Richard Chappell wrote:
Nigel Melican is a long-time and much-appreciated contributor to this
group and I respectfully suggest that RuF, as an apparent newcomer,
hesitate before insulting him and, having done so, apologize.

A bit of research (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin) will show
you that tea contains members of the more general class of tannins (e.g.,
EGCG [I just couldn't resist that phrase - so melodious]) but not tannic
acid: 'Tea "tannins" are chemically distinct from other types of plant
tannins such as tannic acid[5] and tea extracts have been reported to
contain no tannic acid [ibid.].' Now that just took me about three
minutes using the web's most obvious reference.

On this subject, he makes some of the best white tea I have ever tasted.
It's from Malawi, available from http://www.nbtea.co.uk/acatalog/shop.html
(search for "Malawi" when you get there - I find this web site hard to
browse, and most useful when I know what I'm looking for). I like the
Mulanje needles in particular though he recommends the "Antlers d'Amour",
which I have not yet tasted (worth a risk for the name alone).

Conflict of interest: he once sent me small samples of these teas (and
Nigel, though you said you wouldn't mind some green pu erh in return,
you never e-mailed me your postal address).

Rick.

(As a medical researcher, I definitely _am_ in the business of selling
poisons. I have gotten quite a bit of summer salary and grad. student
support from U. Wisconsin's profit off of Warfarin, which was first
proposed as a rat poison then made the lucrative jump to humans.)


In article ,RuF wrote:
Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

Then that story about the tannic acid in tea must
have been either a
communist plot or the British Dairy Industry was
trying to sell more milk ;-)

Whether it is spelled Strichnine or strychnine, it
tastes the same and is just as
effective.

Haf a great weekend :-)

On Apr 26, 12:10*am, RF wrote:
Then that story about the tannic acid in tea must
have been either a
communist plot or the British Dairy Industry was
trying to sell more milk *;-)

Just to reiterate on this thread and to return to the original
context:

The original "story" did not mention tannic acid - it mentioned
catechins (antioxidant flavanols).

Black tea - the one that milk is generally added to - contains
oxidised catechins (theaflavins) and polymerized theaflavins
(thearubigins) - these are also powerful and beneficial antioxidants.
Tannic acid is not an antioxidant, neither is it a component of
Camellia sinensis tea.

The German study indicated a beneficial and measurable vein dilation
at the measured site (the hand if I remember correctly) due to a
recent intake of black tea, but this effect was reduced if milk was
added.

However, the German study used a very small test group, used an all
female test group, used tea at German drinking strength (weak), and
used milk at 3 or 4x the normal (British) level. I would take this
limited evidence as inconclusive and it certainly did not justify, as
the BBC and other media proclaimed, a blanket condemnation of the use
of milk in tea.

And just to summarize - nobody mentioned tannic acid.

Nigel at Teacraft

Joe wrote:
http://muvy.org/new.php?q=catechin

You can lower your blood LDL level by taking niacin, pyridoxine,
pantethine, and oat bran.

By the way, the BBC article said "the caseins in milk prevented this
effect by reducing the concentration of catechins in the tea," not that
it destroys catechins.

I found it curious that they attributed the whole effect to nitric
oxide. You'd think that would have been considered long ago, and there
wouldn't have been any mystery about tea at all.


--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

valhealey wrote:
wrote:
Ah, but why is the LDL getting oxidized in the first place? How did
my Great Grandfather live to be 100+ without any medications or
antioxidant supplements (didn't drink much tea, milk, red wine, or eat
dark chocolate either)? He used a little olive oil, ate only small
portions of meat, and didn't have arachidonic acid in his cells.
Obviously, other things helped too - he got a decent amount of sleep
each night, for example, but the point is that aside from the
indisputable (like getting enough sleep), the key is not to allow
PUFAs into your LDL in the first place. I've cited studies showing
how much more susceptible LDL is to oxidation when it is rich in
PUFAs, so the evidence, when viewed as a whole, is about as strong as
any reasonable person could ask for.

Your grandfather probably had outstanding genes. Most of us
have much less.
With those genes you could smoke, drink to your hearts
content, not bother
exercising, eat a lousy diet and you'll still live and be
healthy. Those are the lucky ones.

To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

RuF

The tannins are supposed to be responsible for health benefits, and
despite your bad luck with inquiries, I suspect they do tend to join up
with proteins in the milk. In any case, your digestive tract is lined
with epithelial cells which reproduce rapidly and slough off,
contributing quite a bit of bulk to the output (pardon my French). So I
wouldn't worry about the leather pouch effect.

