On Oct 25, 4:55 pm, Lewis Perin wrote:
Tea Geek writes:
[...]
1) In Chinese-culture societies (so as to cover both political
descriptions of Taiwan), all teas are brewed with boiling or near
boiling water. But instead of stewing them for as long as us
Westerners do, they'll brew for MUCH shorter periods of time. I do
have personal experience that this works, and you can too. Take, say,
your favorite Yinzhen/Silver Needles white tea and measure out
identical quantities. Brew one at 175 degrees (F) for 3-4 minutes,
and brew one in a full boil water for 15-20 *seconds*. Taste them
side by side. They will probably taste quite different, but neither
will be unpleasant.

There's a lot of truth in this, but I sure wouldn't subject a delicate
green tea to boiling water even for a very short steep. Silver Needle
can probably take this treatment because:

- in a first steep of 15-20 seconds the thick buds barely get
hydrated;

- in subsequent steeps the buds start out saturated with tepid water,
so after you pour on the boiling water the resulting temperature the
tea steeps at will be well short of boiling.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /

or white tea he buds and leaves are so thick that you can't
really compare it with a delicate green.

Having said that, I have recently started drinking delicate greens
(albeit high grade ones) using boiling water.

And get excellent result.

I simply pour the water more slowly and use a small amount of leaves.

All teas have two kinds of flavours: the manmade roasting and
natural floral.

Using a smaller amount of leaves seem to allow me to penetrate to the
inner floral flavours more quickly (and save me money as well).

I have to admit I haven't tested this more systematically, but I
wouldn't be surprised if someone says high temperature brewing
somewhat also works for delicate greens.

Lewis Perin wrote:
... I sure wouldn't subject a delicate
green tea to boiling water even for a very short steep.

Ditto. Likewise for all but highly fermented oolongs, reds and shu
Pu-erh - and for me, I'd apply the logic to all greens.

To my taste, most un- or partially fermented teas respond almost
instantly to boiling water not only by losing some desirable notes, but
(worse) by developing "cooked vegetable" flavors that never go away on
further steeping at any temperature.

It is for this reason that I simply do not believe that even the world's
most experienced tasters can gauge the "quality" of green teas to be
cool-brewed from a boiling cupping. It's not just a matter of mentally
rebalancing a sensory portfolio; there are non-linear chemical changes
going on. Bit like a trapdoor algorithm, for those of you who understand
modern computer security (not me!), or any of the many other processes
in which the output cannot easily be uniquely correlated with the input.

I am mystified by the common practice of "awakening" fisted leaves at
the boil, then steeping the resulting cabbage in tepid water. I almost
always work up from the coolest brew that will make a pleasant taste, to
much higher temperatures when delicate notes are gone anyway.

-DM

Lewis Perin wrote:
That could be useful. But I was proposing something far simpler: just
the out-and-out fallacies. The three I proposed are all falsified by
measurements that have already been taken.

Right - the problem (or not) is that people respond to different
standards of evidence or "proof" - whatever that means. Otherwise the US
would have neither the government it does, nor people complaining about it.

Alan wrote:
I agree with you; in fact, you summarized that entire discussion!
Consensus was that the "rule" to always boil water for tea came from a
time when water safety was more of an issue than it is today. We noted
that boiling the water would drive out desirable oxygen, so bringing
safe water up to the desired temperature should maximize dissolved
oxygen without compromising safety.

A perfect example of one that I consider if not fallacious, then at
least requiring some sort of evidence to merit it's near-universal
repetition in the face of countervailing evidence and much more
plausible explanations for both effect and practice. Science by
consensus is about as useful as history by consensus.

My I modestly suggest, therefore, that veracity is unestablishable to
the universal satisfaction of any forum like this. Instead, if we really
want to help each other and newbies (if they aren't the same), perhaps
an uncontentious version of Alan's suggestion

How about a synopsis of significant discussion? Sort of a "Cliffs
Notes" for tea-lovers. Out-and-out fallacies could be identified as
such, while less-absolute topics could be summarized with the
different schools of thought.

where nothing is deemed absolute, no evidence need be presented, and
there is just a list of "some people believe this, and some the
opposite" propositions? FAA might limit flights of quasi-technical fancy
to safe airspace. And as someone once said, more or less: All truths may
be valid, except those that specifically exclude all other truths.

