Bill wrote:

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...

F t B wrote:


"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...



Then why does he keep posting his crap in a sushi newsgroup?



Come on, everybody posts crap on this NG. A news release regarding

dioxins

in fish is not crap no matter how you feel about it.. While you may not
agree with the post, it's just as legitimate a post as any of yours.


Perhaps, but if this guy is always spouting about how much better
wild salmon that can't be used as sushi.. why in a sushi newsgroup.



PS, wild salmon is safe to eat, they serve it around here in many sushi
joints and I've eaten many fish that I've cought as sashimi. It's too

bad

it's not sold on the East coast. But I'm not here to argue about it...

Safe? Are you sure of that?

--
Dan


What a stupid thing to say. Wild salmon is sold in Sushi restaurants and
stores throughout the Pacific region on and offshore and I'm sure it's
available on the East Coast. Logcher thinks this is his personal forum and
it only should include sushi interest as it relates to his own back yard.

Not at all stupid. The salmon eaten around here as sushi is all farmed Atlantic
salmon. Pacific salmon has a higher risk of parasitic infestation, and should
not be used for sushi.

Just because they server it throughout the Pacific region doesn't mean its
safe. Perhaps they brine it for you, to make it safer.

--
Dan

Michael wrote:

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...

Sam Salmon wrote:


On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:56:27 -0500, Dan Logcher
wrote:


That's fine for people who can get wild, but we on the East Coast
cannot get it as easily or cheaply. And for the record, I'm perfectly
satisfied with farmed salmon for sushi.


I just got a few sides of Copper River salmon at the Super Target for $6/#.

Some people told me where I can get wild salmon, so I'll be checking that
out tomorrow. I held off buying farmed salmon when I was at the super
market. I'll post prices when I know them, to see how they compare.

--
Dan

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...

Sam Salmon wrote:


On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:56:27 -0500, Dan Logcher
wrote:


That's fine for people who can get wild, but we on the East Coast
cannot get it as easily or cheaply. And for the record, I'm perfectly
satisfied with farmed salmon for sushi.


I just got a few sides of Copper River salmon at the Super Target for
$6/#.

Some people told me where I can get wild salmon, so I'll be checking that
out tomorrow. I held off buying farmed salmon when I was at the super
market. I'll post prices when I know them, to see how they compare.

At $6/# the Copper River salmon was on special. I would expect you'll find
it at about $9-12/#.

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...

F t B wrote:


"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...



Then why does he keep posting his crap in a sushi newsgroup?



Come on, everybody posts crap on this NG. A news release regarding

dioxins

in fish is not crap no matter how you feel about it.. While you may not
agree with the post, it's just as legitimate a post as any of yours.


Perhaps, but if this guy is always spouting about how much better
wild salmon that can't be used as sushi.. why in a sushi newsgroup.



PS, wild salmon is safe to eat, they serve it around here in many sushi
joints and I've eaten many fish that I've cought as sashimi. It's too

bad

it's not sold on the East coast. But I'm not here to argue about it...

Safe? Are you sure of that?

--
Dan


What a stupid thing to say. Wild salmon is sold in Sushi restaurants
and
stores throughout the Pacific region on and offshore and I'm sure it's
available on the East Coast. Logcher thinks this is his personal forum
and
it only should include sushi interest as it relates to his own back
yard.

Not at all stupid. The salmon eaten around here as sushi is all farmed
Atlantic
salmon. Pacific salmon has a higher risk of parasitic infestation, and
should
not be used for sushi.

Just because they server it throughout the Pacific region doesn't mean its
safe. Perhaps they brine it for you, to make it safer.

--
Dan

I asked my local itamae that sells wild sockeye. He freezes it before he
uses it, never brines it, now before you jump up and say that you don't have
a commercial freezer, he said a home unit will work fine, you just need to
freeze it longer. He also said the likelihood of finding a parasite is very
rare and agreed it was blown out of proportion. He's the one that gave me
instructions about four years ago how to deal with the salmon I catch. My
children, my wife and friends have eaten lots of salmon prepared this way
over the years with no side effects ever.
Again, I'm not gonna get into an argument about this, but I thought you
might want to know.
Cheers..

Blair P. Houghton wrote in message .. .
F t B wrote:
People can live in denial all they want, but it's clear that farmed salmon
is an infirior product to wild on all accounts.

We've been through this. No, it is not.

Wild salmon has pathogens too, but the salmon-fascists
won't tell you that.

I've compared the two side-by-side, and whether it's due to
the original product or the distribution and processing,
the wild salmon was not as good as the farmed salmon for
texture and flavor. It had *more* flavor, but it was a
less pleasant flavor.

