I don't get a discount. I don't get a commission. Usually, I get the
satisfaction of knowing I've shared something that may interest
someone as it did me.
I am, though, very, very sick of being bullied.
The tyrannical approach with which he seizes this list is disturbing
and pitiable and I am sincerely hoping that someone with some computer
or list savvy can find a way to put an end to this.
For all intents and purposes, it feels as though we are all being held
hostage by this abuse of "freedom of speech".
Unfortunately, these vicious and ridiculous tirades have resulted in
valued members leaving.
I have hesitated to "throw up my hands and surrender" to such
unfathomable nastiness, but to come home from working in a hospice and
then hope to read a good bit about tea and have to suffer through this
verbal battering is too much.
Initially, I thought that if Space Cowboy should appear in anywhere on
any thread, I will not post.
I guess I have to say, he wins. I can't cope with this much more.
Shen

Shen,

Alas this is one of the downsides to forums like this - people can say what
they want without a) thinking how it might be interpreted or received by
others and b) with little or no consequences.

I just add people I can't be bothered with to the 'Blocked Senders List' on
Outlook Express. I don't see his or any other posts I don't want to. Of
course people can change their 'handle', but it's only a matter of time
before their real persona re-emerges and they get added to our Plonk Files
once again.

I know OE isn't the most popular/useful reader our there, but it's free and
allows me to read my news and filter out junk that I don't want to see.
Meets my simple needs perfectly.

Cheers
Mal
Oz

"Shen" wrote in message
ups.com...
I don't get a discount. I don't get a commission. Usually, I get the
satisfaction of knowing I've shared something that may interest
someone as it did me.
I am, though, very, very sick of being bullied.
The tyrannical approach with which he seizes this list is disturbing
and pitiable and I am sincerely hoping that someone with some computer
or list savvy can find a way to put an end to this.
For all intents and purposes, it feels as though we are all being held
hostage by this abuse of "freedom of speech".
Unfortunately, these vicious and ridiculous tirades have resulted in
valued members leaving.
I have hesitated to "throw up my hands and surrender" to such
unfathomable nastiness, but to come home from working in a hospice and
then hope to read a good bit about tea and have to suffer through this
verbal battering is too much.
Initially, I thought that if Space Cowboy should appear in anywhere on
any thread, I will not post.
I guess I have to say, he wins. I can't cope with this much more.
Shen

On Sep 12, 7:59 pm, Shen wrote:
I don't get a discount. I don't get a commission. Usually, I get the
satisfaction of knowing I've shared something that may interest
someone as it did me.
I am, though, very, very sick of being bullied.
The tyrannical approach with which he seizes this list is disturbing
and pitiable and I am sincerely hoping that someone with some computer
or list savvy can find a way to put an end to this.
For all intents and purposes, it feels as though we are all being held
hostage by this abuse of "freedom of speech".
Unfortunately, these vicious and ridiculous tirades have resulted in
valued members leaving.
I have hesitated to "throw up my hands and surrender" to such
unfathomable nastiness, but to come home from working in a hospice and
then hope to read a good bit about tea and have to suffer through this
verbal battering is too much.
Initially, I thought that if Space Cowboy should appear in anywhere on
any thread, I will not post.
I guess I have to say, he wins. I can't cope with this much more.
Shen

I can't speak directly about your particular situation, but I too
really just wanted to give up on this group. I have dealt with more
bullshit behind the scenes than anyone could imagine, and I agree it
gets to be tedious and lose any appeal. I would get strong hate mail
from both the spammers I'd call out (which didn't bother me) *and*
from group members who either fancied themselves "experts" or took on
the attitude of letting people decide for themselves and if they get
taken, so be it. I don't agree with that, and do my part to keep both
members and people who might just roll by from getting taken by known
scammers. It's frustrating.

I've also grown tired of some of the really off the wall stuff and the
super technical babble that really serves no purpose other than to
show off. That kind of thing excludes more than it includes. Sure
sometimes it is legit and very informative, and those are not my point
of contention. Again, not always just because *I* don't like it but
because it pushes away newcomers.