-DM

I am mystified by the common practice of "awakening" fisted leaves at the
boil, then steeping the resulting cabbage in tepid water. I almost always
work up from the coolest brew that will make a pleasant taste, to much
higher temperatures when delicate notes are gone anyway.
-DM

Having not seen the entire universe of fisted tea awakeners, nor even a properly contrived sampling, I cannot speak for the science of the matter, but I have observed some brewers performing this. While they do use hot water, the water is added quite slowly to the leaves. Thus -- you will correct me if I'm wrong -- the ultimate temperature is somewhat below boiling. Further, they work quite quickly, more quickly than I am capable of. So, I wonder if "at the boil" isn't subjective enough to warrant discussion. Does the tea taste good? We'll just let the mouth make these decisions.
Michael

DogMa writes:

Lewis Perin wrote:
... I sure wouldn't subject a delicate
green tea to boiling water even for a very short steep.

Ditto. Likewise for all but highly fermented oolongs, reds and shu
Pu-erh - and for me, I'd apply the logic to all greens.

To my taste, most un- or partially fermented teas respond almost
instantly to boiling water not only by losing some desirable notes,
but (worse) by developing "cooked vegetable" flavors that never go
away on further steeping at any temperature.

It is for this reason that I simply do not believe that even the
world's most experienced tasters can gauge the "quality" of green teas
to be cool-brewed from a boiling cupping. It's not just a matter of
mentally rebalancing a sensory portfolio; there are non-linear
chemical changes going on. [...]

I hope you aren't assuming that the non-linear changes - let's call
them "cooking" - happen only at or near boiling and that aside from
that it's just a question of how fast the stuff in the leaves comes
out into the liquor. I sometimes brew teas with room-temp water and
*very* long steep times, getting good results with some greens. But
my tepid-brewed tea tastes quite different from tea brewed as cool as
140F, which is considered a pretty low temp by most people. So, in a
sense, brewing Biluochun, say, in a way most people would call quite
conservative still cooks it.

I am mystified by the common practice of "awakening" fisted leaves at
the boil, then steeping the resulting cabbage in tepid water.

Not sure that "tepid" is the right word here. Some dedicated
gongfucians try very hard to make sure that each steep is ultra-hot.

I almost always work up from the coolest brew that will make a
pleasant taste, to much higher temperatures when delicate notes are
gone anyway.

That's certainly one valid way to do it. But I tend to take what I
sardonically call The Tragic View of Brewing Tea: for any one tea,
there's no one method that will get all of the tea's best qualities
into the cup.

Or, looking at it another way, I like to eat lots of foods raw. But
there are lots of foods, including some in the first group, that I
like cooked. I wouldn't want to restrict myself to a raw-food diet.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On 10/30/2007 17:41:06 Michael Plant wrote:

Having not seen the entire universe of fisted tea awakeners, nor even a

properly contrived sampling, I cannot speak for the science of the matter,
but I have observed some brewers performing this. While they do use hot
water, the water is added quite slowly to the leaves. Thus -- you will
correct me if I'm wrong -- the ultimate temperature is somewhat below
boiling. Further, they work quite quickly, more quickly than I am capable
of. So, I wonder if "at the boil" isn't subjective enough to warrant
discussion. Does the tea taste good? We'll just let the mouth make these
decisions. Michael

Anybody see a contradiction in the text above? Haha.
Michael

Michael Plant writes:

On 10/30/2007 17:41:06 Michael Plant wrote:

Having not seen the entire universe of fisted tea awakeners, nor even a
properly contrived sampling, I cannot speak for the science of the matter,
but I have observed some brewers performing this. While they do use hot
water, the water is added quite slowly to the leaves. Thus -- you will
correct me if I'm wrong -- the ultimate temperature is somewhat below
boiling. Further, they work quite quickly, more quickly than I am capable
of. So, I wonder if "at the boil" isn't subjective enough to warrant
discussion. Does the tea taste good? We'll just let the mouth make these
decisions. Michael

Anybody see a contradiction in the text above?