This is in Arizona. I don't doubt if you could get the
fish at the docks in the Northwest you'd be better off
doing that, because it'll be fresher and less damaged,
and because even the best will be cheaper for not having
any transportation costs to cover.

But the rest of the world doesn't live in the Northwest.

--Blair
"It was 78F and golfy here today."


I live in the northeast part of Massachusetts, far outside of Boston.
I make my own sushi 'cause it can get rather expensive eating out all
the time. My point is this. I have a number of good fish markets that
I frequent, and a know more than a few supermarket seafood dept
managers. From what these people tell me, it's all a crap shoot. You
can get just as sick off of frozen imported salmon. Personally I have
little problem eating the farm raised salmon. The stuff I get comes
out of Maine, on ice. I have 3 places I usually buy it, one being a
supermarket. I have little concern for freshness, there is a large
local asian community here. Most days the whole case gets replenished
2 -3 times.
And 9 times out of 10, I can get a damn fine fillet off one in the
icebox, not one that has been sitting in the case for even a few
hours. Sounds like a good case for sashimi.

Lately, the price has been hovering about 5 to 6$ Lb., skin on. Not
bad at all, considering skinless "loin cuts" at the different markets
are 3 dollars a lb. more. And then they cut off most of the belly
meat!!! These days I eat more salmon than tuna because I can get it
that fresh and that cheap. Wild salmon (when I can get it) is usually
7- 10 bucks a Lb. More often than not, it's frozen.

That being said, I am trying not to be ignorant about this whole
topic. It sounds to me like a lobbyist supported ****ing contest. What
are they trying to do scare us? I have a greater chance of dying from
secondhand ciggy smoke. And I don't smoke to begin with. I think it's
a bit strange actually. The whole point behind salmon farming was to
conserve wild stocks. Correct me if I am wrong, but those wild stocks
were/are overfished to the point where the fishery is unsustainable.
If the wild stocks are gone, then what are we left with?

Sam Salmon wrote:
Sam Salmon wrote:
Please Note-Blair P Houghton is a liar/shill/tout/pimp and homosexual
pervert of the most nauseating variety-that is why the Salmon Farming
industry hires him to promote their poison.

That pretty much validates your credibility.

Yes I was loaded when I posted last night.

And tonight you're fired.

However-'in vino veritas'....

Only if you're drunk enough to believe it.

--Blair
"Go bother rec.pets.cats"

Jim S. wrote:
That being said, I am trying not to be ignorant about this whole
topic. It sounds to me like a lobbyist supported ****ing contest. What
are they trying to do scare us? I have a greater chance of dying from
secondhand ciggy smoke. And I don't smoke to begin with. I think it's
a bit strange actually. The whole point behind salmon farming was to
conserve wild stocks. Correct me if I am wrong, but those wild stocks
were/are overfished to the point where the fishery is unsustainable.
If the wild stocks are gone, then what are we left with?

The point of farming is it makes money even though there are
fish running up the rivers.

Salmon stocks in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia
are nearing record levels, but farming is more economical.

So the problem fisheries are facing there is that they are
catching record numbers of fish and selling them at record
low prices, which are made doubly-low because they compete
with farmed salmon for the generic-salmon consumer market
(chain restaurants, ordinary supermarkets, etc).

They aren't penniless, clearly, because they're pouring plenty
of money into this PR campaign to demonize salmon farming.

That's too bad, because if they ran a positive campaign
touting the natural character of wild salmon, and improving
distribution so it would arrive at the grocery in the same
clean, firm, fresh condition as farmed salmon, then they'd
be able to charge 20-200% more per pound (depending on whether
it's chum, king, or something in between).

--Blair
"Take a clue from the fishes.
Adapt or become extinct."

Blair P. Houghton wrote in message .. .

The point of farming is it makes money even though there are
fish running up the rivers.

Salmon stocks in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia
are nearing record levels, but farming is more economical.

So the problem fisheries are facing there is that they are
catching record numbers of fish and selling them at record
low prices, which are made doubly-low because they compete
with farmed salmon for the generic-salmon consumer market
(chain restaurants, ordinary supermarkets, etc).

They aren't penniless, clearly, because they're pouring plenty
of money into this PR campaign to demonize salmon farming.

That's too bad, because if they ran a positive campaign
touting the natural character of wild salmon, and improving
distribution so it would arrive at the grocery in the same
clean, firm, fresh condition as farmed salmon, then they'd
be able to charge 20-200% more per pound (depending on whether
it's chum, king, or something in between).