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Nigel wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:50 am, valhealey wrote:
To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.

Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft

I do believe you're mistaken, Nigel. Tannic acid, according to Merck
Index 13, is simply a synonym for tannins in general, "the chemistry of
[which] is most complex and non-uniform. Tannins may be divided into 2
groups: (a) derivatives of flavanols, so-called condensed tannins and
(b) hydrolyzable tannins (the more important group) which are esters of
a sugar, usually glucose, with one or more trihydroxybenzenecarboxylic
acids."

Unlike most acids, "tannic acid" doesn't refer to any specific
molecular compound, but is the name of commercial product used, among
other things, for tanning leather.

If you go to the Wikipedia article, you'll find a link to a paper
which refers to tea as a rich source of tannic acid.

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Nigel wrote:
On Apr 26, 12:10 am, RF wrote:
Then that story about the tannic acid in tea must
have been either a
communist plot or the British Dairy Industry was
trying to sell more milk ;-)

Just to reiterate on this thread and to return to the original
context:

The original "story" did not mention tannic acid - it mentioned
catechins (antioxidant flavanols).

Black tea - the one that milk is generally added to - contains
oxidised catechins (theaflavins) and polymerized theaflavins
(thearubigins) - these are also powerful and beneficial antioxidants.
Tannic acid is not an antioxidant, neither is it a component of
Camellia sinensis tea.

The German study indicated a beneficial and measurable vein dilation
at the measured site (the hand if I remember correctly) due to a
recent intake of black tea, but this effect was reduced if milk was
added.

However, the German study used a very small test group, used an all
female test group, used tea at German drinking strength (weak), and
used milk at 3 or 4x the normal (British) level. I would take this
limited evidence as inconclusive and it certainly did not justify, as
the BBC and other media proclaimed, a blanket condemnation of the use
of milk in tea.

And just to summarize - nobody mentioned tannic acid.

For the record, I found the definition of tannic acid in /The Random
House Dictionary/ to be consistent with that in /The Merck Index/.

Where did you find the formula for "Acidum Tannicum" (C14 H10 O9)?
/The Merck Index/ calls that "digallic acid" and says that in
"pharmaceutical literature the name digallic acid is frequently confused
with tannic acid," and under "tannic acid" says "Incorrectly 'digallic
acid.'" So it appears to me that you're either unaware of the confusion
or trying to perpetuate it for some reason.

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
RuF wrote:
Nigel wrote:
On Apr 16, 6:50 am, valhealey wrote:
To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas
are drunk with milk in
places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known
that these teas have
tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting
animal skins into
leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to
the use of small amounts
milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none.
If you want a leather
pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without
milk and your arteries
will improve.
Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

For the most part, it's a change in terminology. A century ago, just
about all the polyphenols and anything even remotely related to them
were referred to as "tannins." Today we are a little bit more careful
about that, and call the stuff in tea catechins instead, because they are.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

Frankly, I find the whole "tea as a health food" thing totally bizarre.
Drink tea that you like the taste of. Slow down and enjoy the tea. If
you are enjoying things, your health will probably be better. If you
are chugging gallons of crappy bottled commercial tea products, your
health probably won't be, because the benefit of slowing down and enjoying
the experience is missing.
--scott

I wish I had a Nagra. All I could afford was a Uher.

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

teapandya wrote:
On Apr 18, 11:49 pm, DogMa wrote:
RuF wrote:
... Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,
Nigel at Teacraft
Since you are in the business, I question your statement.
Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)
Isn't cross-posting like this considered dubious netiquette?
However, I join the thread in both venues to put another vote of support
behind the Teacrafter.

As Lew, Rick and Scott point out, "tannin" is a pretty vague descriptor
with an etymology that long pre-dates anything like modern chemical
terminology. (An alembic of alkahest, anyone?) Where names like the
mouthful abbreviated in EGCG specify a precise molecular structure, many
(mostly so-called "trivial") names in common use specify nothing more
than similarity in only one or two properties out of dozens discernible.
Grease, for example, may derive from animal, vegetable or mineral or
combinations thereof; may commonly be a single phase of hydrocarbon, a
single or mixed monoester, triglyceride, cholesterol derivative or many
others; an aqueous emulsion; or a soap; all with or without additional
solid fillers like graphite or molybdenum disulfide, etc. etc. "All
grease is good for cooking"??