You offering a prize?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
I hope you aren't assuming that the non-linear changes - let's call
them "cooking" - happen only at or near boiling and that aside from
that it's just a question of how fast the stuff in the leaves comes
out into the liquor.

By no means. When I used to cook roast beef, I used the warm oven/all
day method, and got consistently superb results. At the same time, many
chemical changes have quite sharp transitions. It makes sense to cook
meat to a specified internal temperature because a very long time at
just a few degrees less can give the same effective protein
denaturation, etc. of seconds at the target value. And some changes just
don't occur at all in finite time below a particular temperature -
anything involving a phase transition, certain protein foldings, etc. A
relevant example is the clarity and non-astringency of
refrigerator-brewed iced tea, where quite a few essential oils and other
sensory components have nil cold-water solubility and never appear in
the mix. So many chemical effects have an exponential rate or
equilibrium factor that for practical purposes, even absent a
thermodynamic phase transition, there appear to be very sharp
thresholds. (Freshman chemthermo students make jokes about things like
warming firecrackers in the sun all day, vs. a millisecond with a match.)

I certainly believe that high temperatures often work well. I find that
some sheng Pu-erhs and dan cong-type oolongs require hot-and-fast to
avoid more astringency than I prefer. But the cooked-vegetable effect
(which I only find with un-aged, greenish teas) is, to my taste (and
modest relevant knowledge of culinary chemistry) in a different category.

BTW, I consider 140F to be tepid, but that's another personal imprecision.

-DM

DogMa writes:

[...non-linear changes...]

And some changes just don't occur at all in finite time below a
particular temperature - anything involving a phase transition,
certain protein foldings, etc. A relevant example is the clarity and
non-astringency of refrigerator-brewed iced tea, where quite a few
essential oils and other sensory components have nil cold-water
solubility and never appear in the mix.

To your knowledge, does tea's astringency come from a small set of
compounds with known minimum solubility temperatures? I've noticed
that the lack of astringency of some green teas brewed at room
temperature gives them a creamy texture.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[Michael]
Having not seen the entire universe of fisted tea awakeners, nor even a
properly contrived sampling, I cannot speak for the science of the
matter, but I have observed some brewers performing this. While they do
use hot water, the water is added quite slowly to the leaves. Thus --
you will correct me if I'm wrong -- the ultimate temperature is somewhat
below boiling. Further, they work quite quickly, more quickly than I am
capable of. So, I wonder if "at the boil" isn't subjective enough to
warrant discussion. Does the tea taste good? We'll just let the mouth
make these decisions. Michael

Anybody see a contradiction in the text above?

[Lew]
You offering a prize?

Sorry, no prize. Coincidentally, I drank tea with several friends today, and one brought along a Taiwan Oolong, quite green and of high quality, much like the "Day Lily" varietal, whose Chinese name I don't quite recall. The hot and fast method was applied. The tea was delicious: Floral, but with a beautifully balanced bitterness and, aside from that, a pleasing astringency. Balance is the key word here. It was not the best of type I'd ever drunk, being a bit thin, but perfectly delightful nonetheless. There was no hint of vegetal -- read ruined -- flavor to it. While a lower temperature would bring out more floral and less bitter I suspect, I believe you are quite right in your earlier suggestion that no one method can do justice to the entire spectrum of what these teas are capable of.
Michael

Michael Plant writes:

[...Sorry, no prize...]
Coincidentally, I drank tea with several friends today, and one
brought along a Taiwan Oolong, quite green and of high quality, much
like the "Day Lily" varietal, whose Chinese name I don't quite
recall.

Jin Xuan.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I hope you aren't assuming that the non-linear changes - let's call
them "cooking" - happen only at or near boiling and that aside from
that it's just a question of how fast the stuff in the leaves comes
out into the liquor. I sometimes brew teas with room-temp water and
*very* long steep times, getting good results with some greens. But
my tepid-brewed tea tastes quite different from tea brewed as cool as
140F, which is considered a pretty low temp by most people. So, in a
sense, brewing Biluochun, say, in a way most people would call quite
conservative still cooks it.

I couldn't get the Biluochun right until I use a small amount. With a
small amount, any temperature will do it, even close to boiling point,
yielding a sweet, satisfactorily favour. I can imagine the surface
drop technique will do nicely for this tea.

Now I have finished the AAA I am moving off to the Jipin grade ...
hehehe

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

Lewis Perin wrote:
To your knowledge, does tea's astringency come from a small set of
compounds with known minimum solubility temperatures? I've noticed
that the lack of astringency of some green teas brewed at room
temperature gives them a creamy texture.

Latter: ditto. Former: I defer to someone like Nigel who knows vastly
more about tea chemistry than I ever will.

-Alaric

On Oct 31, 3:15 am, Lewis Perin wrote:
DogMa writes:
Lewis Perin wrote:
... I sure wouldn't subject a delicate
green tea to boiling water even for a very short steep.

Ditto. Likewise for all but highly fermented oolongs, reds and shu
Pu-erh - and for me, I'd apply the logic to all greens.

To my taste, most un- or partially fermented teas respond almost
instantly to boiling water not only by losing some desirable notes,
but (worse) by developing "cooked vegetable" flavors that never go
away on further steeping at any temperature.

It is for this reason that I simply do not believe that even the
world's most experienced tasters can gauge the "quality" of green teas
to be cool-brewed from a boiling cupping. It's not just a matter of
mentally rebalancing a sensory portfolio; there are non-linear
chemical changes going on. [...]

I hope you aren't assuming that the non-linear changes - let's call
them "cooking" - happen only at or near boiling and that aside from
that it's just a question of how fast the stuff in the leaves comes
out into the liquor. I sometimes brew teas with room-temp water and
*very* long steep times, getting good results with some greens. But
my tepid-brewed tea tastes quite different from tea brewed as cool as
140F, which is considered a pretty low temp by most people. So, in a
sense, brewing Biluochun, say, in a way most people would call quite
conservative still cooks it.

I am mystified by the common practice of "awakening" fisted leaves at
the boil, then steeping the resulting cabbage in tepid water.

Not sure that "tepid" is the right word here. Some dedicated
gongfucians try very hard to make sure that each steep is ultra-hot.

I almost always work up from the coolest brew that will make a
pleasant taste, to much higher temperatures when delicate notes are
gone anyway.

That's certainly one valid way to do it. But I tend to take what I
sardonically call The Tragic View of Brewing Tea: for any one tea,
there's no one method that will get all of the tea's best qualities
into the cup.

Or, looking at it another way, I like to eat lots of foods raw. But
there are lots of foods, including some in the first group, that I
like cooked. I wouldn't want to restrict myself to a raw-food diet.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hello to all who have posted on the temperature of the brewing water
for green tea.
To my mind, a look at the manufacturing process of green tea may lead
to a better understanding on the subject under discussion.
The texture of the tea flush after steaming (Japanese Method Of Green
tea Manufacture)or after Panning ( chinese method of Green tea
manufacture )becomes soft, which is not the case , in the case of
black tea manufacture.
Further, the flush leaf temperature never reaches the boiling point of
water- during the process of steaming or panning. And during the final
drying of the green tea, the leaf temperatures are less than boilng
point of water.
So an interesting query emerges- in hot brewing. is there any
relation between the optimum brewing water temperature and the
processing temperature achieved by the green tea during its
manufacturing process.Thanks in advance to fellow members who will be
responding to this query.

On Nov 2, 9:56 am, "
wrote:
On Oct 31, 3:15 am, Lewis Perin wrote:



DogMa writes:
Lewis Perin wrote:
... I sure wouldn't subject a delicate
green tea to boiling water even for a very short steep.