Some might say, so what? Who needs 'em? But fresh blood is always a
good thing. The other problem is that many of the most knowledgable
folks are the most quiet, that doesn't help either. Many forums/
newsgroups tend to fall into an obsessive crowd who has lost sight of
reality and actual enjoyment and becomes just an area of collection/
obsession and this one had a good mix for a change. I've gone into
that obsessive/collection mode myself a few times over the years, but
I've always broke out of it as soon as I saw it rear it's ugly head.
There is a fine line between a hobby/interest and an obession.

I don't really know where to go from here. This group still has some
really amazing folks and I'd hate to think of days not filled with
cool insights and information, but it is certainly a shell of its
former self. I thought leaving was the thing to do, but I also thought
that I was kind of taking the easy way out and not helping in any way.
Not that I'm that important or think I make or break the group, just
that one less is one less.

FWIW, what I saw was a good intentioned move turn out to be something
other than what you had thought... it happens, it happened to me with
that Zong Guo Cha or whatever they were called, and in fairness they
had very good tea but their prices were a bit high. Nothing you can do
but be honest. Maybe taking the bait and arguing over it was just the
wrong choice and it would have been better left with an: I'm sorry if
it's not for you, I was happy with it and wanted to share.

It can get personal, and it can cause you to lose your mind even. I
guess the best option is to just keep on truckin and let it roll off.
Sometimes easier said than done. Don't feed the trolls, as they say.
Or as one of my favorite (but certinly not PC) Internet sayings goes:
Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics,
even if you win your still retarded. You'll never change their mind,
they'll never change yours and when anonymity and non-face-to-face
conversations happen people feel it is their duty to become an ass the
likes of which they never would in real life. That's the Internet,
always has been, always will.

Just my 10 cents worth.

- Dominic

/I just drank some Tai Ping Hou Kui that I'll try to review tomorrow,
and was in a relaxed and happy mood to type a long and drawn out
response. There might be something useful in there somewhere.

On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, "Dominic T." wrote:
On Sep 12, 7:59 pm, Shen wrote:



I don't get a discount. I don't get a commission. Usually, I get the
satisfaction of knowing I've shared something that may interest
someone as it did me.
I am, though, very, very sick of being bullied.
The tyrannical approach with which he seizes this list is disturbing
and pitiable and I am sincerely hoping that someone with some computer
or list savvy can find a way to put an end to this.
For all intents and purposes, it feels as though we are all being held
hostage by this abuse of "freedom of speech".
Unfortunately, these vicious and ridiculous tirades have resulted in
valued members leaving.
I have hesitated to "throw up my hands and surrender" to such
unfathomable nastiness, but to come home from working in a hospice and
then hope to read a good bit about tea and have to suffer through this
verbal battering is too much.
Initially, I thought that if Space Cowboy should appear in anywhere on
any thread, I will not post.
I guess I have to say, he wins. I can't cope with this much more.
Shen

I can't speak directly about your particular situation, but I too
really just wanted to give up on this group. I have dealt with more
bullshit behind the scenes than anyone could imagine, and I agree it
gets to be tedious and lose any appeal. I would get strong hate mail
from both the spammers I'd call out (which didn't bother me) *and*
from group members who either fancied themselves "experts" or took on
the attitude of letting people decide for themselves and if they get
taken, so be it. I don't agree with that, and do my part to keep both
members and people who might just roll by from getting taken by known
scammers. It's frustrating.

I've also grown tired of some of the really off the wall stuff and the
super technical babble that really serves no purpose other than to
show off. That kind of thing excludes more than it includes. Sure
sometimes it is legit and very informative, and those are not my point
of contention. Again, not always just because *I* don't like it but
because it pushes away newcomers.

Some might say, so what? Who needs 'em? But fresh blood is always a
good thing. The other problem is that many of the most knowledgable
folks are the most quiet, that doesn't help either. Many forums/
newsgroups tend to fall into an obsessive crowd who has lost sight of
reality and actual enjoyment and becomes just an area of collection/
obsession and this one had a good mix for a change. I've gone into
that obsessive/collection mode myself a few times over the years, but
I've always broke out of it as soon as I saw it rear it's ugly head.
There is a fine line between a hobby/interest and an obession.