The problem is that, as in most disciplines, almost anyone can learn to
spell/pronounce the jargon and even use it with reasonable syntactic
precision without any real concept of underlying meaning. Nigel's a
seasoned professional *in this field*, as his diverse archived posts
make clear, and can be presumed to know what he's talking about. (I also
consider his probity to be beyond question, even though he's never sent
*me* any free samples.)

BTW, anent spelling, it's "strychnine" - from strychnos, one of
nightshades, a motley family indeed. Talk about bitter - makes caffeine
taste like honey.

-DM
(formerly in the business of designing, manufacturing and selling some
dandy poisons)

Dear Friends,
I have planted, grown, nurtured and made Tea for eighteen years and am
now into Blending and Packaging.
Does that make me a know all? No, it simply makes me want to know
more.
This group and its postings have given me an insight into many aspects
of my favourite beverage and my passion, and I would not discourage
the group to discuss any aspect concerning Tea.
But to doubt the credibility of members is simply not called for. I
have learnt from Nigel's posts. Those who wish to differ, and whats
wrong with it? Each one has a right to his opinion, and here is mine:-
One of the main virtues of Tea is that "... it does you no harm".
If it could indeed be used for tanning leather, the populace on the
plantations would not be in such a pitiable state. Can the claimants
of the presence of Tannic Acid in Tea let us know how to extract it
and use it, YES, for tanning leather. it will at least reduce the use
of some toxic chemicals in the leather industry, and perhaps provide
an alternative use for Tea Waste and fibre. There is a humane aspect
in this request, please do not ignore!
Regards,
Jayesh S Pandya.

Dictionaries and other reference books don't have the power to mold
the world to conform to the desires of us tea lovers. They have to
explain to people working with tannic acid every day such things as its
applications, which include, according to Merck 13 (entry #9141):

"Mordant in dyeing; manuf ink; sizing paper and silk; printing
fabrics; with gelatin and albumin for manuf of imitation horn and
tortoise shell; tanning; clarifying beer or wine; in photography; as
coagulant in rubber manuf; manuf gallic acid and pyrogallol; as reagent
in analytical chemistry.

"THERAP CAT: Astringent.

"THERAP CAT (VET): Astringent, hemostatic, in solutions for burns.
Has been used internally as an astringent and as a heavy metal antidote."

Leather tanning is a trade relegated to the lowly burakumin in Japan
(who also handle garbage and corpses) and is banished to districts far
downwind from human settlements in the Maghreb. I don't know much about
it except that it requires letting the skins of dead animals decay
somewhat before treating them with lye and tannic acid, and that it
smells very bad.

I doubt there's much tannic acid in tea, especially since the Merck
article contains a reference to a study of its toxicity and says in
italics, "Keep well closed and protected from light." It also says it's
"produced from Turkish or Chinese nutgall." So tea is obviously not the
preferred source of it.

(Incidentally, nutrition fans, it occurs in the bark of myrobalan.
Doesn't that ring a bell?)


--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

On Apr 27, 3:29*am, Marshall Price wrote:
teapandya wrote:
On Apr 18, 11:49 pm, DogMa wrote:
RuF wrote:
... Tea has NO tannic acid. *Tea, not even the strong black Irish
Breakfast blend so beloved of *trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,
Nigel at Teacraft
Since you are in the business, I question your statement.
Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. *:-)
Isn't cross-posting like this considered dubious netiquette?
However, I join the thread in both venues to put another vote of support
behind the Teacrafter.

As Lew, Rick and Scott point out, "tannin" is a pretty vague descriptor
with an etymology that long pre-dates anything like modern chemical
terminology. (An alembic of alkahest, anyone?) Where names like the
mouthful abbreviated in EGCG specify a precise molecular structure, many
(mostly so-called "trivial") names in common use specify nothing more
than similarity in only one or two properties out of dozens discernible..
Grease, for example, may derive from animal, vegetable or mineral or
combinations thereof; may commonly be a single phase of hydrocarbon, *a
single or mixed monoester, triglyceride, cholesterol derivative or many
others; an aqueous emulsion; or a soap; all with or without additional
solid fillers like graphite or molybdenum disulfide, etc. etc. "All
grease is good for cooking"??

The problem is that, as in most disciplines, almost anyone can learn to
spell/pronounce the jargon and even use it with reasonable syntactic
precision without any real concept of underlying meaning. Nigel's a
seasoned professional *in this field*, as his diverse archived posts
make clear, and can be presumed to know what he's talking about. (I also
consider his probity to be beyond question, even though he's never sent
*me* any free samples.)

BTW, anent spelling, it's "strychnine" - from strychnos, one of
nightshades, a motley family indeed. Talk about bitter - makes caffeine
taste like honey.