Ditto. Likewise for all but highly fermented oolongs, reds and shu
Pu-erh - and for me, I'd apply the logic to all greens.

To my taste, most un- or partially fermented teas respond almost
instantly to boiling water not only by losing some desirable notes,
but (worse) by developing "cooked vegetable" flavors that never go
away on further steeping at any temperature.

It is for this reason that I simply do not believe that even the
world's most experienced tasters can gauge the "quality" of green teas
to be cool-brewed from a boiling cupping. It's not just a matter of
mentally rebalancing a sensory portfolio; there are non-linear
chemical changes going on. [...]

I hope you aren't assuming that the non-linear changes - let's call
them "cooking" - happen only at or near boiling and that aside from
that it's just a question of how fast the stuff in the leaves comes
out into the liquor. I sometimes brew teas with room-temp water and
*very* long steep times, getting good results with some greens. But
my tepid-brewed tea tastes quite different from tea brewed as cool as
140F, which is considered a pretty low temp by most people. So, in a
sense, brewing Biluochun, say, in a way most people would call quite
conservative still cooks it.

I am mystified by the common practice of "awakening" fisted leaves at
the boil, then steeping the resulting cabbage in tepid water.

Not sure that "tepid" is the right word here. Some dedicated
gongfucians try very hard to make sure that each steep is ultra-hot.

I almost always work up from the coolest brew that will make a
pleasant taste, to much higher temperatures when delicate notes are
gone anyway.

That's certainly one valid way to do it. But I tend to take what I
sardonically call The Tragic View of Brewing Tea: for any one tea,
there's no one method that will get all of the tea's best qualities
into the cup.

Or, looking at it another way, I like to eat lots of foods raw. But
there are lots of foods, including some in the first group, that I
like cooked. I wouldn't want to restrict myself to a raw-food diet.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / -Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hello to all who have posted on the temperature of the brewing water
for green tea.
To my mind, a look at the manufacturing process of green tea may lead
to a better understanding on the subject under discussion.
The texture of the tea flush after steaming (Japanese Method Of Green
tea Manufacture)or after Panning ( chinese method of Green tea
manufacture )becomes soft, which is not the case , in the case of
black tea manufacture.
Further, the flush leaf temperature never reaches the boiling point of
water- during the process of steaming or panning. And during the final
drying of the green tea, the leaf temperatures are less than boilng
point of water.
So an interesting query emerges- in hot brewing. is there any
relation between the optimum brewing water temperature and the
processing temperature achieved by the green tea during its
manufacturing process.Thanks in advance to fellow members who will be
responding to this query.

I suspect processing temperature is just a long list of factors that
influences optimum brewing temperature.

White tea is one example - low processing temperature, higher brewing
temperature.

I list below a list of factors affecting brewing, of which water
temperature is just one parameter.

Please feel free to add or modify:

type of leaves:
- degree of oxidation
- degree of delicateness
- shape of leaves (degree of rolling)
- quality of tea (higher quality can tolerate larger temp range)
- how broken the leaves are (broken leaves turn bitter more easily)

water to leaf ratio
- higher ratio gives larger tolerance
- higher quality tea gives larger tolerance

brewing vessel
- how much heat is retained
- the shape, which influences heat retention and leaf expansion (for
gunpoweder, tieguanyin tea)

brewing technique
- length of time steeping
- ambient temperature
- is the brewing vessel heated beforehand (cold vessel said to reduce
water temp by 5 degrees)
- water first or leaves first
- how quicly and slowly water is poured into the cup
- is water pour directly onto the leaves or along the side
- how much movements are created during the pouring process
- how subsequent infusion differs from the first one

water quality (not quite sure the impact but include for completeness)
- type of water (tap, bottled, rain etc)
- water hardness
- addition of other stuff (salt, charcoal etc)

Given the variability, perhaps it is more productive to discuss what
"standard" brewing parameters are first.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com