On Jul 25, 11:05*am, Warren wrote:
Will Yardley wrote:
On 2008-07-24, Alan wrote:

I don't think I've agreed more with an RFDT posting in quite a while.
It's also timely; I just read an article in Technology Review which
shows that the average US resident is responsible for 20 metric tons
of CO2 emissions annually. Compare that to 4 metric tons as the
worldwide average (US included). Even a homeless person in the US is
responsible for 8.5 metric tons per year!

I've long been an opponent of bottled water. Much has been written
about the phenomenon, so I won't repeat it here. My objections are
along the lines stated he the environmental cost of shipping heavy
bottles of water around the globe is ludicrous.

soapbox

I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd be willing to get that giving up
meat would have a much greater impact on one's carbon footprint than
giving up bottled water. I am kind of doubting that bottled water
(rather than food production, energy costs, and personal transportation)
plays a huge role in US citizens' carbon footprints.

/soapbox

I do try to use a mixture of filtered water and bottled rather than only
bottled water (and sometimes I'll even just use filtered), but I find
that filtered water is usually either *too* filtered (i.e., doesn't have
enough mineral content to make good tea), or else isn't filtered enough
(off-tastes, flouride, etc.). I think I'm actually more picky about the
water that I use for tea than I am for the water I drink or cook with.

Some folks here have had good luck with re-mineralizing RO-filtered
water.

I grew up drinking tap water (the tap water where I grew up is great),
but the (unfiltered) tap water here in Southern California, while safe
to drink and not anywhere near as bad-tasting as the tap water in, say,
Shanghai, is not very delicious.

w

Perhaps the issue is that bottled water is an *unneeded* addition to the
carbon footprint of our species. That's how I see it. I drink bottled
water on road trips, camping, etc, but never just day to day. I see it
having it's place, but to market it as "green" is just plain misleading
IMHO.

In fact, all of carbon footprint of our species is " unneeded ".
Our species was a species before it had an appreciable
carbon footprint. You might go over co2-producing
activities and argue which ones are more or less
unneeded and which ones are more/less costly:

activity X: unneedness-factor: 0.2; co2 cost: 1cm3 per unit/liter/kilo/
etc
activity Y: unneedness-factor: 0.35; co2 cost: 2.5cm3 per unit/liter/
kilo/etc

By the way I found an explanation for Fiji green drop thingy:

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...rbon-negative/

Anyway, I wouldn't call water unneeded. I can probably
last a few weeks without food, much less cars and
radios, but not more than a couple days without water.
And if I have a choice of foul tasting water and nothing,
I will often choose nothing (of course to a point).

Good tasting water should be counted as one of
basic human rights.. By the way, I'm particularly
sensitive to water taste - I can feel much difference
between tea made with slowly boiled water,
quickly boiled water, boiled with an electric
range, an electric pot. It may be beacause I
almost always avoid spicy, seasoned, salty foods
and strong-tasting drinks. For example, I noticed
that if I drink gongfu-prepared oolongs or pu-erhs,
on the next day my usual brewed whites and
greens taste too bland. Once one more day
passes, my taste readjusts and I can enjoy
whites and greens again. -ak

Rainy wrote:
On Jul 25, 11:05 am, Warren wrote:
Will Yardley wrote:
On 2008-07-24, Alan wrote:
I don't think I've agreed more with an RFDT posting in quite a while.
It's also timely; I just read an article in Technology Review which
shows that the average US resident is responsible for 20 metric tons
of CO2 emissions annually. Compare that to 4 metric tons as the
worldwide average (US included). Even a homeless person in the US is
responsible for 8.5 metric tons per year!
I've long been an opponent of bottled water. Much has been written
about the phenomenon, so I won't repeat it here. My objections are
along the lines stated he the environmental cost of shipping heavy
bottles of water around the globe is ludicrous.
soapbox
I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd be willing to get that giving up
meat would have a much greater impact on one's carbon footprint than
giving up bottled water. I am kind of doubting that bottled water
(rather than food production, energy costs, and personal transportation)
plays a huge role in US citizens' carbon footprints.
/soapbox
I do try to use a mixture of filtered water and bottled rather than only
bottled water (and sometimes I'll even just use filtered), but I find
that filtered water is usually either *too* filtered (i.e., doesn't have
enough mineral content to make good tea), or else isn't filtered enough
(off-tastes, flouride, etc.). I think I'm actually more picky about the
water that I use for tea than I am for the water I drink or cook with.
Some folks here have had good luck with re-mineralizing RO-filtered
water.
I grew up drinking tap water (the tap water where I grew up is great),
but the (unfiltered) tap water here in Southern California, while safe
to drink and not anywhere near as bad-tasting as the tap water in, say,
Shanghai, is not very delicious.
w
Perhaps the issue is that bottled water is an *unneeded* addition to the
carbon footprint of our species. That's how I see it. I drink bottled
water on road trips, camping, etc, but never just day to day. I see it
having it's place, but to market it as "green" is just plain misleading
IMHO.