I don't really know where to go from here. This group still has some
really amazing folks and I'd hate to think of days not filled with
cool insights and information, but it is certainly a shell of its
former self. I thought leaving was the thing to do, but I also thought
that I was kind of taking the easy way out and not helping in any way.
Not that I'm that important or think I make or break the group, just
that one less is one less.

FWIW, what I saw was a good intentioned move turn out to be something
other than what you had thought... it happens, it happened to me with
that Zong Guo Cha or whatever they were called, and in fairness they
had very good tea but their prices were a bit high. Nothing you can do
but be honest. Maybe taking the bait and arguing over it was just the
wrong choice and it would have been better left with an: I'm sorry if
it's not for you, I was happy with it and wanted to share.

It can get personal, and it can cause you to lose your mind even. I
guess the best option is to just keep on truckin and let it roll off.
Sometimes easier said than done. Don't feed the trolls, as they say.
Or as one of my favorite (but certinly not PC) Internet sayings goes:
Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics,
even if you win your still retarded. You'll never change their mind,
they'll never change yours and when anonymity and non-face-to-face
conversations happen people feel it is their duty to become an ass the
likes of which they never would in real life. That's the Internet,
always has been, always will.

Just my 10 cents worth.

- Dominic

/I just drank some Tai Ping Hou Kui that I'll try to review tomorrow,
and was in a relaxed and happy mood to type a long and drawn out
response. There might be something useful in there somewhere.

Thank you, both.
I will take your insight to heart.
I am setting up my OE tonight.
Whatever may come, I do really appreciate (Dominic) your articulate
and affectionate approach to green teas and whether I contribute or
not I will enjoy reading your reviews.
Shen

hostage by this abuse of "freedom of speech".
Unfortunately, these vicious and ridiculous tirades have resulted in
valued members leaving.
I have hesitated to "throw up my hands and surrender" to such
unfathomable nastiness, but to come home from working in a hospice and
then hope to read a good bit about tea and have to suffer through this
verbal battering is too much.

Ya, I'm sorta with you guys too. I've gotten into the strangest
arguments here, with seemingly little outcome, that often came down to
name calling and ad hominem. It always sorta burns me up when people
tell try to tell me how much they know about China when I live here
and see the things everyday. Then they can use that against me and
say my view is biased or something.

Initially, I thought that if Space Cowboy should appear in anywhere on
any thread, I will not post.
I guess I have to say, he wins. I can't cope with this much more.
Shen

He does like to ramble like us all, but, why don't you just ignore
him? Is it so serious to read everything that he, or anyone else,
posts and reply in anger? Sometimes you just have to let it go.
Experienced "forum", BBS, or NW goers have had their fair share of
arguments...but it comes down to one thing. You can simply walk away
from the computer, have a cup of good tea, and relax.

On 2007-09-13, Here I Am wrote:

I just add people I can't be bothered with to the 'Blocked Senders List' on
Outlook Express. I don't see his or any other posts I don't want to. Of
course people can change their 'handle', but it's only a matter of time
before their real persona re-emerges and they get added to our Plonk Files
once again.

For those reading news via Google Groups, I believe someone made a
killfile extention for Firefox.

w

Who is Space Cowboy?

Phyll

On Sep 13, 12:25 pm, Mydnight wrote:
Ya, I'm sorta with you guys too. I've gotten into the strangest
arguments here, with seemingly little outcome, that often came down to
name calling and ad hominem. It always sorta burns me up when people
tell try to tell me how much they know about China when I live here
and see the things everyday. Then they can use that against me and
say my view is biased or something.

Heh, that's one of my favorite stupid arguments online. Arguing with
someone who LIVES in a place because you fancy yourself an "expert." I
also particularly enjoy those who try to pick nits with me on
technical issues/forensics/scammers... umm, I spent a few *years*
working on some still highly classified projects that keep them safe
every day on the Intertoobz but what the hell would I know? Then if
you state your credentials they then act as if you are showing off or
grandstanding. What kills me is that people wouldn't dream of acting
that way in real life: Walk into your Doctor's office and disagree
with his diagnosis then claim that the certificates and diplomas on
the wall mean nothing and are simply his way of showing off. It's
plain stupid, but people find it a normal way of life online.
Everyone's an expert.

