.

http://www.teamerchants.com/Catalog/...spx?SearchTerm...

They all call for 3g/8oz (2.25g/6oz) and 1.5-2 minutes at 140-150F.
That's a little more tea, but a much lower temperature and some
shorter times.

So, what should I vary first? Steep time? Amount of leaf? Or water
temperature?

Square Peg,

First, the water should definitely be cooler - 140F or so sounds
good. Both of those sites seem to recommend what I think is a fairly
low ratio of leaf to water. Here's the brewing recommendation for
Gyokuro from Hibika-An ( I just ordered some gyokuro from them -
should arrive this week hopefully.) I've found that there is a bigger
dispersion of recommendations for Gyokuro than for other teas. Good
luck in your brewing experiments.

* Gyokuro or Gyokuro Karigane (2 cups)
o Tea leaves: 1 1/2 tablespoons (7 - 8g)
o Water temperatu 140 - 158F (60 - 70C)
o Amount of water: 200cc.
o Waiting time: 2min.
o Gyokuro's best features are its sweetness and mellow
aroma. It is better to brew with low temperature water to enhance the
sweetness and avoid any bitter taste.

http://www.hibiki-an.com/readings/ho...green-tea.html

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:35:16 -0700 (PDT), TokyoB
wrote:

On Oct 7, 7:22*pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain. I am trying to
determine the optimum brewing parameters. I made a couple of pots that
were too strong or too bitter for me. I would like to know which of
the brewing parameters (water term, amount of leaf, steep time) to
change first.

BTW: I have a hard time telling whether the taste that I don't like is
bitterness or too much tea. Can anyone help with this?

The Holy Mountain package only says "use spring water at well below
boiling".

The Holy Mountain website provides minimal assistance. It's about a
2-day project to even find a particular tea. The website is a jumbled,
disorganized mess -- a lot like an unsorted dictionary, just fewer
entries, thankfully. The best I could get is 1-3 minutes, well below
boiling. Zero information about how much leaf to use.

I turned to two websites that are much better organized and generally
have good brewing suggestions.

One is Tea Time:http://www.tea-time.com/.

They recommend brewing their Gyokuro Asahi at 2g/cup (6 oz) for 3
minutes at 176-185F.

http://www.tea-time.com/prodView.asp...duct=95&idCat=

This is not their tea, but those parameters (I used 180F) resulted in
a tea that was either too strong or too bitter for me.

My other source for brewing instructions is Tea Gschwendner (shouldn't
that be Geschwendner?):

http://www.teamerchants.com/Catalog/Default.aspx

They don't have a Gyokuro Asahi. They do have three Gyokuro teas.

http://www.teamerchants.com/Catalog/...spx?SearchTerm...

They all call for 3g/8oz (2.25g/6oz) and 1.5-2 minutes at 140-150F.
That's a little more tea, but a much lower temperature and some
shorter times.

So, what should I vary first? Steep time? Amount of leaf? Or water
temperature?

Square Peg,

First, the water should definitely be cooler - 140F or so sounds
good. Both of those sites seem to recommend what I think is a fairly
low ratio of leaf to water. Here's the brewing recommendation for
Gyokuro from Hibika-An ( I just ordered some gyokuro from them -
should arrive this week hopefully.) I've found that there is a bigger
dispersion of recommendations for Gyokuro than for other teas. Good
luck in your brewing experiments.

* Gyokuro or Gyokuro Karigane (2 cups)
o Tea leaves: 1 1/2 tablespoons (7 - 8g)

Wow. That works out to 6.2-7.1g/6 oz, about triple what I was using.

o Water temperatu 140 - 158F (60 - 70C)
o Amount of water: 200cc.
o Waiting time: 2min.
o Gyokuro's best features are its sweetness and mellow
aroma. It is better to brew with low temperature water to enhance the
sweetness and avoid any bitter taste.

http://www.hibiki-an.com/readings/ho...green-tea.html

Interesting site.

I'll try a pot with a lot more tea and a short steep time.