In fact, all of carbon footprint of our species is " unneeded ".
Our species was a species before it had an appreciable
carbon footprint. You might go over co2-producing
activities and argue which ones are more or less
unneeded and which ones are more/less costly:

activity X: unneedness-factor: 0.2; co2 cost: 1cm3 per unit/liter/kilo/
etc
activity Y: unneedness-factor: 0.35; co2 cost: 2.5cm3 per unit/liter/
kilo/etc

By the way I found an explanation for Fiji green drop thingy:

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...rbon-negative/

Anyway, I wouldn't call water unneeded. I can probably
last a few weeks without food, much less cars and
radios, but not more than a couple days without water.
And if I have a choice of foul tasting water and nothing,
I will often choose nothing (of course to a point).

Good tasting water should be counted as one of
basic human rights.. By the way, I'm particularly
sensitive to water taste - I can feel much difference
between tea made with slowly boiled water,
quickly boiled water, boiled with an electric
range, an electric pot. It may be beacause I
almost always avoid spicy, seasoned, salty foods
and strong-tasting drinks. For example, I noticed
that if I drink gongfu-prepared oolongs or pu-erhs,
on the next day my usual brewed whites and
greens taste too bland. Once one more day
passes, my taste readjusts and I can enjoy
whites and greens again. -ak

i never called water unneeded, i called bottled water unneeded. awhile
there are areas of the world where safe water cannot be found and water
may need to be shipped in, putting water in little bottles and shipping
them halfway around the globe to someone who can just as easily turn a
faucet for the same quality is pretty much an unneeded item. It's yet
another example of how stupid humans are, and how easily they fall
victim to marketing.

--
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/ The Sushi FAQ ...((((While
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/sushiotaku/ The Sushi Otaku Blog
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/sushiyapedia/ Sushi-Ya-Pedia Restaurant Finder
HTTP://www.theteafaq.com/ The Tea FAQ
HTTP://www.jerkyfaq.com/ The Jerky FAQ
HTTP://www.omega3faq.com/ The Omega 3 Fatty Acids FAQ

On Jul 28, 7:33*am, Warren wrote:

there are areas of the world where safe water cannot be found and water
may need to be shipped in, putting water in little bottles and shipping
them halfway around the globe to someone who can just as easily turn a
faucet for the same quality is pretty much an unneeded item.

This is the gist of the matter, isn't it? Water is necessary to life,
but bottled water may be anything from a frivolous luxury to a
necessity depending on one's circumstances.

Yes, I'll drink bottled water if I am thirsty and there are no other
options for water or some other thirst-quenching drink. However, I
don't buy bottled water by the case or jug because I'm satisfied with
the water I get out of the municipal water supply and filter myself.
If I lived in an area with horrible water, I'm sure I'd be making more
use of bottled water. Or one of those drive-up RO water kiosks.

Alan

On Jul 28, 10:33*am, Warren wrote:
Rainy wrote:
[snip]

Good tasting water should be counted as one of
basic human rights.. By the way, I'm particularly
sensitive to water taste - I can feel much difference
between tea made with slowly boiled water,
quickly boiled water, boiled with an electric
range, an electric pot. It may be beacause I
almost always avoid spicy, seasoned, salty foods
and strong-tasting drinks. For example, I noticed
that if I drink gongfu-prepared oolongs or pu-erhs,
on the next day my usual brewed whites and
greens taste too bland. Once one more day
passes, my taste readjusts and I can enjoy
whites and greens again. -ak

i never called water unneeded, i called bottled water unneeded. awhile
there are areas of the world where safe water cannot be found and water
may need to be shipped in, putting water in little bottles and shipping
them halfway around the globe to someone who can just as easily turn a
faucet for the same quality is pretty much an unneeded item. It's yet
another example of how stupid humans are, and how easily they fall
victim to marketing.