I personally find those who live in different areas remark's
fascinating and insightful. How much more relevant can you get than
someone who lives it daily? I just wish I could hear more tales
straight from China.

Oh, and BTW here is a link to a solution for killfiles in Firefox for
Google Groups. It involves the Greasemonkey add-on and a small script.
There are other solutions as well if you search. http://www.penney.org/ggkiller.html

- Dominic

I personally find those who live in different areas remark's
fascinating and insightful. How much more relevant can you get than
someone who lives it daily? I just wish I could hear more tales
straight from China.

Hear hear.

Another instance was when PWK quit the forum because of the banters
here attacking his credentials, even though he did not exert authority
on the subject matter (at least not here) and when in fact he
expressed his thanks to all of those who "educated" him.

I blog about tea (and wine), exchange thoughts and read RFDT to
~LEARN~...or as MarshalN aptly put it, to have a "constant tea
meeting", albeit online.

Phyll

"Phyll" wrote in message
ups.com...
Who is Space Cowboy?

dunno.. must have killfiled him long ago.

On Sep 13, 3:04 pm, Phyll wrote:
I personally find those who live in different areas remark's
fascinating and insightful. How much more relevant can you get than
someone who lives it daily? I just wish I could hear more tales
straight from China.

Hear hear.

Another instance was when PWK quit the forum because of the banters
here attacking his credentials, even though he did not exert authority
on the subject matter (at least not here) and when in fact he
expressed his thanks to all of those who "educated" him.

I blog about tea (and wine), exchange thoughts and read RFDT to
~LEARN~...or as MarshalN aptly put it, to have a "constant tea
meeting", albeit online.

Phyll

Umm, if you are talking about Peter Keen and my views... I stand by
them 100% (1000%). I have zero respect for so called consultants who
offer nothing more than vague ideas and give paid talks. I have worked
in higher education (in technology) for a total now of 5 years as well
as over a decade in the corporate world and volunteer my time to help
educate less fortunate and older folks. I have seen and dealt with
hundreds of Peter Keens, and if you were in my shoes and have dealt
with it as often as myself you'd have very little tolerance for it as
well. Too often in technology the saying: "Those who can do, those who
can't teach" rings true. I pride myself on doing, and researching, and
constantly learning and progressing... the teaching and talks are
ancillary and are more personally fulfilling to me than money. I know
that when I cover a subject, that I am a master of the subject matter
and have actually used and worked with the technology in real-life
situations extensively... not just theory and books, if I can't say
that I don't teach it. I defy you to find many technology
"consultants" "professors" or "trainers" who can say that. I have a
burning fury of pure hellfire for those who do because they are the
problem not the solution. I could make 10 times what I make as a
cheesy "consultant", speaker, and writing fluff books on new
technologies or ethereal ideas with no practicality, I don't. I have
done work in certain situations as a consultant and clients are always
amazed that not only did I listen to them, but I suggested a proper
solution (not buzzwords and a partner technology), and in most cases
actually implemented the solution and supplied training that was
targeted and useful... That's sad when 99% of the time these people
are so used to getting taken and ripped off by "consultants" that only
offer a vague idea and grab a check. It's because they couldn't dig in
and get their hands dirty if their lives depended on it.

I have no respect for scammers and frauds or people who use certain
topics to simply make money or add to their notoriety. Look, no one
can defend someone who is both writing a book and holding a big fancy
tea gathering when they barely know enough to even be considered
competent in the area. Good intentions are not enough sometimes.

In my opinion he ran because his thin veneer of authority was
questioned and academics aren't used to that. It sounds impressive to
tout a list of books and speaking engagements, and in academia many
accept that blindly and assume credibility. I knew exactly who he was
and just what B.S. he was full of, I called him on it, he ran away.
That is far different than attacking someone for a good intentioned
mistake or because they are new/uninformed... which I would never do.