This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites. The
ones I see in the stores are various Japanese export companies with
various Japanese types. I can get everything from matcha to bancha
and every select grade ever mentioned here. I know one thing both
have in common not cheap. You probably see these brands on the
shelves in Japan. I just havent got around to ordering from the
websites to compare. As far as the Chinese teas what I find on the
shelves is close enough to what I get from the websites so what I am
really paying for is Palins elitism har har.

Jim

PS I did my commoner stump in the mines. It is very relaxing because
you dont have to parse too much.

TokyoB wrote:
On Oct 7, 7:22?pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain.
....I wished someone would give me some better than average tea...
o Gyokuro's best features are its sweetness and mellow
aroma. It is better to brew with low temperature water to enhance the
sweetness and avoid any bitter taste.

http://www.hibiki-an.com/readings/ho...green-tea.html

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
wrote:

This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites. The
ones I see in the stores are various Japanese export companies with
various Japanese types. I can get everything from matcha to bancha
and every select grade ever mentioned here. I know one thing both
have in common not cheap. You probably see these brands on the
shelves in Japan. I just havent got around to ordering from the
websites to compare. As far as the Chinese teas what I find on the
shelves is close enough to what I get from the websites so what I am
really paying for is Palins elitism har har.

Jim

PS I did my commoner stump in the mines. It is very relaxing because
you dont have to parse too much.

TokyoB wrote:
On Oct 7, 7:22?pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain.

...I wished someone would give me some better than average tea...

In my opinion, Holy Mountain is just average. I have had better luck
with Tea Time and Upton.

I was actually given a gift certificate. I bought

Fanciest Jasmine (Moli Huacha), 1/4 pound, $5.00
1st Grade Pu-erh Tuocha "Camel Breath", 1/4 pound, $12.00
Wakamidori Sencha, 1/4 pound, $27.00
Tangerine Fermented Pu-erh, 1, $5.00
Organic Clouds of Green, 1/4 pound, $15.00
1st Grade Gyokuro Asahi (Pearl Dew), 1/4 pound, $22.00
Yin Hao, 1/4 pound, $8.00

I did not like the Moli Huacha at all, but then I probably don't like
jasmine and it was very strong in this tea.

The pu-erh was OK. My first time with pu-erh. I'm probably not a
pu-erh person.

The sencha and the organic clouds of green were the best. I had
trouble getting the right brewing parameters, but this may be just my
inexperience. The HM teas come with little or no instructions, which
probably contributed to me overall dissatisfaction.

The Yin Hao was interesting. There was one pot that was very good. I
thought I recorded the parameters correctly, but I was never able to
replicate it. Most were too strong or bitter.

On Oct 8, 10:30*am, Square Peg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy



wrote:
This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites. *The
ones I see in the stores are various Japanese export companies with
various Japanese types. *I can get everything from matcha to bancha
and every select grade ever mentioned here. *I know one thing both
have in common not cheap. *You probably see these brands on the
shelves in Japan. *I just havent got around to ordering from the
websites to compare. *As far as the Chinese teas what I find on the
shelves is close enough to what I get from the websites so what I am
really paying for is Palins elitism har har.

Jim

PS *I did my commoner stump in the mines. *It is very relaxing because
you dont have to parse too much.

TokyoB wrote:
On Oct 7, 7:22?pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain.
...I wished someone would give me some better than average tea...

In my opinion, Holy Mountain is just average. I have had better luck
with Tea Time and Upton.

I was actually given a gift certificate. I bought

Fanciest Jasmine (Moli Huacha), 1/4 pound, $5.00
1st Grade Pu-erh Tuocha "Camel Breath", 1/4 pound, $12.00
Wakamidori Sencha, 1/4 pound, $27.00
Tangerine Fermented Pu-erh, 1, $5.00
Organic Clouds of Green, 1/4 pound, $15.00
1st Grade Gyokuro Asahi (Pearl Dew), 1/4 pound, $22.00
Yin Hao, 1/4 pound, $8.00

I did not like the Moli Huacha at all, but then I probably don't like
jasmine and it was very strong in this tea.