1. My point is that good-tasting water is not " unneeded "
to me and apparently many other people.
2. In some areas indeed there is no safe water. This means
that for them, I'd use a stronger word and say it's crucial
for their survival, not merely needed.
3. Water out of my faucet has a metallic aftertaste.
Filtered water still tastes wrong in a way that's
harder to characterize but it's still very far off.
4. It would be much smarter of you not to suspect
people of being too gullible viz. water marketing
campaings when it's apparent that your tongue
is " not smart enough " to tell foul tasting faucet
water from delicious spring water.
5. People have different priorities. It would seem
that you like sushi, jerky and tea. I also like to
make sushi and obviously love tea but I'd never
make a claim that either of them is more
" needed " than good tasting water.

Exactly in the same way, you might argue that
air is needed for life but fresh air is not " needed ",
as you can survive without it. And yet few would
be willing to live downwind from a city dump,
regardless of the argument that there are cities
or countries who have it even worse.



--
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/The Sushi FAQ *...((((While
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/sushiotaku/The Sushi Otaku Blog
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/sushiyapedia/Sushi-Ya-Pedia Restaurant Finder
HTTP://www.theteafaq.com/The Tea FAQ
HTTP://www.jerkyfaq.com/The Jerky FAQ
HTTP://www.omega3faq.com/The Omega 3 Fatty Acids FAQ

Not according to any tap water versus bottled water blind tasting
taste I've ever seen on the News@5 community service segment required
by the FTC for a broadcast license.

Jim


Rainy wrote:
....down the drain...
4. It would be much smarter of you not to suspect
people of being too gullible viz. water marketing
campaings when it's apparent that your tongue
is " not smart enough " to tell foul tasting faucet
water from delicious spring water.

2. In some areas indeed there is no safe water. This means
that for them, I'd use a stronger word and say it's crucial
for their survival, not merely needed.

Not only that, in some areas, there isn't enough water. Tap water
totally undrinkable (or so they say) - in some parts of China. But in
Fuzhou, it seems most people drink the tap water - but boil it first.
Except the kettle turns all brown on the inside after awhile. But the
boiled water tastes pretty sweet - but not quite as good as what's
available bottled. I don't know where the source of Fuzhou's tap water
comes from - maybe from the mountains surrounding Fuzhou I guess.

Water is kind of a scarce commodity in some areas - that's kind of
scary when you think about it.

Space Cowboy wrote:
Not according to any tap water versus bottled water blind tasting
taste I've ever seen on the News@5 community service segment required
by the FTC for a broadcast license.

Jim

I tried it just now and there is a clear difference. There's
many factors that can be at hand here.. As I mentioned
before, spicy and salty food makes it hard to appreciate
taste of light teas and water. Once my friend tried
filtering NYC tap water through a paper towel - after 1gal
bottle was filled, there was a black/rust coloured stain
on the towel. When I kept tap water in a bottle in the
fridge for a few hours, there was quite a bit of sediment
on the bottom, and it didn't look like mineral sediment,
it looked like some grayish flakes. Sometimes, every
once in a few months, the water here is not clear but
brown, like weak tea.

Bottled water is not all the same. Some of it comes from
tap, too. If they compared tap water from faucet to
tap water from bottles, no wonder they could not tell
the difference (although bottled tap water should be
filtered..). They sell water in cloudy-plastic bottles
that has a very strong plastic aftertaste - even much
worse than tap water. And yet people keep buying them.
If these same people were involved in the blind tests
than I'm not surprised at the result.

As far as I understand it's a common advice here
to filter tap water for tea. Is that wrong, then?
How many people here use plain tap to make
tea?



Rainy wrote:
...down the drain...
4. It would be much smarter of you not to suspect
people of being too gullible viz. water marketing
campaings when it's apparent that your tongue
is " not smart enough " to tell foul tasting faucet
water from delicious spring water.