- Dominic

PS, please feel free to question me or anybody... if they are legit
they will happily and calmly offer a response. The only areas of my
personal and professional life I can't divulge are classified projects
that even my fiance/family don't know about.

On Sep 13, 11:32 am, "Dominic T." wrote:
On Sep 13, 12:25 pm, Mydnight wrote:

Ya, I'm sorta with you guys too. I've gotten into the strangest
arguments here, with seemingly little outcome, that often came down to
name calling and ad hominem. It always sorta burns me up when people
tell try to tell me how much they know about China when I live here
and see the things everyday. Then they can use that against me and
say my view is biased or something.

Heh, that's one of my favorite stupid arguments online. Arguing with
someone who LIVES in a place because you fancy yourself an "expert." I
also particularly enjoy those who try to pick nits with me on
technical issues/forensics/scammers... umm, I spent a few *years*
working on some still highly classified projects that keep them safe
every day on the Intertoobz but what the hell would I know? Then if
you state your credentials they then act as if you are showing off or
grandstanding. What kills me is that people wouldn't dream of acting
that way in real life: Walk into your Doctor's office and disagree
with his diagnosis then claim that the certificates and diplomas on
the wall mean nothing and are simply his way of showing off. It's
plain stupid, but people find it a normal way of life online.
Everyone's an expert.

I personally find those who live in different areas remark's
fascinating and insightful. How much more relevant can you get than
someone who lives it daily? I just wish I could hear more tales
straight from China.

Oh, and BTW here is a link to a solution for killfiles in Firefox for
Google Groups. It involves the Greasemonkey add-on and a small script.
There are other solutions as well if you search.http://www.penney.org/ggkiller.html

- Dominic

Thank you and Will Yardley for this tip. It works well!
I'm not a computer person; but, the download instructions were very
easy to follow and it seems to work efficiently.
Shen

I've recently come to the conclusion that information on the internet
can be one step BELOW bathroom grafitti. It takes some amount of
effort to physically go to a public restroom, and may take forethought
to take a writing implement. Many people today spend a good deal of
time in front of a computer, whether for their job or for fun, so it
takes almost no effort to type a few words, click, and off your
message goes into cyberspace. Take a look at comments on a few youtube
videos and you'll see what I mean. Also, notice how many discussions
on IMDB deteriorate as soon as someone disagrees with what someone
else has written. My favorite: accusations of racism when someone
doesn't use the "currently accepted" terms. I remember one thread in
which the poster was accused of all sorts of horribly prejudiced
statements and motives for using the term "oriental" to refer to a
person. Turned out this person who hated Asians was Chinese.

There's no need for anonymous internet discussions to deteriorate to
the lowest common denominator. Why not try to raise them and keep them
at a civil level? Treat posters the same way you would someone
standing in front of you. Disagree without being abusive and
vindictive. Or, if you're someone who doesn't like to read that type
of posting, be glad that you can disagree with someone without
resorting to mud-slinging and name-calling.

We could take a lesson from modern animal training: reward good
behavior and ignore bad behavior. Don't punish bad behavior; any
attention is better than no attention at all. Eventually we'll all be
the better for it.

Alan

P.S. If you want this group to be about tea, then post about tea! If
you want the petty bickering and baiting to stop, don't participate. I
know it's sometimes hard to let someone else have the last word when
that word is negative, but use the anonymity of the internet to your
advantage: what do you care if someone you don't know or respect gets
the last word? Let them have it and feel smug in your own superiority!
(Kidding!)

I agree, though "the medium is the message" and whenever we deal with other
humans (or near-humans) in a medium we are inextricably bound up in that
medium. Which means that it's almost impossible to avoid talking about the
medium itself quite often.

I also agree that posting on anonymous message boards is about as safe as
one can get, and this allows the basest human behaviors toward one another
to flourish.

Having said that, I've killfiled maybe 300 "people" in my time on usenet,
and that removes about 95% of the BS. So, just as in crime and other
things, a tiny percentage is generating the vast majority of the crap.