The pu-erh was OK. My first time with pu-erh. I'm probably not a
pu-erh person.

The sencha and the organic clouds of green were the best. I had
trouble getting the right brewing parameters, but this may be just my
inexperience. The HM teas come with little or no instructions, which
probably contributed to me overall dissatisfaction.

The Yin Hao was interesting. There was one pot that was very good. I
thought I recorded the parameters correctly, but I was never able to
replicate it. Most were too strong or bitter.

At $22 for a 1/4 pound I wouldn't expect much if it is even close to
real Gyokuro at all. I tend to see "Gyokuro Asahi" at all of the low
end coffee roasters who also sell tea. I believe they all buy from
Metropolitan Tea co. (Mlesna) and it is all low to low-mid grade stuff
waaaay overpriced for what it is. I know you are just starting out and
quite eager, but you really should take your time and grow a bit
slower in your pursuit. You will find the answers to your questions
intuitively and naturally rather than this haphazard method currently
being undertaken.

There are no "parameters" to tea and while many of us are scientific
minded tea is one area best to let that go with. Everyone takes their
own journey though, and you are free to brazenly hack through the
jungle to blaze your own path... I just hope to point out that there
is a nice existing pathway steeped in history, tradition, and study
with much nicer views.

FWIW,
- Dominic

On Oct 8, 8:40*am, Space Cowboy wrote:
This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites. *The
ones I see in the stores are various Japanese export companies with
various Japanese types. *I can get everything from matcha to bancha
and every select grade ever mentioned here. *I know one thing both
have in common not cheap. *You probably see these brands on the
shelves in Japan. *I just havent got around to ordering from the
websites to compare. *As far as the Chinese teas what I find on the
shelves is close enough to what I get from the websites so what I am
really paying for is Palins elitism har har.

Jim

PS *I did my commoner stump in the mines. *It is very relaxing because
you dont have to parse too much.

I'd say that if you are buying any Japanese tea that is not of a very
high quality (and unfortunately a high cost) then you are better off
with these pre-packaged exports. They are often cheaper, and well
sealed so they retain some freshness, and most are passable. I have
*never* had one that surprised me and brewed up to a quality Japanese
green though, so don't expect to find a diamond in the rough.
Yamamotoyama actually makes very good teabags which I'd stack up to
most low-mid grade loose greens and I highly enjoy for the "kelpy"
quality of their sencha.

Japanese greens are an anomaly in tea, and as much as it pains me, it
is just too delicate and demanding to treat like other teas in every
part of its life cycle from growth to harvest to store to cup.
Frugality has to take a back seat to explore properly, which is hard
for me too

- Dominic
/I read all of the news doggoneit, dontcha know?

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:37:59 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
wrote:

On Oct 8, 10:30*am, Square Peg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy



wrote:
This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites. *The
ones I see in the stores are various Japanese export companies with
various Japanese types. *I can get everything from matcha to bancha
and every select grade ever mentioned here. *I know one thing both
have in common not cheap. *You probably see these brands on the
shelves in Japan. *I just havent got around to ordering from the
websites to compare. *As far as the Chinese teas what I find on the
shelves is close enough to what I get from the websites so what I am
really paying for is Palins elitism har har.

Jim

PS *I did my commoner stump in the mines. *It is very relaxing because
you dont have to parse too much.

TokyoB wrote:
On Oct 7, 7:22?pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain.
...I wished someone would give me some better than average tea...

In my opinion, Holy Mountain is just average. I have had better luck
with Tea Time and Upton.

I was actually given a gift certificate. I bought

Fanciest Jasmine (Moli Huacha), 1/4 pound, $5.00
1st Grade Pu-erh Tuocha "Camel Breath", 1/4 pound, $12.00
Wakamidori Sencha, 1/4 pound, $27.00
Tangerine Fermented Pu-erh, 1, $5.00
Organic Clouds of Green, 1/4 pound, $15.00
1st Grade Gyokuro Asahi (Pearl Dew), 1/4 pound, $22.00
Yin Hao, 1/4 pound, $8.00

I did not like the Moli Huacha at all, but then I probably don't like
jasmine and it was very strong in this tea.