Rainy writes:

[...]
As far as I understand it's a common advice here to filter tap water
for tea. Is that wrong, then? How many people here use plain tap to
make tea?

I use filtered NYC tap at home.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

My water comes from an aquifer 500 feet below me. My tea kettle looks
like the Grand Canyon. When I change out the batteries on the smoke
detectors I clean out the faucets and washing machine filters. I've
gotten use to the mineral taste and when I drink other water I find it
odd tasting. People say my water taste better than theirs.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
Rainy writes:

[...]
As far as I understand it's a common advice here to filter tap water
for tea. Is that wrong, then? How many people here use plain tap to
make tea?

I use filtered NYC tap at home.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

My water comes from an aquifer 500 feet below me. My tea kettle looks
like the Grand Canyon. When I change out the batteries on the smoke
detectors I clean out the faucets and washing machine filters. I've
gotten use to the mineral taste and when I drink other water I find it odd
tasting. People say my water taste better than theirs.
Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
I use filtered NYC tap at home.
/Lew --- Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html



Hey and Hi,

I use NYC tap water too. It tastes just fine, and brews tea well for the most part. Water taste, as we all know, is, to a very large degree, a matter of what we're used to. But, there is a strong concensus that NYC water, which comes from reservoirs upstate, is clean and healthy.

On a recent trip to central Washington State, I drank tap water from an aquifer. It tasted excellent, and brewed tea better than NYC tap does. The story of my flight back, and why and how I failed to arrive here in NYC with a bottle of said water, is a story for another day. I will say that the WA water was not minerally, but very well adapted to tea brewing.

An experiment recently conducted at The Tea Gallery -- you might remember that place frm previous discussion -- placed two waters side by side, one NYC tap, filtered and stored for some few days in a very large ceramic basin, and the other newly drawn and filtered NYC tap. The former was noticably sweeter, less sharp, and brewed tea nicely. The results of blind (semi-blind) tastings were universal: Everyone reported the same thing, to one degree or another. I replicated the experiment at home and came up with similar results, even though my ceramic bowl was small by comparison (perhaps holding two quarts).

And that's my contribution to the water discussion.

Michael

Michael Plant writes:

[...]

I use NYC tap water too. It tastes just fine, and brews tea well for
the most part. Water taste, as we all know, is, to a very large
degree, a matter of what we're used to. But, there is a strong
concensus that NYC water, which comes from reservoirs upstate, is
clean and healthy.

[...]

An experiment recently conducted at The Tea Gallery -- you might
remember that place frm previous discussion -- placed two waters
side by side, one NYC tap, filtered and stored for some few days in
a very large ceramic basin, and the other newly drawn and filtered
NYC tap. The former was noticably sweeter, less sharp, and brewed
tea nicely. The results of blind (semi-blind) tastings were
universal: Everyone reported the same thing, to one degree or
another. I replicated the experiment at home and came up with
similar results, even though my ceramic bowl was small by comparison
(perhaps holding two quarts).

This is really interesting. But I wonder how much of the effect is
the ceramic and how much is that the water was allowed to breathe the
salubrious NYC air for a few days? Maybe a plastic basin would work
as well?

I'm not joking, except for praising NYC air...

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On 07/31/2008 18:36:15 Lewis Perin wrote:

[...]

I use NYC tap water too. It tastes just fine, and brews tea well for the
most part. Water taste, as we all know, is, to a very large degree, a
matter of what we're used to. But, there is a strong concensus that NYC
water, which comes from reservoirs upstate, is clean and healthy.

[...]

An experiment recently conducted at The Tea Gallery -- you might remember
that place frm previous discussion -- placed two waters side by side, one
NYC tap, filtered and stored for some few days in a very large ceramic
basin, and the other newly drawn and filtered NYC tap. The former was
noticably sweeter, less sharp, and brewed tea nicely. The results of
blind (semi-blind) tastings were
universal: Everyone reported the same thing, to one degree or another. I
replicated the experiment at home and came up with similar results, even
though my ceramic bowl was small by comparison (perhaps holding two
quarts).

This is really interesting. But I wonder how much of the effect is the
ceramic and how much is that the water was allowed to breathe the
salubrious NYC air for a few days? Maybe a plastic basin would work as
well?