-DM
(formerly in the business of designing, manufacturing and selling some
dandy poisons)

Dear Friends,
I have planted, grown, nurtured and made Tea for eighteen years and am
now into Blending and Packaging.
Does that make me a know all? No, it simply makes me want to know
more.
This group and its postings have given me an insight into many aspects
of my favourite beverage and my passion, and I would not discourage
the group to discuss any aspect concerning Tea.
But to doubt the credibility of members is simply not called for. I
have learnt from Nigel's posts. Those who wish to differ, and whats
wrong with it? Each one has a right to his opinion, and here is mine:-
One of the main virtues of Tea is that "... it does you no harm".
If it could indeed be used for tanning leather, the populace on the
plantations would not be in such a pitiable state. Can the claimants
of the presence of Tannic Acid in Tea let us know how to extract it
and use it, YES, for tanning leather. it will at least reduce the use
of some toxic chemicals in the leather industry, and perhaps provide
an alternative use for Tea Waste and fibre. There is a humane aspect
in this request, please do not ignore!
Regards,
Jayesh S Pandya.

* *Dictionaries and other reference books don't have the power to mold
the world to conform to the desires of us tea lovers. *They have to
explain to people working with tannic acid every day such things as its
applications, which include, according to Merck 13 (entry #9141):

* *"Mordant in dyeing; manuf ink; sizing paper and silk; printing
fabrics; with gelatin and albumin for manuf of imitation horn and
tortoise shell; tanning; clarifying beer or wine; in photography; as
coagulant in rubber manuf; manuf gallic acid and pyrogallol; as reagent
in analytical chemistry.

* *"THERAP CAT: Astringent.

* *"THERAP CAT (VET): Astringent, hemostatic, in solutions for burns.
Has been used internally as an astringent and as a heavy metal antidote."

* *Leather tanning is a trade relegated to the lowly burakumin in Japan
(who also handle garbage and corpses) and is banished to districts far
downwind from human settlements in the Maghreb. *I don't know much about
it except that it requires letting the skins of dead animals decay
somewhat before treating them with lye and tannic acid, and that it
smells very bad.

* *I doubt there's much tannic acid in tea, especially since the Merck
article contains a reference to a study of its toxicity and says in
italics, "Keep well closed and protected from light." *It also says it's
"produced from Turkish or Chinese nutgall." *So tea is obviously not the
preferred source of it.

* *(Incidentally, nutrition fans, it occurs in the bark of myrobalan.
Doesn't that ring a bell?)

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

dont mean to dilute the information posted but you forgot this one:

Suppositories ....have been used in the treatment of hemorrhoids (JEF
Reynolds , 2000). Tannic acid was formerly used locally for sore
throat and stomatitis and to harden nipples during nursing (Osol &
Hoover, 1975). It was also formerly used in the treatment of extensive
burns, orally as a antidiarrheal agent, and as an additive to barium
sulfate enemas to improved radiological imaging of the colon (JEF
Reynolds , 2000; HSDB , 2000).

yup, the poison/drug index has tea tannins included in the
'definition'

THERAPEUTIC/TOXIC CLASS
A) Tannic acid is a tannin obtained from nutgall and species of oak,
sumac and myrobalam. Tannins are widely distributed in the plant
kingdom (Osol & Farrar, 1955; Peaslee & Einhellig, 1973).
B) Tannic acid/tannins are complex compounds which are not uniform.
They are divided into 2 groups, one which includes derivatives of
flavonols (condensed tannins) and the other including hydrolyzable
tannins which are esters of a sugar with one or more
trihydroxybenzene- carboxylic acids (Budavari, 1996).

&
Gallotannin (aka: Digallic acid(Misnomer for tannic acid) and
Gallotannic acid) SYNONYMS: Tannic acid, Tannin

Marshall Price wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Frankly, I find the whole "tea as a health food" thing totally bizarre.
Drink tea that you like the taste of. Slow down and enjoy the tea. If
you are enjoying things, your health will probably be better. If you
are chugging gallons of crappy bottled commercial tea products, your
health probably won't be, because the benefit of slowing down and enjoying
the experience is missing.

I wish I had a Nagra. All I could afford was a Uher.

You probably can now... the Nagra III is basically worth nothing these
days and you can find a refurb unit for a few hundred bucks. And the thing
is, it still sounds damn good.