The pu-erh was OK. My first time with pu-erh. I'm probably not a
pu-erh person.

The sencha and the organic clouds of green were the best. I had
trouble getting the right brewing parameters, but this may be just my
inexperience. The HM teas come with little or no instructions, which
probably contributed to me overall dissatisfaction.

The Yin Hao was interesting. There was one pot that was very good. I
thought I recorded the parameters correctly, but I was never able to
replicate it. Most were too strong or bitter.

At $22 for a 1/4 pound I wouldn't expect much if it is even close to
real Gyokuro at all. I tend to see "Gyokuro Asahi" at all of the low
end coffee roasters who also sell tea. I believe they all buy from
Metropolitan Tea co. (Mlesna) and it is all low to low-mid grade stuff
waaaay overpriced for what it is. I know you are just starting out and
quite eager, but you really should take your time and grow a bit
slower in your pursuit. You will find the answers to your questions
intuitively and naturally rather than this haphazard method currently
being undertaken.

Haphazard? I brew a pot making a careful record of the "parameters". I
then vary one or more "parameters" and compare the results. That, to
me, seems the antithesis of haphazard. Please explain.

There are no "parameters" to tea and while many of us are scientific
minded tea is one area best to let that go with. Everyone takes their
own journey though, and you are free to brazenly hack through the
jungle to blaze your own path... I just hope to point out that there
is a nice existing pathway steeped in history, tradition, and study
with much nicer views.

Hmmm... So everyone takes their own path, but if mine involves
"parameters" (horrors!), then I am brazenly hacking through the
jungle?

Can you explain to me what this "nice existing pathway" is and how I
seem to have fallen off into the jungle? I'm not being sarcastic. If
there is a better way, I'd like to know about it.

But it is hard to hear when my methodical approach is denigrated.

Square Peg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:37:59 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
wrote:
I know you are just starting out and
quite eager, but you really should take your time and grow a bit
slower in your pursuit. You will find the answers to your questions
intuitively and naturally rather than this haphazard method currently
being undertaken.

Haphazard? I brew a pot making a careful record of the "parameters". I
then vary one or more "parameters" and compare the results. That, to
me, seems the antithesis of haphazard. Please explain.

Well, somehow it is haphazard and somehow it is not. You seem to take a
scientific kind of view, you take a sample and scan through the
parameter space and then you 'measure' the result. However there are
two flaws in this procedure. Firstly this procedure is just cold,
technical, which is something i don't want to associate with tea. And
the second point is that you cannot scientifically measure the taste of
tea. It is quite subjective, so the procedure contradicts itself
somewhat.
There is really much more needed for a good tea than just the correct
amount of tea, steeping temperature, ... I mean they are important but
they should not dominate your tea experience. Enjoying tea also
requires the right frame of mind. If you are occupied with something,
if you're focusing too much, if think too much about doing it
correctly, you will never enjoy the tea as much as if you just enjoy.


There are no "parameters" to tea and while many of us are scientific
minded tea is one area best to let that go with. Everyone takes their
own journey though, and you are free to brazenly hack through the
jungle to blaze your own path... I just hope to point out that there
is a nice existing pathway steeped in history, tradition, and study
with much nicer views.

Hmmm... So everyone takes their own path, but if mine involves
"parameters" (horrors!), then I am brazenly hacking through the
jungle?
Can you explain to me what this "nice existing pathway" is and how I
seem to have fallen off into the jungle? I'm not being sarcastic. If
there is a better way, I'd like to know about it.


To me it seems that you are not taking your own path but are hacking
away in all directions and searching for a paved way.
I know this may be not satisfactory, because it is not a clear
procedure, but as Dominic said slow down. Enjoy your tea, enjoy the
preparation of the tea and don't focus too much on the technical side.
To stay with the analogy, look at the jungle, enjoy the view and
eventually you will find a way. Follow it. At some times it may be
necessary to hack a little bit but then you probably know where and
when to hack.

I don't know if this is the pathway Dominic mentioned and i apologize if
i am not of much help or you feel offended. My tea experience is
limited to only three years of stumbling, but that way i managed to get
one or two perfect moments.

Stefan

YinHao is one of my favorites. Make sure it is the YinHao without the
Jasmine flavor. I buy mine in 500g tins. Ive made sure I am stocked
for life. I consider it an honest tea ie you dont have to fuss around
to make it. All the brewing aint going to change the taste very
much. It is spring bud. There is no guarantee it is consistent
through and through. Add more than you think. It goes down heavy.
You may have to dump the first infusion to get something milder. I
like bold lip smaking Chinese greens. I notice if I suck in a leaf it
seems leathery. When Im breaking in a new tea I drink it exclusively
for about a week. I dont like the potpourri approach. It took me
about a decade to appreciate green teas perse versus the readily
available oolongs and blacks ie I had to unlearn some expectations.
Fermented teas like Puer are a special case. There are teas I only
drink on a rainy day or to determine how sick I am.

Jim

PS I wished someone would give me a $100 gift certificate for tea. I
noticed over the years how different green tea looks infused. I
should start a collection like butterflies.

Square Peg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
wrote:
....i bore me not you...
Yin Hao, 1/4 pound, $8.00

I did not like the Moli Huacha at all, but then I probably don't like
jasmine and it was very strong in this tea.

The pu-erh was OK. My first time with pu-erh. I'm probably not a
pu-erh person.

The sencha and the organic clouds of green were the best. I had
trouble getting the right brewing parameters, but this may be just my
inexperience. The HM teas come with little or no instructions, which
probably contributed to me overall dissatisfaction.

The Yin Hao was interesting. There was one pot that was very good. I
thought I recorded the parameters correctly, but I was never able to
replicate it. Most were too strong or bitter.

On Oct 8, 10:01*pm, Square Peg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:37:59 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."



wrote:
On Oct 8, 10:30*am, Square Peg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 05:40:20 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy

wrote:
This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites. *The
ones I see in the stores are various Japanese export companies with
various Japanese types. *I can get everything from matcha to bancha
and every select grade ever mentioned here. *I know one thing both
have in common not cheap. *You probably see these brands on the
shelves in Japan. *I just havent got around to ordering from the
websites to compare. *As far as the Chinese teas what I find on the
shelves is close enough to what I get from the websites so what I am
really paying for is Palins elitism har har.

Jim

PS *I did my commoner stump in the mines. *It is very relaxing because
you dont have to parse too much.

TokyoB wrote:
On Oct 7, 7:22?pm, Square Peg wrote:
I was given a bag of Gyokuro Asahi from Holy Mountain.
...I wished someone would give me some better than average tea...

In my opinion, Holy Mountain is just average. I have had better luck
with Tea Time and Upton.

I was actually given a gift certificate. I bought

Fanciest Jasmine (Moli Huacha), 1/4 pound, $5.00
1st Grade Pu-erh Tuocha "Camel Breath", 1/4 pound, $12.00
Wakamidori Sencha, 1/4 pound, $27.00
Tangerine Fermented Pu-erh, 1, $5.00
Organic Clouds of Green, 1/4 pound, $15.00
1st Grade Gyokuro Asahi (Pearl Dew), 1/4 pound, $22.00
Yin Hao, 1/4 pound, $8.00

I did not like the Moli Huacha at all, but then I probably don't like
jasmine and it was very strong in this tea.

The pu-erh was OK. My first time with pu-erh. I'm probably not a
pu-erh person.

The sencha and the organic clouds of green were the best. I had
trouble getting the right brewing parameters, but this may be just my
inexperience. The HM teas come with little or no instructions, which
probably contributed to me overall dissatisfaction.

The Yin Hao was interesting. There was one pot that was very good. I
thought I recorded the parameters correctly, but I was never able to
replicate it. Most were too strong or bitter.

At $22 for a 1/4 pound I wouldn't expect much if it is even close to
real Gyokuro at all. I tend to see "Gyokuro Asahi" at all of the low
end coffee roasters who also sell tea. I believe they all buy from
Metropolitan Tea co. (Mlesna) and it is all low to low-mid grade stuff
waaaay overpriced for what it is. I know you are just starting out and
quite eager, but you really should take your time and grow a bit
slower in your pursuit. You will find the answers to your questions
intuitively and naturally rather than this haphazard method currently
being undertaken.

Haphazard? I brew a pot making a careful record of the "parameters". I
then vary one or more "parameters" and compare the results. That, to
me, seems the antithesis of haphazard. Please explain.

There are no "parameters" to tea and while many of us are scientific
minded tea is one area best to let that go with. Everyone takes their
own journey though, and you are free to brazenly hack through the
jungle to blaze your own path... I just hope to point out that there
is a nice existing pathway steeped in history, tradition, and study
with much nicer views.

Hmmm... So everyone takes their own path, but if mine involves
"parameters" (horrors!), then I am brazenly hacking through the
jungle?

Can you explain to me what this "nice existing pathway" is and how I
seem to have fallen off into the jungle? I'm not being sarcastic. If
there is a better way, I'd like to know about it.

But it is hard to hear when my methodical approach is denigrated.

I think Stefan did a very good job of offering a similar but different
view which ultimately reaches the same point I was making. Look, I'm
not here to chastise you... we are all here to help. Honestly, even if
it may not be what you want to hear or believe. We can all see your
myriad posts and they all read identically. A new tea, a desire for
scientific approach, a frantic flailing within "parameters," sometimes
an acceptable result sometimes not. There is so much more to tea that
you are sadly missing that we are more interested in helping you find
the real story, the joy, the mindfulness, the history, the farmers,
the process, the tradition... among many other factors. It's actually
painful to me, and I'm sure others, to watch. So naturally we want you
to realize there is more there than meets the eye, and we can see you
have an interest, which are positives and in no way negative as you
may feel.

Tea is not meant to be scientific, in fact many original scholars
speak out against such an approach. When most of us speak of scales,
thermometers, and stop watches it is usually only as a way to quantify
what we do so that it may be more easily shared in an impersonal
medium like Usenet. It is also good every now and then for
establishing a baseline to then work from unscientifically or to check
your work every now and then... but those tools are not a very large
part of most of our experiences 99% of the time - if ever.

There are too many variables to quantify anything with tea and I guess
the part that pains me the most is I guess (and not meant badly) a
foolish view to think anyone could. Again when you go back to history
it was not handled in this manner, and is not meant to. With Puerh
many texts speak of how many "breaths" for steeping times. That is
where you should begin. It makes it personal, it allows the focus and
mindfulness to be on the tea, "the agony of the leaves," and the
process. It also doesn't help that you are wildly swinging between
very different types and regions of tea that all require different
nuance and subtle differences.

This is a long reply, I know, but I feel I am required it after my
initial comments which may have been taken poorly. There is a wealth
of information here in the archives including many folks who do not
post anymore who were very knowledgeable, there are many great people
still here, many years of study and growth and discovery, if you want
to be scientific about anything my suggestion would be to focus it on
R&D and reading and history. It will all result in a better cup of tea
because unscientifically sometimes the best tea is an emotion while
the tea itself is merely passable. I could elaborate more but I'll
pause here for now to read your thoughts.

- Dominic

I consider Yamamotoyama to be the Liptons of Japanese tea. I like the
export grades I find in the stores. Some are so good I wonder how
they stack up against the 'real' thing. My main problem with Japanese
teas Im just too brutal using boiling water. The tea ceremonies
boil. The kyusu has a protracted handle to insulate against hot
water. I think it is more than form. I hate to say it but Ill have
to leave what is good in the stores versus something more direct to
somebody else.


Jim


Dominic T. wrote:
On Oct 8, 8:40?am, Space Cowboy wrote:
This is OT but Id like to know what people think of the export
Japanese teas one sees in the stores versus exclusive websites.
....commercial versus estate...
They are often cheaper, and well
sealed so they retain some freshness, and most are passable. I have
*never* had one that surprised me and brewed up to a quality Japanese
green though, so don't expect to find a diamond in the rough.
Yamamotoyama actually makes very good teabags which I'd stack up to
most low-mid grade loose greens and I highly enjoy for the "kelpy"
quality of their sencha.

Japanese greens are an anomaly in tea, and as much as it pains me, it
is just too delicate and demanding to treat like other teas in every
part of its life cycle from growth to harvest to store to cup.
Frugality has to take a back seat to explore properly, which is hard
for me too

- Dominic
/I read all of the news doggoneit, dontcha know?

On Oct 9, 9:32*am, Space Cowboy wrote:
I consider Yamamotoyama to be the Liptons of Japanese tea. *I like the
export grades I find in the stores. * Some are so good I wonder how
they stack up against the 'real' thing. *My main problem with Japanese
teas Im just too brutal using boiling water. *The tea ceremonies
boil. *The kyusu has a protracted handle to insulate against hot
water. *I think it is more than form. *I hate to say it but Ill have
to leave what is good in the stores versus something more direct to
somebody else.

Jim

Lipton has some good offerings in some of their foreign offerings so
I'd say that's fair Yamamotoyama has a number of teas some are good
some aren't so hot but like I said I'm addicted to their sencha. I do
have to stick to my findings that the real deal is just unapproachable
in flavor and quality, I wish it wasn't so believe me. I treat it like
a special bonus and just bite the bullet at times... it does make it
harder to enjoy though knowing what that single cup cost than even
some of the most expensive teas from elsewhere. As for boiling water
you are correct, but you have to remember tea ceremony calls for
Matcha which does take boiling water. Delicate greens really do suffer
from too much heat.

I doubt it will be news to you but since it is in keeping with this
thread here is a link to Hibiki-An's page on brewing tips/suggestions:
http://www.hibiki-an.com/readings/ho...green-tea.html

I'm not sure what your experience is with matcha but it can be had at
very reasonable prices and is very enjoyable. It's everything you want
in one: cheap, available, and able to take high temps with little
fuss. But even as it goes against my normal views too, I'd suggest
everyone enjoy a true Japanese green freshly in season and brewed
properly. There may be no better tea for me, and it would undoubtedly
change your mind on what the difference truly is.

- Dominic

Square Peg,

I consider myself a beginner like you when it comes to tea. As an
engineer and someone who does math for fun, I at first took the
approach to tea that you are taking. I wanted to classify and measure
and know everything I could. Then I got overwhelmed by the parameters.
I was so concerned with what I "should" do and "should" enjoy that I
felt that tea was more of a chore than a pleasure. Well, not exactly,
but the desire to get it "perfect" was detracting from the enjoyment.
For example, I felt that I simply HAD to like green teas because that
is what everyone seems to rave about. I played around with water temps
and amount of tea and steeping times to get a cup of green tea that I
loved. Now I accept that fact that most greens simply don't do it for
me.

I know that, in my case, I underestimate the amount of knowledge that
comes with experience and instead try to nail it all down from the
start. Now I'm trying to just go with it, try different things, and
develop that skill so that it becomes second nature.

Please consider Stefan's point that taste is subjective. I have found
that many teas that I at first disliked have grown on me. Some of that
comes with experiencing different teas, but a lot has to do with day-
to-day changes in taste. So, you can do all sorts of experiments with
different teas, then find that your taste has changed or that next
year's crop is completely different from this year's.

You're free to do what you want, of course. You came here for advice,
and you're getting it. Take it leave it. Ultimately the proof of the
pudding is in the eating, right?

Alan

"Stefan Schenk" wrote

i am not of much help or you feel offended. My tea experience is
limited to only three years of stumbling, but that way i managed to get
one or two perfect moments.

How revealing story it is!

Incidentally, what teas have given you such perfect moments?
I presume that the teas must have been such that they must be
the ones that taste like tea.

I have been looking for for some time a tea-like tea, in vain,
that is, the tea that tastes like tea.

How do I know about such tea-like tea? I happened to have had
some luck to encounter such, exactly three times,
each time being of different kind of tea, all of which trails
I seem to have lost?