I'm not joking, except for praising NYC air...



Well yes, I realize you are not joking. The issues you raise did come up. The next step is to store water in various types of vessels to ascertain differences. It's OK to try this trick at home.
Michael

On Jul 31, 5:05 pm, Michael Plant wrote:
My water comes from an aquifer 500 feet below me. My tea kettle looks
like the Grand Canyon. When I change out the batteries on the smoke
detectors I clean out the faucets and washing machine filters. I've
gotten use to the mineral taste and when I drink other water I find it odd
tasting. People say my water taste better than theirs.
Jim
Lewis Perin wrote:
I use filtered NYC tap at home.
/Lew --- Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Hey and Hi,

I use NYC tap water too. It tastes just fine, and brews tea well for the most part. Water taste, as we all know, is, to a very large degree, a matter of what we're used to. But, there is a strong concensus that NYC water, which comes from reservoirs upstate, is clean and healthy.

On a recent trip to central Washington State, I drank tap water from an aquifer. It tasted excellent, and brewed tea better than NYC tap does. The story of my flight back, and why and how I failed to arrive here in NYC with a bottle of said water, is a story for another day. I will say that the WA water was not minerally, but very well adapted to tea brewing.

An experiment recently conducted at The Tea Gallery -- you might remember that place frm previous discussion -- placed two waters side by side, one NYC tap, filtered and stored for some few days in a very large ceramic basin, and the other newly drawn and filtered NYC tap. The former was noticably sweeter, less sharp, and brewed tea nicely. The results of blind (semi-blind) tastings were universal: Everyone reported the same thing, to one degree or another. I replicated the experiment at home and came up with similar results, even though my ceramic bowl was small by comparison (perhaps holding two quarts).

And that's my contribution to the water discussion.

Michael

I'd guess that was a result of the chlorine coming out of the stored
water. We have really good tap water too but it is no comparison when
I go to a local spring coming straight out of a mountain side near my
home. I've found that a good triple or quad filter on my tap gets it
very close to the spring water though.

And that's my contribution to your contribution to the water
discussion.

- Dominic
PS I'm back, and crazily jet-lagged

"Dominic T." writes:

On Jul 31, 5:05 pm, Michael Plant wrote:

An experiment recently conducted at The Tea Gallery -- you might
remember that place frm previous discussion -- placed two waters
side by side, one NYC tap, filtered and stored for some few days
in a very large ceramic basin, and the other newly drawn and
filtered NYC tap. The former was noticably sweeter, less sharp,
and brewed tea nicely. The results of blind (semi-blind) tastings
were universal: Everyone reported the same thing, to one degree or
another. I replicated the experiment at home and came up with
similar results, even though my ceramic bowl was small by
comparison (perhaps holding two quarts).

And that's my contribution to the water discussion.

I'd guess that was a result of the chlorine coming out of the stored
water. We have really good tap water too but it is no comparison when
I go to a local spring coming straight out of a mountain side near my
home. I've found that a good triple or quad filter on my tap gets it
very close to the spring water though.

He said both samples were filtered, though.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Aug 1, 10:09*am, Lewis Perin wrote:
He said both samples were filtered, though.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /

Yes, but there is chlorine and there is also chloramine which is often
used (chlorine and ammonia so it is more stable and doesn't aerate out
of treated water quickly) Most tap filters remove most of the *taste*
of chlorine but not all of the actual chlorine, so filtering and then
letting it sit will always remove more of it than just filtering or
just sitting. If it is treated with cholramine then tap filters do
less of a job of removing it.

Tap/pitcher/etc. filters are also highly variable in quality to begin
with and then you add on to it the flow rate, when it was last
changed, and on and on... so filtering often is doing less than most
would like to think. I'm not a scientist (don't even play one in my
free time) so anyone is free to disagree/challenge/agree with me, I'm
just going on my basic understanding and experience.

I'm lucky to have grown up in a fairly remote area of PA where there
were tons of well maintained natural springs and now in an area with a
few still and the water from them is amazing. Often "sweet" and
probably has pretty good mineral content which makes amazing tea. That
is what I compare to and even with a fairly high-end tap filter and
then into a filtered pitcher I still prefer to let my water sit for a
bit before using and get good results.

- Dominic