I did some work for a while with an original Report-L 4000, and I found it
could sound pretty good if you are very careful with levels everywhere in
the chain. Some of the cuts on the Balticon compilation album were done with
the Repoort-L and they don't sound bad at all if I do say so myself.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Marshall Price wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Frankly, I find the whole "tea as a health food" thing totally bizarre.
Drink tea that you like the taste of. Slow down and enjoy the tea. If
you are enjoying things, your health will probably be better. If you
are chugging gallons of crappy bottled commercial tea products, your
health probably won't be, because the benefit of slowing down and enjoying
the experience is missing.

I wish I had a Nagra. All I could afford was a Uher.

You probably can now... the Nagra III is basically worth nothing these
days and you can find a refurb unit for a few hundred bucks. And the thing
is, it still sounds damn good.

I did some work for a while with an original Report-L 4000, and I found it
could sound pretty good if you are very careful with levels everywhere in
the chain. Some of the cuts on the Balticon compilation album were done with
the Repoort-L and they don't sound bad at all if I do say so myself.

....featuring our own Balt?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Marshall Price wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Frankly, I find the whole "tea as a health food" thing totally bizarre.
Drink tea that you like the taste of. Slow down and enjoy the tea. If
you are enjoying things, your health will probably be better. If you
are chugging gallons of crappy bottled commercial tea products, your
health probably won't be, because the benefit of slowing down and enjoying
the experience is missing.
I wish I had a Nagra. All I could afford was a Uher.

You probably can now... the Nagra III is basically worth nothing these
days and you can find a refurb unit for a few hundred bucks. And the thing
is, it still sounds damn good.

I did some work for a while with an original Report-L 4000, and I found it
could sound pretty good if you are very careful with levels everywhere in
the chain. Some of the cuts on the Balticon compilation album were done with
the Repoort-L and they don't sound bad at all if I do say so myself.
--scott

(Off topic: about old high-quality portable tape recorders.)

I recorded ocean waves breaking on the shore at 7-1/2 in/s on my Uher
Report Stereo and played them back at 15/16 in/s, and they sounded
amazing, like the sound track of a terrifying Hollywood tempest. When I
did the same of wine pouring from a jug into a wineglass, it sounded
like huge cathedral bells tolling. The room I recorded it in was a
rather large living room with a high ceiling, and I suppose the playback
made its linear dimensions sound eight times as large, and the
frequencies three octaves lower.

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to record more bird songs, because
those I did were incredibly beautiful at low speed.

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Marshall Price writes:

[...]
(Off topic: about old high-quality portable tape recorders.)
[...]
I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to record more bird songs, because
those I did were incredibly beautiful at low speed.

Billie Holiday in her prime played back at half speed sounds like
Louis Armstrong: glorious.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
Marshall Price writes:

[...]
(Off topic: about old high-quality portable tape recorders.)
[...]
I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to record more bird songs, because
those I did were incredibly beautiful at low speed.

Billie Holiday in her prime played back at half speed sounds like
Louis Armstrong: glorious.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Shucks. I've missed a lot, focusing on only sixty subjects at a time.

But at least I saw Louis Armstrong live. It was on the site of the
1939 New York World's Fair, in an open-air theater with the stage on an
island. He was a real tape-recorder fanatic!

All we had was an old wire recorder, and when we got rid of it, we
threw away all the old home recordings.

Dad (Georgie Price) was one of the first great recording artists, now
long forgotten. He was the first non-classical singer to get a
long-term contract (5 years) with RCA Victor, after which he went over
to Vitaphone. When he was a kid, Enrico Caruso wanted to adopt him, but
Gus Edwards did so by offering the family more money -- $15 a week for
him plus $15 for them.

(After working for Edwards for more than ten years, it turned out
that the money supposedly set aside for him didn't exist, but the money
the family got was enough to support all ten of them!)

His theme song was "Bye Bye Blackbird," but I think "Barney Google"
actually sold more copies. Back then, almost every record went gold.
There were lots of phonograph players, but not many records!


--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Marshall Price writes:

Lewis Perin wrote:
Marshall Price writes:

[...]
(Off topic: about old high-quality portable tape recorders.)
[...]
I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to record more bird songs, because
those I did were incredibly beautiful at low speed.
Billie Holiday in her prime played back at half speed sounds like
Louis Armstrong: glorious.

Shucks. I've missed a lot, focusing on only sixty subjects at a time.

But at least I saw Louis Armstrong live. It was on the site of the
1939 New York World's Fair, in an open-air theater with the stage on
an island. He was a real tape-recorder fanatic!

Next time you're in New York, you need to visit the Armstrong home
(which is now a museum), not far from the World's Fair site.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html