Vendors still insist the greens and lightly roasted (qing xiang)
wulongs benefit in freshness from keeping them in the freezer. They
use allusions to fresh green vegetables as an example but I'm
wondering how much of this is actually beneficial. They also claim
that special types of freezers are required to maintain proper storage
of these teas at a certain temperature.

It seems to me the only benefit for keeping wulongs like tie guan yin
in the fridge is that it will help to amplify the astrigency of the
tea. This seems especially so for spring teas that are naturally more
astrigent.


Do ya'll have any experiences with putting your teas in the freezer?
I sorta think that it makes the chemical flavorings more poignant.

As an aside, there are no freezers "only for tea".

On Nov 26, 9:40 am, Mydnight wrote:
Vendors still insist the greens and lightly roasted (qing xiang)
wulongs benefit in freshness from keeping them in the freezer. They
use allusions to fresh green vegetables as an example but I'm
wondering how much of this is actually beneficial. They also claim
that special types of freezers are required to maintain proper storage
of these teas at a certain temperature.

It seems to me the only benefit for keeping wulongs like tie guan yin
in the fridge is that it will help to amplify the astrigency of the
tea. This seems especially so for spring teas that are naturally more
astrigent.

Do ya'll have any experiences with putting your teas in the freezer?
I sorta think that it makes the chemical flavorings more poignant.

As an aside, there are no freezers "only for tea".

Again, as with any new hyped thing, common sense pays off. Tea has
been enjoyed successfully for a lot longer than freezers and even
electricity. A container as air tight as possible, opaque and stored
in a fairly normal temp. range (60-80 degrees F) is just fine.

Any benefit from it is going to be offset by any number of factors and
issues that could be introduced. There's always someone trying to
invent a better mousetrap, but the reality is that the tried and true
method remains for a reason.

- Dominic

Do ya'll have any experiences with putting your teas in the freezer?
Sure, in Fujian, tea won't last past 3 months if not stored in the
freezer. This is especially true during the hottest months. It gets
quite hot and humid in southern China, and these light kinds of teas
go bad fast. That's why everything has to be vacuum sealed,
individually wrapped, and stored in a freezer to keep the tea fresh.
Now that's in southern China, where temperature and humidity play a
factor.
There, it's great for storing sheng puer, but not for some qingxiang
type wulong teas.

Flying on a plane over to Toronto, Canada, and onto the Great Lakes,
the climate is much different that that of southern China. Not humid
as in China. And not as hot. I've had some of these lighter type
oolongs stored away for years now. And coming back to Canada, I
thought for darn sure, they would have changed dramatically to become
"old tea". Anyway, since I was jet lagged, I brewed some up one night
at home - and I was astonished at the taste and flavor. It was not a
very expensive tea to begin with, but the taste and flavor were still
pretty good - not having that "old tea" taste, aroma, and color. It
still tasted pretty fresh, not stale at all. So bonus - a 2000 spring
tea, brewed in the winter of 2007 and still holding up!! Pretty
awesome!!

As an aside, there are no freezers "only for tea".
What do you mean there are no freezers "only for tea"? Just about
every tea store in China has at least one. Some stores have 3 or 4
freezers. And they're pulling bags of tea in and out of freezers all
the time. Heck, if you go to Anxi, people have small freezers or
fridges in their offices and homes just for tea. They don't mess
around over there. They know their teas deteriorate fast because of
the climate - even if they're vacuum sealed. So they keep them under
cold storage all the time. People are pretty freakin demanding when it
comes to tea in Fujian. They don't like drinking stale, old tea; or
even cheap tea. So they don't fool around. Tea has to be fresh here.

Sure, in Fujian, tea won't last past 3 months if not stored in the
freezer. This is especially true during the hottest months. It gets
quite hot and humid in southern China, and these light kinds of teas
go bad fast. That's why everything has to be vacuum sealed,
individually wrapped, and stored in a freezer to keep the tea fresh.
Now that's in southern China, where temperature and humidity play a
factor.
There, it's great for storing sheng puer, but not for some qingxiang
type wulong teas.

I'm going to have to go with Dominic on this one. I have never seen
sheng pu'er put in a freezer before and it's almost exclusively light
roast Tie Guan Yin from Anxi or some types of green teas. I live in
Southern China; in the humidity and the heat. The vacuum sealing I
understand, but popping your best TGY into the freezer? Putting sheng
pu'er in the freezer would be sorta pointless wouldn't it? It's
usually hoped the tea will age in the heavy humidity of Southern
China; that's why most storage is done here and not in Yunnan where
it's more dry.

The heavy or medium roasted wulongs wouldn't need freezer storage
anyway, they usually go through a second "oxidation/fermentation" in
the bag (fa jiao ·¢½Í) after you open it and expose the tea to air.
I've drank tea with some Taiwanese that said it was "too new" a few
times. They advised me to open it and let it sit for a while, like a
month, before trying it again.

Flying on a plane over to Toronto, Canada, and onto the Great Lakes,
the climate is much different that that of southern China. Not humid
as in China. And not as hot. I've had some of these lighter type
oolongs stored away for years now. And coming back to Canada, I
thought for darn sure, they would have changed dramatically to become
"old tea". Anyway, since I was jet lagged, I brewed some up one night
at home - and I was astonished at the taste and flavor. It was not a
very expensive tea to begin with, but the taste and flavor were still
pretty good - not having that "old tea" taste, aroma, and color. It
still tasted pretty fresh, not stale at all. So bonus - a 2000 spring
tea, brewed in the winter of 2007 and still holding up!! Pretty
awesome!!



As an aside, there are no freezers "only for tea".

What do you mean there are no freezers "only for tea"? Just about
every tea store in China has at least one. Some stores have 3 or 4
freezers. And they're pulling bags of tea in and out of freezers all
the time. Heck, if you go to Anxi, people have small freezers or
fridges in their offices and homes just for tea. They don't mess
around over there. They know their teas deteriorate fast because of
the climate - even if they're vacuum sealed. So they keep them under
cold storage all the time. People are pretty freakin demanding when it
comes to tea in Fujian. They don't like drinking stale, old tea; or
even cheap tea. So they don't fool around. Tea has to be fresh here.

I mean freezers commerically produced exclusively for tea. I bought a
small freezer once for tea storage as well and no matter what kind of
setting I used with it, I think the tea was always left with a freon-
freezer burned taste. This was not a crap freezer either.

Other times I've seen freezers that weren't cold enough that caused
condensation to form inside and on the bags. I guess the freezer
would have to be really cold. Like the type you use to store meats
for a long term.

On Nov 27, 6:28 am, Mydnight wrote:
Other times I've seen freezers that weren't cold enough that caused
condensation to form inside and on the bags.

If the condensation was frozen within the bag then the tea was too
moist rather than the freezer not cold enough - if the condensation
was liquid then the freezer was above zero C - refrigerator not
freezer. If you can see through the bags then they are no good for
storing tea in a freezer - they will let in taints, let out aroma, and
cannot be properly sealed. Moisture will inevitably get through
polythene or nylon bags knotted or zip locked or through pinholes.

I guess the freezer would have to be really cold.

Yes, minus 18 deg C is necessary and no fluctuations

I bought a small freezer once for tea storage as well and no matter
what kind of
setting I used with it, I think the tea was always left with a freon-
freezer burned taste.

Could only be tainted if the bag was unsuitable and was not
hermetically sealed. Bags needs to be laminated polyfoil and sealed
with a suitable heat sealer. A vacuum is not strictly necessary - but
does indicate a good hermetic seal.

There seems to be some confusion in some other mails to this thread
about the difference between refrigerators (fridges) and freezers -
the former run above freezing at 2 to 5 deg C, and a decent domestic
freezer runs at minus 18 deg C. I would never put dry tea into a
refrigerator even if hermetically sealed (impossible to achieve
without a heat sealer and polyfoil pouches). The reduction in
deterioration at fridge temperature is so slight as to make the bother
of hermetically sealing a waste of time and expense. For long term
storage of tea hermetic sealing and freezing at minus 18 deg is
worthwhile if your tea is not as dry as it could be. I used to keep
multiple samples of control teas (commercial baseline quality at
around 6% moisture content) for experimental work in this way - taking
out individually packed samples at monthly intervals to compare with
teas aging under a range of climatic conditions.

Tea frozen and correctly kept under tfreezer conditions will have no
"freezer taint" or freezer burn - however, I have seen people waste
their time and their tea by putting it into the freezer in a ziplok
bag then taking it out at intervals to extract some tea under humid
kitchen conditions - and expecting it to store well, It will not -
remember that the acid test for hermetic sealing is that you could
store your package under water without qualms - anything less is just
not hermetic. And always let the sample reach room temperature before
opening and do not refreeze it.

However, if tea is at or below 3% moisture content (as it would be
straight from the factory dryer) hermetic sealing and keeping at room
temperature is fine - I have opened up tea after 12 years of storage
under these conditions and it was as fresh as the day I made it.
Redrying tea at intervals back to 3% moisture ("gapping") was always a
recognized way of extending its storage life under humid ambient
conditions.

Nigel at Teacraft
..

Putting sheng pu'er in the freezer would be sorta pointless wouldn't it?

I wasn't saying put sheng puer into the freezer. I was saying the
climate in southern China is amenable to sheng puer storage; while on
the other hand, light roast or lightly fermented wulong teas like
tieguanyin don't store well in that area given the high temperatures
and humidity. Moreover, when you consider the houses and offices in
southern China - no air conditioning in summer, no heat in winter -
the temperatures are so extreme - tieguanyin stored at those kinds of
temperatures just won't do so well when stored on a shelf. That's why
they store all those teas in the freezer. Those freezers usually have
digital controls, so you know exactly what the inner temperature is.
But, the high humidity is good for sheng puer, and they got them on
shelves and on the floor, and in all kinds of places.

Yeah one thing though, you might see a nice display at some tea store
when you walk in. But if you hear majong tiles clicking in the back,
run for it!!! That kind of place is not a real tea store - it's just a
front for a gambling operation. Well, at least, they would rather play
majong than be serious about tea, hahahahaha.

On Nov 27, 7:28 am, Nigel wrote:
On Nov 27, 6:28 am, Mydnight wrote:

Other times I've seen freezers that weren't cold enough that caused
condensation to form inside and on the bags.

If the condensation was frozen within the bag then the tea was too
moist rather than the freezer not cold enough - if the condensation
was liquid then the freezer was above zero C - refrigerator not
freezer. If you can see through the bags then they are no good for
storing tea in a freezer - they will let in taints, let out aroma, and
cannot be properly sealed. Moisture will inevitably get through
polythene or nylon bags knotted or zip locked or through pinholes.

I guess the freezer would have to be really cold.

Yes, minus 18 deg C is necessary and no fluctuations

I bought a small freezer once for tea storage as well and no matter
what kind of

setting I used with it, I think the tea was always left with a freon-
freezer burned taste.

Could only be tainted if the bag was unsuitable and was not
hermetically sealed. Bags needs to be laminated polyfoil and sealed
with a suitable heat sealer. A vacuum is not strictly necessary - but
does indicate a good hermetic seal.

There seems to be some confusion in some other mails to this thread
about the difference between refrigerators (fridges) and freezers -
the former run above freezing at 2 to 5 deg C, and a decent domestic
freezer runs at minus 18 deg C. I would never put dry tea into a
refrigerator even if hermetically sealed (impossible to achieve
without a heat sealer and polyfoil pouches). The reduction in
deterioration at fridge temperature is so slight as to make the bother
of hermetically sealing a waste of time and expense. For long term
storage of tea hermetic sealing and freezing at minus 18 deg is
worthwhile if your tea is not as dry as it could be. I used to keep
multiple samples of control teas (commercial baseline quality at
around 6% moisture content) for experimental work in this way - taking
out individually packed samples at monthly intervals to compare with
teas aging under a range of climatic conditions.

Tea frozen and correctly kept under tfreezer conditions will have no
"freezer taint" or freezer burn - however, I have seen people waste
their time and their tea by putting it into the freezer in a ziplok
bag then taking it out at intervals to extract some tea under humid
kitchen conditions - and expecting it to store well, It will not -
remember that the acid test for hermetic sealing is that you could
store your package under water without qualms - anything less is just
not hermetic. And always let the sample reach room temperature before
opening and do not refreeze it.

However, if tea is at or below 3% moisture content (as it would be
straight from the factory dryer) hermetic sealing and keeping at room
temperature is fine - I have opened up tea after 12 years of storage
under these conditions and it was as fresh as the day I made it.
Redrying tea at intervals back to 3% moisture ("gapping") was always a
recognized way of extending its storage life under humid ambient
conditions.

Nigel at Teacraft
.

Not to minimize all that has been said here (because it is accurate
and informative) but it still all comes down to: Stick with the
conventional wisdom and tradition.

Sure it may vary slightly by region, but for the most part what has
worked for eons is still fine. But many folks like Ron Popeil wouldn't
be crazy rich if it weren't for millions of people who are all too
ready to be part of "The New Best Thing!" Set it and forget it. New
gadgets and toys are fun but imagine all the great tea you could buy
instead of a freezer and the necessary accouterments/electricity that
may or may not help at all and possibly be *more* harmful.

- Dominic

On Nov 26, 5:46 pm, niisonge wrote:
Do ya'll have any experiences with putting your teas in the freezer?

Sure, in Fujian, tea won't last past 3 months if not stored in the
freezer. This is especially true during the hottest months. It gets
quite hot and humid in southern China, and these light kinds of teas
go bad fast. That's why everything has to be vacuum sealed,
individually wrapped, and stored in a freezer to keep the tea fresh.
Now that's in southern China, where temperature and humidity play a
factor.
There, it's great for storing sheng puer, but not for some qingxiang
type wulong teas.

Flying on a plane over to Toronto, Canada, and onto the Great Lakes,
the climate is much different that that of southern China. Not humid
as in China. And not as hot. I've had some of these lighter type
oolongs stored away for years now. And coming back to Canada, I
thought for darn sure, they would have changed dramatically to become
"old tea". Anyway, since I was jet lagged, I brewed some up one night
at home - and I was astonished at the taste and flavor. It was not a
very expensive tea to begin with, but the taste and flavor were still
pretty good - not having that "old tea" taste, aroma, and color. It
still tasted pretty fresh, not stale at all. So bonus - a 2000 spring
tea, brewed in the winter of 2007 and still holding up!! Pretty
awesome!!

As an aside, there are no freezers "only for tea".

What do you mean there are no freezers "only for tea"? Just about
every tea store in China has at least one. Some stores have 3 or 4
freezers. And they're pulling bags of tea in and out of freezers all
the time. Heck, if you go to Anxi, people have small freezers or
fridges in their offices and homes just for tea. They don't mess
around over there. They know their teas deteriorate fast because of
the climate - even if they're vacuum sealed. So they keep them under
cold storage all the time. People are pretty freakin demanding when it
comes to tea in Fujian. They don't like drinking stale, old tea; or
even cheap tea. So they don't fool around. Tea has to be fresh here.

Very interesting post. I've had similar experiences. In Taiwan my
nice green oolongs used to stale very quickly, but last year I cracked
open a bag of gaoshan oolong that had been sitting in closets in New
England and New York for about four years and found that it was very
fresh still had that high smell that is usually the first thing to
go. It was vacuum packed in one of those half-jin bricks.

i keep my long jing green tea in the freezer with few layers on
plastic wrapping it. stay fresh all year long

Yes, minus 18 deg C is necessary and no fluctuations

Then by your definition, I know NO places in China, I've seen, that
have a true freezer to store tea. I would guess most of the places
around in Guangdong use refrigerators. I've even seen open faced
fridge units used for storing drinks in a supermarket used for storing
cold drinks. Also, I've seen smaller units used for storing ice
cream. This was in Fangcun, mind you; not some local slop-shop.

On Nov 28, 9:17 am, Mydnight wrote:
Yes, minus 18 deg C is necessary and no fluctuations

Then by your definition, I know NO places in China, I've seen, that
have a true freezer to store tea. I would guess most of the places
around in Guangdong use refrigerators. I've even seen open faced
fridge units used for storing drinks in a supermarket used for storing
cold drinks. Also, I've seen smaller units used for storing ice
cream. This was in Fangcun, mind you; not some local slop-shop.

Exactly why I wrote "There seems to be some confusion in some other
mails to this thread
about the difference between refrigerators (fridges) and freezers".
Though when I worked in remote tea growing areas in China in the mid
80s I never saw even a refrigerator.

Nigel at Teacraft

niisonge wrote:

Yeah one thing though, you might see a nice display at some tea store
when you walk in. But if you hear majong tiles clicking in the back,
run for it!!! That kind of place is not a real tea store - it's just a
front for a gambling operation. Well, at least, they would rather play
majong than be serious about tea, hahahahaha.

I don't understand this at all. You cannot play majong without drinking
lots of tea. It would be like playing baseball without beer, or playing
poker without bourbon. It would seem that a place where people are
illegally playing majong would be an excellent place to find tea!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Nov 28, 7:43 am, Nigel wrote:
On Nov 28, 9:17 am, Mydnight wrote:

Yes, minus 18 deg C is necessary and no fluctuations

Then by your definition, I know NO places in China, I've seen, that
have a true freezer to store tea. I would guess most of the places
around in Guangdong use refrigerators. I've even seen open faced
fridge units used for storing drinks in a supermarket used for storing
cold drinks. Also, I've seen smaller units used for storing ice
cream. This was in Fangcun, mind you; not some local slop-shop.

Exactly why I wrote "There seems to be some confusion in some other
mails to this thread
about the difference between refrigerators (fridges) and freezers".
Though when I worked in remote tea growing areas in China in the mid
80s I never saw even a refrigerator.

Nigel at Teacraft

You probably didn't see that many phones or lightbulbs either, for
that matter. It was a pretty different place then.

I don't understand this at all. You cannot play majong without drinking
lots of tea. It would be like playing baseball without beer, or playing
poker without bourbon. It would seem that a place where people are
illegally playing majong would be an excellent place to find tea!

Actually, there are teahouses that do have majong tables in private
rooms, along with televisons, and - of course, a gongfu tea set. It's
a leisurely - but also expensive way to gamble. There's a room fee,
then a fee for the tea, then a fee for the snacks, and maybe even a
fee for the service. It all adds up. But still, people do go to those
places.

It's the die-hard majong players you have to watch out for. That's
where these clandestine tea shops come in. The set up a storefront -
that looks like it's on the up and up. But in the back, they got rooms
for playing majong. Lots of cigarette smoke. Not a nice place to buy
or drink some tea. And these guys don't want to be drinking too much
tea in the middle of gambling - otherwise they will have to get up all
the time and go to the toilet.

On 11/26/2007 10:19:09 "Dominic T." wrote:

Vendors still insist the greens and lightly roasted (qing xiang) wulongs

benefit in freshness from keeping them in the freezer. They use
allusions to fresh green vegetables as an example but I'm wondering how
much of this is actually beneficial. They also claim that special types
of freezers are required to maintain proper storage of these teas at a
certain temperature.

It seems to me the only benefit for keeping wulongs like tie guan yin in
the fridge is that it will help to amplify the astrigency of the tea.
This seems especially so for spring teas that are naturally more
astrigent.

Do ya'll have any experiences with putting your teas in the freezer? I
sorta think that it makes the chemical flavorings more poignant.

As an aside, there are no freezers "only for tea".

Again, as with any new hyped thing, common sense pays off. Tea has been
enjoyed successfully for a lot longer than freezers and even electricity.
A container as air tight as possible, opaque and stored in a fairly normal
temp. range (60-80 degrees F) is just fine.

Any benefit from it is going to be offset by any number of factors and
issues that could be introduced. There's always someone trying to invent
a better mousetrap, but the reality is that the tried and true method
remains for a reason.

Dominic, I am the proud owner of and friend to a small pile of pet mice. I can assure you that among my (human) friends are a couple who've invented mouse traps that are cheap, can be constructed by a five year old child out of household goods, and work 10 times better than the old conventional type, plus they do no harm. Ahimsa: the way to go. As for tea, that which you enjoy today was for the most part completely unknown to Yu Lu, fisted Ti Guan Yin coming first and foremost to mind. So, I hear your argument, but...

Now, I know that freezing many different kinds of wet veggies, meats, and other food stuffs can radically change their consistency by breaking down whatever gets broken down to change the consistency of said foodstuffs. So, I'm wondering whether freezing would alter the structure of the tea leaves, not for the better. After all, tea leaves must retain *some* moisture content. Just speculations based on nothing. Would accept serious comments on this.

Michael