--Blair


Good points Blair. I think you left out a few though. First is that
commercial salmon fishing is a somewhat seasonal thing. Toss in foul
weather, foreign competition and the always wallet snatching
government... that is more than enough to keep fishermen off the
water.

read the Commercial news from Alaska:
http://www.afjournal.com/news/index.asp

Second point is about bycatch. For those who do not know what it is,
bycatch is whatever else is found in fisherman's nets along with the
desired species. In some fisheries there is a huge amount tossed out
compared to what is kept. It's a huge waste; Fishermen have to
seperate it from what they are licensed to take; it's usally thrown
over the side, and most of it dies. FYI, shrimp trawlers are the WORST
offenders for bycatch, resulting in over 30% of the total globally.
Most salmons are caught in trawl or seine nets. Fishermen are licensed
for only a few species and cannot keep undersized fish. (those sizes
are specified by the govts involved.) So whatever isn't targeted goes
back over the side. Ditto for undersized fish. A large amount of this
catch dies, 60% in some species. Point is, fish farms produce very
little bycatch.

Third point is about the taste differences. All things being equal,(
and they never are) the average consumer doen't know whether they are
eating wild or farm raised fish. Some top restaurants serve wild
salmon as a premium dish; However, chefs will tell you that it's far
easier to cook the uniformly flavored farm raised fish.
Buying for sushi/ sashimi is a different matter. It's all a matter of
taste. A lean fish caught at sea tastes totally different than one
caught close to spawning time. In any case wild salmon is stronger
tasting. The same cannot be said of farmed fish. Be it mild or wild
it's all good.


Jim

On 13 Jan 2004 20:11:50 -0800, (Jim S.)
wrote:


That being said, I am trying not to be ignorant about this whole
topic. It sounds to me like a lobbyist supported ****ing contest. What
are they trying to do scare us? I have a greater chance of dying from
secondhand ciggy smoke. And I don't smoke to begin with. I think it's
a bit strange actually. The whole point behind salmon farming was to
conserve wild stocks. Correct me if I am wrong, but those wild stocks
were/are overfished to the point where the fishery is unsustainable.
If the wild stocks are gone, then what are we left with?

I think it's one of those deals where both sides are right and it
doesn't really matter.

I 'm sure the lab tests are correct and the farmed salmon contain more
pollutants. I'm also sure that for the amount most people eat, there's
more danger of choking to death eating it than of dying from the
toxins.

That said, now that there's all this noise about it, I suspect that
the industry will clean up it's act anyway.

Terry

"Terry Carmen" wrote in message
...
On 13 Jan 2004 20:11:50 -0800, (Jim S.)
wrote:


That being said, I am trying not to be ignorant about this whole
topic. It sounds to me like a lobbyist supported ****ing contest. What
are they trying to do scare us? I have a greater chance of dying from
secondhand ciggy smoke. And I don't smoke to begin with. I think it's
a bit strange actually. The whole point behind salmon farming was to
conserve wild stocks. Correct me if I am wrong, but those wild stocks
were/are overfished to the point where the fishery is unsustainable.
If the wild stocks are gone, then what are we left with?

I think it's one of those deals where both sides are right and it
doesn't really matter.

I 'm sure the lab tests are correct and the farmed salmon contain more
pollutants. I'm also sure that for the amount most people eat, there's
more danger of choking to death eating it than of dying from the
toxins.

That said, now that there's all this noise about it, I suspect that
the industry will clean up it's act anyway.

One discussion at the NC Aquaculture Development Conference last year was
that in the past most fish feed was made from "trash" fish and was now made
from at least 50% vegetable sources.

If you wish to attend this year's conference there is still time.

www.ncaquaculture.org

"F t B" wrote in message
news:e21Nb.11942$n44.10818@clgrps13...

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...

F t B wrote:


"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...



Then why does he keep posting his crap in a sushi newsgroup?



Come on, everybody posts crap on this NG. A news release regarding

dioxins

in fish is not crap no matter how you feel about it.. While you may
not
agree with the post, it's just as legitimate a post as any of yours.


Perhaps, but if this guy is always spouting about how much better
wild salmon that can't be used as sushi.. why in a sushi newsgroup.



PS, wild salmon is safe to eat, they serve it around here in many
sushi
joints and I've eaten many fish that I've cought as sashimi. It's too

bad

it's not sold on the East coast. But I'm not here to argue about
it...

Safe? Are you sure of that?

--
Dan


What a stupid thing to say. Wild salmon is sold in Sushi restaurants
and
stores throughout the Pacific region on and offshore and I'm sure it's
available on the East Coast. Logcher thinks this is his personal
forum
and
it only should include sushi interest as it relates to his own back
yard.

Not at all stupid. The salmon eaten around here as sushi is all farmed
Atlantic
salmon. Pacific salmon has a higher risk of parasitic infestation, and
should
not be used for sushi.

Just because they server it throughout the Pacific region doesn't mean
its
safe. Perhaps they brine it for you, to make it safer.

