I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

On Oct 22, 2:17 pm, Ferris wrote:
I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

They are definitely different teas. Quality is quality. A Darjeeling
is neither an Assam or a Nilgiri.
They taste differently. They look and smell differently.
Considering them all in the same ballpark is comparing apples and
oranges. It all depends on what you're looking for in a tea.
Shen

On Oct 22, 5:17 pm, Ferris wrote:
I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

On Oct 22, 5:17 pm, Ferris wrote:
I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

I don't think of darjeelings as black teas at all. They taste closer
to
greens to me. I do like them better than assams and Nilgiri teas
although
some assams are also very good (but also very expensive).

It depends on your taste. You should try some fairly expensive Darj
and some expensive Assam and see which you like better. I think
almost all if not all Nilgiri teas are cheap. I only bought one and it
wasn't bad at all for the price.

Price difference does not necessarily mean that one tea will be
better than the other, but some very expensive teas are really
tasty and I haven't been able to find equally good but cheap
teas so far. I think a truly amazing tea at cheap price would
be a great find and probably won't last for long because everybody
will flock and buy it out.

It's not crazy that some tea may cost very much more than another.
But whether you'll like it is another thing entirely.

There's not that much real Darjeeling produced each year, and of that only a
small percentage is high-quality, single-estate tea. For those of us who
esteem it it's worth the price. As others have suggested, you'll have to
try it and judge for yourself.

Keep in mind, though, that Darjeeling can be cranky to brew properly; it's
easy to brew it improperly and then assume it's muck. Brew it as you would
a high grade oolong, and a premium Darjeeling can be a very rewarding
experience.

Regards,
Dean

"Ferris" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

Ferris wrote:
I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

Much of it is name value, and much of it is the fact that most of the
darjeelings are a very different style.

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

Well, they are a totally different style tea these days. If you like
the Darjeeling but don't want to pay as much, consider some of the
Sikkim teas that are less oxidized. They have much of the Darjeeling
character for less.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

snip

I don't think of darjeelings as black teas at all. They taste closer to
greens to me. I do like them better than assams and Nilgiri teas although
some assams are also very good (but also very expensive).

Curiously, once upon a time, Darjeelings were produced much darker than they are now, or so they say. The greener style is a rather modern development since so many people in North America and Europe want them that way. I'd say they are more analogous to Oolongs since they are subjected to a certain amount of oxidation. But, they are so distinct that they deserve a category of their own. That's my opinion. I'm told that 10 times more "Darjeeling" is sold than produced. Most likely true. The customer will always be supplied.

snip

Michael

Michael Plant wrote in
:

....
Curiously, once upon a time, Darjeelings were produced much darker
than they are now, or so they say. The greener style is a rather
modern development since so many people in North America and Europe
want them that way. I'd say they are more analogous to Oolongs since
they are subjected to a certain amount of oxidation. But, they are so
distinct that they deserve a category of their own. That's my opinion.
I'm told that 10 times more "Darjeeling" is sold than produced. Most
likely true. The customer will always be supplied.
...
Michael

If memory serves, the Darjeelings sold in NYC's Little India were more
definitely black teas in 1979, when I first was taught to make masala
chai. Of course, what you say about the 90% ratio of false D.'s was
probably true then too (perhaps with a lower percentage because there
was less of a demand in the Eurocentric market back then?), so I don't
absolutely know if the stuff I bought as "Lopchu Estate" off the shelves
in the Pleistocene was real to begin with...

Ozzy

On Oct 24, 1:06 am, Michael Plant wrote:
Curiously, once upon a time, Darjeelings were produced much darker than they are now, or so they say. The greener style is a rather modern development since so many people in North America and Europe want them that way. I'd say they are more analogous to Oolongs since they are subjected to a certain amount of oxidation. But, they are so distinct that they deserve a category of their own. That's my opinion.

N. Oxidation is limited by using a very hard wither (dries the leaves
out). Biological systems need water in which to react - low water =
little oxidation. Very hard wither can be done at high elevation and
low humidity (thus early season flushes and tops of mountains are
conducive). Cannot be achieved in wet - hence "Rains Darjeelings" and
"Autumnal Darjeelings" have the black tea character that they used to
have before hard withering became the norm (in the 1950's).

M I'm told that 10 times more "Darjeeling" is sold than produced.
Most likely true.

N. Most likely untrue. Unfortunately the comprehensive International
Tea Committee "Green Book" of tea statistics does not show Darjeeling
as a separate producing area and neither does next best source F O
Licht's "World Tea Markets Monthly" (curious - but the Indians have
always been coy about Darjeeling production) however it is generally
agreed that current production is between 10,000 and 11,500 tonnes
annually. Ten times this amount means selling at least 100,000 tonnes
of "faux Darjeeling" - around 7% of all the tea exported for world
trade whereas Darjeeling is virtually absent from sale in the really
big tea drinking countries. In the days when tea statistics were my
job it was reckoned that the dilution was around 2 to 3x at most.

M The customer will always be supplied.

N. Correct. Darjeeling is mostly cut/diluted/blended with the very
similar orthodox teas from Nepal - grown on the other side of the same
mountains, and made by tea makers trained in Darjeeling. Nepali
orthodoxes can be very good but "the customer" in his ignorance
prefers an expensive bad Darjeeling to a good inexpensive Nepali - as
ever brand loyalty overcomes sensory discrimination. Hence the use of
the Nepal grown teas (just a mule trek away) for cutting the
Darjeelings. To be fair to the Darjeeling producers I should point
out that most of this adulteration occurs in Calcutta rather than in
Darjeeling itself.

It is worth noting that Darjeeling tea marks 'Darjeeling' and
'Darjeeling logo' are now legally protected for Geographical
Identity. In order to protect as GI, the Tea Board of India
registered the marks in various countries, including the United
States, Canada, Japan, Egypt, and the United Kingdom and some other
European countries, as a trade mark/CTM. UK Trade Registry granted
registration of the word 'Darjeeling' as of 30 March 1998 under the UK
Trade Marks Act 1994. The United States has also accepted the
application of the Tea Board for the registration of 'Darjeeling' as a
CTM in October 2002. Misuse is monitored by Compumark and policed by
Tea Board of India.

Nigel at Teacraft

On Oct 23, 2:17 am, Ferris wrote:
I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

it feels really good when people are looking for quality indian teas.
i pesonally get a feeling that indian teas are being recognised and
that makes me jump my seat.

tradional darjeelings will be black in appearance or rather brown
black, the infusion will be coppery, the cup will be dark brown or
reddish and you can see till the bottom very clearly. go for a pure
second flush muscatel 2007 from a reputed single estate like margarets
hope, caselton , jungpana, goomtee , makaibari... you will be able to
find out why exactly darjeeling teas are sold ten times more than what
is the actual produce.

according to me www.teasource.com is one of the sources that carries
tradional darjeelings rather than the fancy new type greenish, less
oxidized darjeelings. give it a try - its worth it!

there is a vast diffrence between darjeeling, assam and nilgiri. the
first point being their growing conditions, secondly the altitude,
thirdly the soil... makes it all very diffrent.

sincere regards
ankit

Nigel writes:

[...]

Oxidation is limited by using a very hard wither (dries the leaves
out). Biological systems need water in which to react - low water =
little oxidation. Very hard wither can be done at high elevation and
low humidity (thus early season flushes and tops of mountains are
conducive). Cannot be achieved in wet - hence "Rains Darjeelings" and
"Autumnal Darjeelings" have the black tea character that they used to
have before hard withering became the norm (in the 1950's).

So were even first flush Darjeelings fairly black in the '50s? If so,
I wonder how they withered the tea then - less time or what?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Oct 24, 2:54 pm, Lewis Perin wrote:

So were even first flush Darjeelings fairly black in the '50s?

Interesting point Lew and subject for a history lesson: in the 1950's
nobody really craved the First Flush. Germany was in disarray. The
UK market for Darjeelings was dominated by J Lyons & Co and I quote
Michael Adams (Tea International Journal Vol 3 (2) #9, of 1995) "in
those days J Lyons & Co were the major buyers of second flush tea and
their choice had an influence on the method of manufacture followed by
the planters. Their preference was for well fermented teas which made
full and mellow liquors, whereas under-fermented teas are thinner and
greenish". Lyons blended their "black" Second Flush with Assams.
Brews were strong in the Corner Houses - nearly 6 grams in a half pint
tea pot - dispensed volumetrically into the pot before it was filled
by the Lyons Nippy - the famous waitresses in black dresses and white
caps and pinnies.

In 1967 Lyons' Catering Department had a change in market strategy and
discontinued the Maison blend which used the ever more expensive
Darjeelings; Germany with post war wealth had begun to re-enter the
market for greenish hard withered Darjeelings it had pioneered before
WWII, and Russia began barter dealing arms for the black Darjeelings
Lyons had been buying, but the Russians could afford inflated prices.
From 1967 until the 1980s Darjeeling was virtually unknown in the UK.
Even in 1995 when Tea International Journal organized a tasting they
found that out of 11 retail packed samples available only 3 had "a
recognisably fine Darjeeling flavor".

I wonder how they withered the tea then - less time or what?

Blacker tea is easier to make - softer wither, deeper spread on teh
troughs, less airflow, same time

Nigel at Teacraft

snip


M I'm told that 10 times more "Darjeeling" is sold than produced. Most
likely true.

N. Most likely untrue. Unfortunately the comprehensive International Tea
Committee "Green Book" of tea statistics does not show Darjeeling as a
separate producing area and neither does next best source F O Licht's
"World Tea Markets Monthly" (curious - but the Indians have always been
coy about Darjeeling production) however it is generally agreed that
current production is between 10,000 and 11,500 tonnes annually. Ten
times this amount means selling at least 100,000 tonnes of "faux
Darjeeling" - around 7% of all the tea exported for world trade whereas
Darjeeling is virtually absent from sale in the really big tea drinking
countries. In the days when tea statistics were my job it was reckoned
that the dilution was around 2 to 3x at most.

I spoke figuratively, thus sloppily. More correct to say that far more teas are sold under the name "Darjeeling" than are grown in Darjeeling itself, as Nigel kindly explained.

M The customer will always be supplied.

N. Correct. Darjeeling is mostly cut/diluted/blended with the very
similar orthodox teas from Nepal - grown on the other side of the same
mountains, and made by tea makers trained in Darjeeling. Nepali
orthodoxes can be very good but "the customer" in his ignorance prefers an
expensive bad Darjeeling to a good inexpensive Nepali - as ever brand
loyalty overcomes sensory discrimination. Hence the use of the Nepal
grown teas (just a mule trek away) for cutting the Darjeelings. To be
fair to the Darjeeling producers I should point out that most of this
adulteration occurs in Calcutta rather than in Darjeeling itself.

I should say that I have enjoyed Temi very much. Unfortunately I haven't tried a true Nepali tea, but see no reason why it can't be excellent. I don't *think* I'm guilty of preferring the expensive bad to the less expensive good, at least in this case.

It is worth noting that Darjeeling tea marks 'Darjeeling' and 'Darjeeling
logo' are now legally protected for Geographical Identity. In order to
protect as GI, the Tea Board of India registered the marks in various
countries, including the United States, Canada, Japan, Egypt, and the
United Kingdom and some other European countries, as a trade mark/CTM. UK
Trade Registry granted registration of the word 'Darjeeling' as of 30
March 1998 under the UK Trade Marks Act 1994. The United States has also
accepted the application of the Tea Board for the registration of
'Darjeeling' as a CTM in October 2002. Misuse is monitored by Compumark
and policed by Tea Board of India.

My question: Would all the formality of registered marks in Western Europe and in North America be taken as seriously in India proper? Also, from what you write, I gather that putting in some non-Darjeeling to "cut" the Darjeeling and thus the cost is the rule; selling whole batches under the name Darjeeling that were not in fact grown in Darjeeling is far rarer. Is that it?

As always, thanks Nigel.

Michael

On Oct 24, 1:11 pm, Ankit Lochan wrote:
On Oct 23, 2:17 am, Ferris wrote:

I am looking to buy some slightly higher grade tea than what I'm used
to and I was looking on Upton's website at their selection of Indian
Black teas. I was amazed at the price disparity between their
Darjeelings and their Nilgiris or Assams. Maybe I'm being naive, but
is that difference really representative of quality? Or is this just
Darjeeling name value?

If I was just going by prices, I'd think that Darjeelings must be so
much better than Assam and Nilgiri that I shouldn't bother with the
latter two. That's a fallacy, right?

it feels really good when people are looking for quality indian teas.
i pesonally get a feeling that indian teas are being recognised and
that makes me jump my seat.

tradional darjeelings will be black in appearance or rather brown
black, the infusion will be coppery, the cup will be dark brown or
reddish and you can see till the bottom very clearly. go for a pure
second flush muscatel 2007 from a reputed single estate like margarets
hope, caselton , jungpana, goomtee , makaibari... you will be able to
find out why exactly darjeeling teas are sold ten times more than what
is the actual produce.

according to mewww.teasource.comis one of the sources that carries
tradional darjeelings rather than the fancy new type greenish, less
oxidized darjeelings. give it a try - its worth it!

there is a vast diffrence between darjeeling, assam and nilgiri. the
first point being their growing conditions, secondly the altitude,
thirdly the soil... makes it all very diffrent.

sincere regards
ankit

Thanks Ankit, once again for enlightening all about Darjeeling Teas.
If I may, I would like to add another angle to your observation.
The topography of Tea growing Districts in India vary most widely in
Darjeeling and Cachar.
More so in Darjeeling, where the variables range from Depth of Soil,
North / South face of the field, Altitude in general, Variety of
Planting Material, Shade Cover to Manufacturing practices in general.
The Quality differs widely within the same estate depending upon the
sections harvested on a particular day. There are estates in
Darjeeling ranging in altitude from 4000 ft to 7000 ft. Harvest from
both these extremes just can not be the same, and Quality comes from
the field, like we all know. Each estate tries to make a balance in
its harvest mix and manufacturing practices, thereby giving some sort
of a consistency to their end product. This also reflect and registers
itself onto the palate of a Taster as Character, which is unique to
each Estate, and becomes its USP. Those who understand and appreciate
this uniqueness would never settle for anything less, and would also
accept seasonal variations in the same stride. But the rest of them
who simply appreciate but do not understand would demand a similar
Tea every time from his vendor. And lo! He cant help but Blend. Toning
Up and sometimes toning Down the Tea. In doing so one may end up
blending some Assam Orthodox or Nepal Orthodox with Darjeeling, and no
respectful Tea Drinker should raise an eyebrow, so long as it is not
sold as "Pure Darjeeling".

Jayesh.