http://muvy.org/new.php?q=catechin

Ah, but why is the LDL getting oxidized in the first place? How did
my Great Grandfather live to be 100+ without any medications or
antioxidant supplements (didn't drink much tea, milk, red wine, or eat
dark chocolate either)? He used a little olive oil, ate only small
portions of meat, and didn't have arachidonic acid in his cells.
Obviously, other things helped too - he got a decent amount of sleep
each night, for example, but the point is that aside from the
indisputable (like getting enough sleep), the key is not to allow
PUFAs into your LDL in the first place. I've cited studies showing
how much more susceptible LDL is to oxidation when it is rich in
PUFAs, so the evidence, when viewed as a whole, is about as strong as
any reasonable person could ask for.

wrote:
Ah, but why is the LDL getting oxidized in the first place? How did
my Great Grandfather live to be 100+ without any medications or
antioxidant supplements (didn't drink much tea, milk, red wine, or eat
dark chocolate either)? He used a little olive oil, ate only small
portions of meat, and didn't have arachidonic acid in his cells.
Obviously, other things helped too - he got a decent amount of sleep
each night, for example, but the point is that aside from the
indisputable (like getting enough sleep), the key is not to allow
PUFAs into your LDL in the first place. I've cited studies showing
how much more susceptible LDL is to oxidation when it is rich in
PUFAs, so the evidence, when viewed as a whole, is about as strong as
any reasonable person could ask for.

Your grandfather probably had outstanding genes. Most of us
have much less.
With those genes you could smoke, drink to your hearts
content, not bother
exercising, eat a lousy diet and you'll still live and be
healthy. Those are the lucky ones.

To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

RuF

On Apr 16, 6:50*am, valhealey wrote:

To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens *- tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft

On Apr 16, 3:35*am, Nigel wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:50*am, valhealey wrote:



To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens *- tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

Tea has NO tannic acid. *Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of *trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft

"Trotting mice?" Toci

Nigel wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:50 am, valhealey wrote:
To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft


Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

RuF writes:

Nigel wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:50 am, valhealey wrote:
To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.
Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,
Nigel at Teacraft

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

Look, tannic acid, like many of the compounds in tea that make it
bitter or astringent, is a polyphenol. That doesn't mean that, e.g.,
tea catechins are the same as tannic acid. You might have a look
he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid

and he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin

By the way, Nigel has provided a lot of good information to this
newsgroup over the years. He has a lot of credibility here. It might
have been a good idea to check that before assuming he was trying to
hide the truths so he could sell something. (Or at least that's what
I *think* you're implying.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Nigel Melican is a long-time and much-appreciated contributor to this
group and I respectfully suggest that RuF, as an apparent newcomer,
hesitate before insulting him and, having done so, apologize.

A bit of research (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin) will show
you that tea contains members of the more general class of tannins (e.g.,
EGCG [I just couldn't resist that phrase - so melodious]) but not tannic
acid: 'Tea "tannins" are chemically distinct from other types of plant
tannins such as tannic acid[5] and tea extracts have been reported to
contain no tannic acid [ibid.].' Now that just took me about three
minutes using the web's most obvious reference.

On this subject, he makes some of the best white tea I have ever tasted.
It's from Malawi, available from http://www.nbtea.co.uk/acatalog/shop.html
(search for "Malawi" when you get there - I find this web site hard to
browse, and most useful when I know what I'm looking for). I like the
Mulanje needles in particular though he recommends the "Antlers d'Amour",
which I have not yet tasted (worth a risk for the name alone).

Conflict of interest: he once sent me small samples of these teas (and
Nigel, though you said you wouldn't mind some green pu erh in return,
you never e-mailed me your postal address).

Rick.

(As a medical researcher, I definitely _am_ in the business of selling
poisons. I have gotten quite a bit of summer salary and grad. student
support from U. Wisconsin's profit off of Warfarin, which was first
proposed as a rat poison then made the lucrative jump to humans.)


In article ,RuF wrote:
Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

In article ,
RuF wrote:
Nigel wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:50 am, valhealey wrote:
To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,


Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

For the most part, it's a change in terminology. A century ago, just
about all the polyphenols and anything even remotely related to them
were referred to as "tannins." Today we are a little bit more careful
about that, and call the stuff in tea catechins instead, because they are.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

Frankly, I find the whole "tea as a health food" thing totally bizarre.
Drink tea that you like the taste of. Slow down and enjoy the tea. If
you are enjoying things, your health will probably be better. If you
are chugging gallons of crappy bottled commercial tea products, your
health probably won't be, because the benefit of slowing down and enjoying
the experience is missing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

RuF wrote:
... Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,
Nigel at Teacraft

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.
Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

Isn't cross-posting like this considered dubious netiquette?
However, I join the thread in both venues to put another vote of support
behind the Teacrafter.

As Lew, Rick and Scott point out, "tannin" is a pretty vague descriptor
with an etymology that long pre-dates anything like modern chemical
terminology. (An alembic of alkahest, anyone?) Where names like the
mouthful abbreviated in EGCG specify a precise molecular structure, many
(mostly so-called "trivial") names in common use specify nothing more
than similarity in only one or two properties out of dozens discernible.
Grease, for example, may derive from animal, vegetable or mineral or
combinations thereof; may commonly be a single phase of hydrocarbon, a
single or mixed monoester, triglyceride, cholesterol derivative or many
others; an aqueous emulsion; or a soap; all with or without additional
solid fillers like graphite or molybdenum disulfide, etc. etc. "All
grease is good for cooking"??

The problem is that, as in most disciplines, almost anyone can learn to
spell/pronounce the jargon and even use it with reasonable syntactic
precision without any real concept of underlying meaning. Nigel's a
seasoned professional *in this field*, as his diverse archived posts
make clear, and can be presumed to know what he's talking about. (I also
consider his probity to be beyond question, even though he's never sent
*me* any free samples.)

BTW, anent spelling, it's "strychnine" - from strychnos, one of
nightshades, a motley family indeed. Talk about bitter - makes caffeine
taste like honey.

-DM
(formerly in the business of designing, manufacturing and selling some
dandy poisons)

On Apr 18, 11:49*pm, DogMa wrote:
RuF wrote:
... Tea has NO tannic acid. *Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of *trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,
Nigel at Teacraft

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.
Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. *:-)

Isn't cross-posting like this considered dubious netiquette?
However, I join the thread in both venues to put another vote of support
behind the Teacrafter.

As Lew, Rick and Scott point out, "tannin" is a pretty vague descriptor
with an etymology that long pre-dates anything like modern chemical
terminology. (An alembic of alkahest, anyone?) Where names like the
mouthful abbreviated in EGCG specify a precise molecular structure, many
(mostly so-called "trivial") names in common use specify nothing more
than similarity in only one or two properties out of dozens discernible.
Grease, for example, may derive from animal, vegetable or mineral or
combinations thereof; may commonly be a single phase of hydrocarbon, *a
single or mixed monoester, triglyceride, cholesterol derivative or many
others; an aqueous emulsion; or a soap; all with or without additional
solid fillers like graphite or molybdenum disulfide, etc. etc. "All
grease is good for cooking"??

The problem is that, as in most disciplines, almost anyone can learn to
spell/pronounce the jargon and even use it with reasonable syntactic
precision without any real concept of underlying meaning. Nigel's a
seasoned professional *in this field*, as his diverse archived posts
make clear, and can be presumed to know what he's talking about. (I also
consider his probity to be beyond question, even though he's never sent
*me* any free samples.)

BTW, anent spelling, it's "strychnine" - from strychnos, one of
nightshades, a motley family indeed. Talk about bitter - makes caffeine
taste like honey.

-DM
(formerly in the business of designing, manufacturing and selling some
dandy poisons)

Dear Friends,
I have planted, grown, nurtured and made Tea for eighteen years and am
now into Blending and Packaging.
Does that make me a know all? No, it simply makes me want to know
more.
This group and its postings have given me an insight into many aspects
of my favourite beverage and my passion, and I would not discourage
the group to discuss any aspect concerning Tea.
But to doubt the credibility of members is simply not called for. I
have learnt from Nigel's posts. Those who wish to differ, and whats
wrong with it? Each one has a right to his opinion, and here is mine:-
One of the main virtues of Tea is that "... it does you no harm".
If it could indeed be used for tanning leather, the populace on the
plantations would not be in such a pitiable state. Can the claimants
of the presence of Tannic Acid in Tea let us know how to extract it
and use it, YES, for tanning leather. it will at least reduce the use
of some toxic chemicals in the leather industry, and perhaps provide
an alternative use for Tea Waste and fibre. There is a humane aspect
in this request, please do not ignore!
Regards,
Jayesh S Pandya.

Well, I think the people have spoken in defense of a mans honor... But
since I have learned so much from Nigel as well, I must also say that
I think this rude behavior deseves an aplology.
Mean people suck.
Jenn

On Apr 15, 7:11 pm, wrote:
He used a little olive oil, ate only small
portions of meat, and didn't have arachidonic acid in his cells.
Obviously, other things helped too - he got a decent amount of sleep
each night, for example, but the point is that aside from the
indisputable (like getting enough sleep), the key is not to allow
PUFAs into your LDL in the first place. I've cited studies showing
how much more susceptible LDL is to oxidation when it is rich in
PUFAs, so the evidence, when viewed as a whole, is about as strong as
any reasonable person could ask for.

Omega-3 FAs (which are PUFAs) are used by the body
to make eicosanoids. These are important signaling molecules
like hormones. They're involved in blood clotting, blood pressure,
etc.

Useful:
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/foods/fn620-1.gif

On Apr 15, 5:47 pm, Joe wrote:
http://muvy.org/new.php?q=catechin

Milk has long been known to destroy the health benefits of many foods,
such as Milk Chocolate.
--
John H. Gohde
http://naturalhealthjournal.wordpress.com/

On Apr 20, 7:03*am, Mr-Natural-Health john-h-
wrote:
On Apr 15, 5:47 pm, Joe wrote:

http://muvy.org/new.php?q=catechin

Milk has long been known to destroy the health benefits of many foods,
such as Milk Chocolate.
--
John H. Gohdehttp://naturalhealthjournal.wordpress.com/

I'm assuming this problem does not exist with Soy Milk, only cow's
milk - correct?

- JayDee