--
Dan

I asked my local itamae that sells wild sockeye. He freezes it before he
uses it, never brines it, now before you jump up and say that you don't
have
a commercial freezer, he said a home unit will work fine, you just need to
freeze it longer. He also said the likelihood of finding a parasite is
very
rare and agreed it was blown out of proportion. He's the one that gave me
instructions about four years ago how to deal with the salmon I catch. My
children, my wife and friends have eaten lots of salmon prepared this way
over the years with no side effects ever.
Again, I'm not gonna get into an argument about this, but I thought you
might want to know.
Cheers..


Looks to me like your local itamae confirmed what Dan has been saying.
Raw salmon was never a traditional sushi neta in Japan for that very reason.
In Hokkaido the northermost island Salmon was eaten as sashimi but frozen
first, to either kill or weaken any possible parasites.
The raw salmon served in sushi places in Japan today are imported farmed
salmon.

Jim S. wrote:
Third point is about the taste differences. All things being equal,(
and they never are) the average consumer doen't know whether they are
eating wild or farm raised fish.

I can. Farm raised atlantic salmon is much more delicate
while retaining salmon flavor. It's almost entirely the
reason I started eating salmon again a couple of years ago.
Wild salmon can be downright gamey, which is okay if you're
looking for exactly that sort of experience. The farmed
versions take to various forms of cooking, while the
wild ones are going to scream "fishy" under the strongest
of spices. Which is good if that's what you want, but not
so good for your more subtle seasonings.

As I said, the fisheries have a chance to adapt, but
they're taking an atavistic view of the economic shift,
and it will only end up costing them resources that could
improve their post-adaptation position, while costing
the consumer in needless regulation (e.g., the ridiculous
requirement to label farmed salmon as "color added" even
though the color is obtained in the same way, from the
salmon's food, and the coloring comes from exactly the
same chemical source).

--Blair
"There oughta be a movie."

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Jim S. wrote:

Third point is about the taste differences. All things being equal,(
and they never are) the average consumer doen't know whether they are
eating wild or farm raised fish.


I can. Farm raised atlantic salmon is much more delicate
while retaining salmon flavor. It's almost entirely the
reason I started eating salmon again a couple of years ago.
Wild salmon can be downright gamey, which is okay if you're
looking for exactly that sort of experience. The farmed
versions take to various forms of cooking, while the
wild ones are going to scream "fishy" under the strongest
of spices. Which is good if that's what you want, but not
so good for your more subtle seasonings.

I had wild Alaskan salmon many years ago. I don't recall it
being strong flavored, just that the meat was more of a red
color than orange. I enjoy strong flavored fish anyways, so
that wouldn't bother me.

--
Dan

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Jim S. wrote:

Third point is about the taste differences. All things being equal,(
and they never are) the average consumer doen't know whether they are
eating wild or farm raised fish.


I can. Farm raised atlantic salmon is much more delicate
while retaining salmon flavor. It's almost entirely the
reason I started eating salmon again a couple of years ago.
Wild salmon can be downright gamey, which is okay if you're
looking for exactly that sort of experience. The farmed
versions take to various forms of cooking, while the
wild ones are going to scream "fishy" under the strongest
of spices. Which is good if that's what you want, but not
so good for your more subtle seasonings.

I had wild Alaskan salmon many years ago. I don't recall it
being strong flavored, just that the meat was more of a red
color than orange. I enjoy strong flavored fish anyways, so
that wouldn't bother me.

--
Dan

I have eaten various "wild" salmon and found that the taste varies.
Some have been fairly "strong" while most have really been no different
from farmed atlantic in strength. The color varies too as sockeye seems
really red
and bright, whereas king and coho tend to be more orange.
But even then they are not quite as orange as atlantic.
In Japan the main salmon eaten is chum salmon, which is not highly regarded
in the US.
But with the extent of salt that is applied to it, I don't think I could
tell the taste very
clearly.

"Musashi" wrote in message
m...

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Deletions
I have eaten various "wild" salmon and found that the taste varies.
Some have been fairly "strong" while most have really been no different
from farmed atlantic in strength. The color varies too as sockeye seems
really red
and bright, whereas king and coho tend to be more orange.
But even then they are not quite as orange as atlantic.
In Japan the main salmon eaten is chum salmon, which is not highly
regarded
in the US.
But with the extent of salt that is applied to it, I don't think I could
tell the taste very
clearly.

It's obviously a matter of personal preference but for cooked salmon I much
prefer wild, especially Copper Canyon! Judging by the color and the fact
that it is available year round, I suspect most sushi salmon is farmed and
I've only once had the chef mention wild salmon. This was in Canada and he
was proud of the fact that he had caught the fish himself!


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA